Haha don't worry about sounding like a dbag. As long as you're not flamming anyone, it's all gravy.Originally Posted by indefinite.soul
I said earlier that my main gripe with Firestorm is that it forces you to side out too many cards in my opinion. It's a fine answer against Shaman if that's what you're most worried about. I'm of the opinion that we don't need specific answers to him because he hasn't really been that scary for me. Or at least not as scary as RiP when I'm on the draw.
Team Hammafist-We don't take kindly to those who don't take kindly."Got any trade boogas?"
If we're talking specifically about Firestorm, you will still need to either put 2 dredgers in the GY while casting it against DRS, or keep stuff back. Else they'll just respond to the damage on the stack by removing your single dredger.
If you were just talking about hands in general consider this; if there's a single DRS opposite you and you don't have 2 dredgers there has to be other stuff in your hand. That other stuff better be draw spells to find your answers (in this case dredgers as I won't board in firestorm specifically to combat DRS). If you've got a hand full of land and Narcs or maybe even just some Ichorids and Therapies I call that hand sketchy yes.
And of course I know you can get unlucky. DRS can stop you if you just can't find a good enough hand in mulligans or even if you brick your draws. DRS is better than Squire after all. But DRS just doesn't need a specific sideboard card as the deck is able to beat it on it's own most of the time. So you are better off not diluting your deck if the only thing you face is DRS. Of course DRS decks often play Scooze or extract effects, so you will sideboard anyway. But not Firestorm specifically for DRS.
I agree, people in this thread are talking like they've never seen a Deathrite Shaman backed up by a Force of Will - no way you go into a large tournament without Firestorm in your 75 if you want to top 8, and recent results for Dredge bare that out.
Darkblast isn't for Deathrite Shaman, it's for Peacekeeper.
I'm not actually sure the data show that in the way you think. Do we know for a fact that people with comparable lists and comparable skill are attempting to do so without Firestorm? In other words, we may have correlation, but I don't think we have causation.
I don't really expect to see Peacekeeper in an SCG Open. I think part of playing Dredge is the necessity to be able to say, "Okay buddy, you got it." when your opponent pulls out Peacekeeper or Leyline/Helm in game 1 or whatever.
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Southern USA Regional Coordinator
Maybe, maybe not; all I know is Firestorm was never a MD card in Dredge before Deathrite Shaman, so Deathrite Shaman is clearly the point of Firestorm in the MD as well as in the SB as far as I'm concerned. Judging from my own play testing, I wouldn't go to a tournament without it because it's generically good vs every fair, non blue deck post-board and barring Goblins and Affinity they all pretty much play Deathrite Shaman ironically.
I don't think you should compare Peacekeeper and Leyline, mainly because Peacekeeper is a card that you don't have to scoop to for an invest of 1 card in your deck that you can essentially draw 6 for while not being dead whenever you actually draw it. I usually play the 3/1 Thug/Blast split as a default because the card is just generally useful.
Im with you here, but Firestorm saw MD-play in successfull lists during the Mental-Misstep-Ära (for other reasons obviously). I would MD 2 Firestorms nowadays if I expect a meta full of Shamans to have more outs against them. If your hand is fast, race the little elf, if not, firestorm it away and grind the Matchup out.
No one is running MD Firestorm. And if they are I hope its not to actually combat Deathrite. I've not had issues with this card. The deck churns through itself at a pace in which the shaman cannot keep up (they can't even hit bridges). Firestorm I would say essentially eats up your Putrid Imp slot I would think which I don't like. You need the black creature for Ichorid as well as being a generally useful discard outlet in that you get to keep pitching your cards; helps a lot postboard games when you want to slow roll the cards in your hand.
I don't care that its decent against fair non blue decks because guess what the deck as whole is great against fair non blue decks without it. If anything it puts you into some kind of control deck position where you want to get the most value out of your firestorm before you wait a bit to doll it out. This is contradictory to our game plan of wanting to dredge cards as soon as possible. Not to mention the obvious nonbo with our bridges. And as someone mentioned earlier because Firestorm forces you to discard as an additional cost to play it the deathrite shaman becomes live. I still have my reservations about the card.
As for Darkblast I've tried it and its Dredge 3 has been completely lack luster. I always want the 4th Thug over it. What problematic creatures are you worried about? I would only really care about cards like Thalia because she makes the deck a bit difficult to operate without going into slow dredge mode. But you most likely wont even be able to hit that. So cards like Bob? Lackey? Elves? I just again think it puts you in a control situation. You can't make the game go long by just shooting their dudes eventually they'll find their hate cards or you'll become apprehensive in using it once you've dredge into your bridges (nonbo again).
I've played a Darkblast before, but never because I actually wanted to kill things (although I've wrecked some slower Elves builds with it). Darkblast is useful at fighting through counter walls. In years past I sideboarded it against Threshold because no number of counters could stop you from Dredging if you draw it. I think that dredging that way is probably too slow to be useful against modern Delver speed Threshold decks.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
I owe you a beer sir, couldn't have said it better myself(I tried a page back).
Team Hammafist-We don't take kindly to those who don't take kindly."Got any trade boogas?"
Hi! it's my first post here in the source! I hope I can learn a lot from you guys!
I've seen many dredge lists and I've been playtesting it for a while, but a question allways comes to my mind...
is it worth running a single darkblast over the fourth putrid imp? I mean, it's better than replacing it over the fourth thug and it raises or dredges to 13
sorry for my bad english! It's not my native language XD
Welcome to The Source! Your English is good, just remember capitalization.
Having a 13th Dredger isn't necessarily bad, but it isn't very good either. It could help against Deathrite Shaman by giving you a better chance of having two dredgers to get by him. Or you could even kill a Shaman that is still sick with it, although that isn't likely to come up too often. Anusien brought up a good point a few posts up about it being an easy way to get a Dredger in your grave against blue midrange and tempo decks (as long as they have a guy out).
Having said that, what do you have against Imp? Do you feel like you could do without a stable discard outlet? In my opinion, the deck is fine with 12 Dredgers, but I wouldn't argue against someone who wanted to run a 13th. Some people have had success with only 11, or even 10, but I don't have the cajones to go that low.
Team Hammafist-We don't take kindly to those who don't take kindly."Got any trade boogas?"
Firestorm was played maindeck in the Mental Misstep era, just to let you know :d
But I feel it's really lackluster. If you're worried about Deathrite Shaman, you can always play Pithing Needle in your sideboard, which is WAY easier on the casting cost (Cephalid Coliseum can't cast Firestorm) and solves other problems like artifact hate and Scavenging Ooze.
I agree that Rest in Peace is the most difficult hate to recover, and going fearless without Nature's Claim/Wispmare can work if you mulligan well enough to either hit a fast hand or a Cabal Therapy one. You usually cut gas or draw spells for those anti-hate cards, and they force you to mulligan to really bad hands that might still lose after the hate is dealt with. Dredge by its nature is the aggressor and playing reactive anti-hate is forcing you to change your objective. That's why old-school Pithing Needles are staying in my board for now.
My list:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
3 Ichorid
3 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 Nether Shadow
SB: 2 Dread Return
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
It's been working fine in the past week, Pithing Needle is working overtime.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
Thz! for the tips about darblast!
I think I like darkblast because of my local meta, it's heavily creature based (mostly tribal and delver variations), and darkblast really comes in handy against them.
I have nothing against Pimp, but as a 4 of, he's just ichorid food most of the time and I really preffer when I see something like Careful study or Faithless looting as a discard outlet in my oppening 7, I mean he's good, but I like to have something to use as an out to a troublesome creature even if it is a one of.
Last edited by Vlad Teppes; 09-29-2013 at 01:13 PM. Reason: gramatical errors
1) Yes, people are MDing Firestorm in Dredge - see recent Top 8s
2) No, Firestorm doesn't turn Dredge into a control deck, nor would turning Dredge into a control deck be bad even if it did - you can Lightning Bolt your opponent, remove a one drop and reach Threshold with any Dredger in the deck on turn one or just DDD and clear the board next turn etc. It's no more a "nonbo" with your Bridge from Belows than it is a combo with them, you can choose to destroy your own creatures in order to create Zombie tokens or judiciously trade your Bridge from Belows for their army, - it's no more a "nonbo" with your Bridge from Belows than attacking with any creature on the board is.
3) Deathrite Shaman becomes live vs any discard effect after it loses summoning sickness, the point is to kill the Deathrite Shaman before it loses summoning sickness without sacrificing any tempo by simultaneously discarding as a cost.
4) I already said Peacekeeper, regardless it's an uncounterable discard outlet and Dredger in one card that kills a variety of annoying creatures, from unflipped Delver of Secrets to Green Suns Zenith Dryad Arbors to Grim Lavamancers to Mogg Fanatics to your own Narcomoebas and it's the best feeling in the world whenever your opponent targets it with Surgical Extraction in response to one of your draw spells. I wont fault anyone for not playing it, but it's pretty damn useful fwiw.
This deck actually uses the combat phase to win the game and has to deal with the opponent's board one way or the other. Sometimes you can deal with said board by insurmountable card advantage via draw spells and other times you can deal with it thru' a Wrath of God, neither is necessarily any better than the other. Furthermore I don't know how you can say that this deck doesn't have any problem vs Deathrite Shaman when it does, because you don't always win the coin flip vs Deathrite Shaman and you don't always draw Lion's Eye Diamond vs Deathrite Shaman, and while I don't think Deathrite Shaman is an insurmountable problem without Firestorm it's rather daft to not recognize Firestorm doesn't make Deathrite Shaman any easier to deal with in the course of a three game match.
If you want to play the "all in" game with LED games 2-3 then be my guest, try outracing Deathrite Shaman by discarding your whole hand and walk right into Surgical Extraction for the loss. I really don't know what else to say to convince you, I've been playing Dredge in Legacy for too long in real games to take the whole "ubiquitous game winning hate card has never caused me any problems" argument seriously. If you aren't making any concenssions in your MD or your SB for Deathrite Shaman, then you seriously have the wrong priorities with Dredge.
+1 for this, Sir!
Had anyone tested disruption in the sideboard? (Duress, thoughtseize, inquisition of kozilek or even Unmask)
if yes, is it good? it gives us more info about their hand and might even strip some hate or counterspell for their hand
Perhaps it's worth a shot...
That's the exact maindeck that I'm currently on, and it feels very strong. I've been debating on how to squeeze in the 4th Imp, possibly moving a Breakthrough or Therapy to the sideboard. Which do you all think is stronger for game 1, the 4th Therapy, 4th Breakthrough, or the 4th Imp? Please try and make a case for your reasoning instead of just saying which you prefer.
Vandalize- What's your reasoning for running Chain of Vapor over Nature's Claim? Is it the Reanimator matchup?
I'm not sold on the one of Dread Return targets in the sideboard though. If you flip half your deck over, you only have a 50% chance to hit your sided in target. That doesn't take into account the Dread Return or 3 guys you need either. I prefer to try and run 2 of the one I think will be the best in the meta, or overall more flexible, which I believe is Iona by far.
Team Hammafist-We don't take kindly to those who don't take kindly."Got any trade boogas?"
IMO I'd rather have the 4th imp vs the 4th breakthrough, the main reason is that the deck already has 8 other drawing effects and most of them do nothing when they are in the gy, imp on the other hand give us a beater, a reliable outlet, and is ichorid food when in the gy, the 4th therapy really shines when you are not running DR in the main deck and is our main line of defense against most decks ( not to mention, it gives us more beaters)
All in all I belive that a card that has some value in our hand and in our graveyard is better a card that has value only in our hand. (most of the time)
I'm considering Dredge for this weekend if I can make it, but I haven't practiced with it for a few months. I'm looking for you who play this on the reg. Is the fearless plan better than playing Claim or Chain? I saw somebody was playing Thoughtseize, which sounds really good to be honest. It hits everything we care about proactively in a more absolute-fashion than Chain of Vapor, which seems like the closest card for comparison. Firestorm has been great for me when I didn't play with LED, so I at least want them in the SB. DRS or not, the card is good against most non combo.
Anyone have some gems of advice for the list?
The Quad Cities: twice as nice as the Twin Cities.
So is there still a reason not to run LED?
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