@Kavaki
In a combo-light meta, both P-Fire and Scapewish will be favored. They both have great matchups against the fair decks. I would argue that Scapewish has a better Miracles matchup than P-Fire does, but neither is that bad if you play it right.
Ultimately, I think it comes down to playstyle. I don't like Scapewish; it doesn't feel like Nic Fit to me. Scapewish feels like a very different deck than P-Fire. You're on more of a stalling game plan with Scapewish - until you win on the spot. With P-Fire, you're trying to go one-for-one with your opponent's threats, and eventually land your own to ride out the game. Before you land a threat, P-Fire feels like you're washing their board with a pressure cleaner. It plays more like a tempo deck once you land your threat.
I would not disagree with this comparison.Originally Posted by guelahpapyrus
Its been a couple weeks since I last showed for legacy, but miracles has a small showing there. However the people who play it, play at level very close to Joe Losset, so I feel like it is something I should consider.
After reading both y'alls posts, im still stuck. On one hand, I am a natural combo player as I enjoy the "Oops, I win" appeal, so Scapewish seems like my cup of tea. However I also played Pox (I liked how it played at the time), so I do enjoy the grindy game.
My biggest flaw as a player is SB and evaluating what feels bad in a match-up outside of the obvious "Duress sucks vs. Goblin" type of situations. So im there.
Just a clerical note, but actually there was a GBW Pod version (piloted by Paul Ewenstein) that took 2nd place, I believe, a few years ago -- SCG Providence, I think?
But yeah, in more "modern times," P-Fire is the only top 8 -- Scapewish has picked up 3-4 top 16s, though.
Yeah unfortunately I can't travel as much as I'd like for tournaments
But rest assured, I will be slinging more fires at the Invitational next month.
Poked through some of this thread (it is long, so didn't read all of it).
I'm looking to implement a combination of Punishing Nic Fit+Burning Wish for utility. I really do not like the Scapeshift finish, but love the flexibility Burning Wish offers.
Would love some input on my current deck list which can be found here
Regards,
~Jeff
Wow. Burning wish AND punishing fire? I don't know what to think.
The only thing I have to suggest is taking out the ravine and putting in the 4th Grove & maybe more slaughter games.
Ravine has actually been over performing in all the games I've tested. Fetching it with Primeval Titan is big game - makes them deal with two threats instead of just one.
Generally my first titan trigger grabs ravine and strong hold.
I could get behind more Slaughter Games in the board (to have one or two to board in as opposed to just Burning Wishing for it). Not sure what I want to cut though. Think it is better than a REB?
~Jeff
Dryad Arbor has been universally terrible across all versions of Nic Fit that have been tested here -- obviously trust your own instincts over the talking heads on the internet, but just keep a close eye on it while testing.
I like the Raging Ravine, actually. Part of me wonders if you're going too deep on the utility lands because of your Loam background, but at the same time, I can't deny that it makes your version extremely potent for Primeval Titan. Titan has a variety of powerful targets that can be switched around depending on the board state/matchup, and that's obviously a pretty strong thing.
Not a fan of the 2/3/1 Forest/Swamp/Mountain distribution. Singleton Mountain is strong, and triple Swamp is for when you have a Swamp in hand / tapped-in-play and you want to Explorer into a Liliana, I'm guessing. That's like the only thing that you could really want the third Swamp for, though -- the third Forest seems much more important to me, even though you have the Groves as additional green sources.
Creature base is basically the same as P-Fires, which is generally agreed upon. I'd still like to see some Huntmasters because they've done a ton of work for me in Scape, and, as recently noted, they're arguably better in Punishing lists because you can control the flips much easier. Space is a consideration, though, and aside from that pesky Dryad Arbor I'm not seeing a lot I would cut for Huntmasters.
How has having a Zenith in the board been for you? I tried that for a while in Scape, and while I would sometimes board one out to increase Zenith density in certain matchups, I was almost always happier to have the full set main in game one.
I like the Pyromaster tech. I've been thinking about her a lot lately, for both Scape and other red lists, but I haven't worked up the balls to actually try her. How's she been?
Dreadbore is real bad IMO. It works in Loam because you're a much more mana-light deck there -- you're putting a lot of resources into mana denial and your green is often tied up with Loaming, so you can't afford 2RBG for Pulse -- 1RRB is much easier. In Nic Fit, though, you have much more mana, and while Dreadbore is a redundant Pulse, honestly, I'd rather just see another Pulse if you feel you need a second copy of that effect.
Not running a Pyroclasm to Wish for is kind of a sin. BW-Pyro is a super common line in Scape, both offensively (to set off your Explorers if you don't have a black source) and defensively (kills Geist, elves, empty tokens, and a host of other problems).
The extra Slaughter Games you're wanting are busy being Trinispheres. It's an open question really which one is actually better -- they're both good vs different things. I'd say maybe consider a 2/2 split between Games and 3ball....most of the time vs like, say, Sneak Attack, you're going to be boarding in the Slaughter Games anyway (your prime Wish will be Reverent Silence because of Leyline of Sanctity; if they don't have Leyline, Thoughtseize is usually fine).
Good feedback. I think a 3rd forest over third swamp seems sane, I was simply trying to balance out the black in my mana base since Groves lead to SO much green mana.
Chandra has been very good. Doubly so when I have a top on the field.
Speaking of, my one "flex slot" that I've been moving around is the second eternal witness. It might become the third top. That card is so good.
There are two things I like the Dryad Arbor for:
1.) It lets me use a fetch land to flash back a therapy. Very good VS combo decks.
2.) It lets me play a Primeval Titan into an opposing Liliana and not have it get edicted away.
Huntmaster always felt like a giant do nothing for me. Sure, I can flip him all around with Punishing Fire, but if I have Fire online - why do I need the extra few points of damage from Huntmaster? Feels win more. Most times I'd rather wait till one more mana and get fetch tragglesworth.
That is a really good point on the Dreadbore, I do like having two of that effect, two pulse could be the right answer.
Re: Pyroclasm - do you think the board needs Damnation and Pyroclasm in the Wish package? The main thing Damnation hits that Clasm misses is Goyf/Goose - but deed mops those up.
Finally - 2/2 on Games/Trinisphere seems good. I just like Trinisphere to have *some* form of disruption when my opponent has a leyline out. What match ups do you want three REBs in though? Is it just again Mono-U and high tide?
Thanks for the input!
~Jeff
Wouldn't Garruk, PH be better? Or maybe the third Liliana?
@Jeff:
I know Qweerios was working on a similar idea about a month ago with Burning Wish just as a utility spell. I don't know if he has since abandonded the idea or not but I believe he started talking about it around page 260 or so if you want to check that out.
Have you tried Garruk, Primal Hunter? I still swear he is the best threat to be running in any non-scapewish versions of this deck. He provides so much advantage and beats a Jace or Lily.
You definitely want a 3rd top. The only time I have ever seen anyone have success with Nic fit with less than 3 tops is when they are also running blue and brainstorms. Top completes this deck, and you want to see one every game.
I've never found arbor with while, but as you mentioned when its good, its good. Try arbor out, but dont assume it should be an auto-include because you have GSZ.
I have also been, only unimpressed with Huntmaster in Pfire lists. In scape, hes ok because he stales for a while, but Thrun has always been a boss in Pfire lists because that version excels at keeping the board clear.
I dont think you need 2 pulses. You just dont need dreadbore.
I think both are good. In scapewish at least, pyroclasm is the card I wish for the most, followed by Thoughtseize and Scapeshift. The only carrds pyro doesnt kill are goyf, batterskull, goose and KotR. It litterally kills every other relevant legacy creature. RUG is also an amazing matchup, so dont worry too much about goose or goyf.
I have never tried trinisphere, but I have tried Games. I dont like games at all. Its ok as a 1 of. But most of the time, against combo, you want to be able to interact on turns 1-3 and it would be better if it was just another REB or thoughtseize.
I would run this as the Wishboard:
1 Damnation
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pyroclasm
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Reverent Silence
1 Slaughter Games
1 Haunting Echoes
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
Green Sun's Zenith I think is better maindecked. I tried it in the SB and it was bad. If you want a "creature" in the wishboard, try reanimate. Every time I dont run it, I wish it was there.
Haunting Echoes is not necessary, but it is the best "Oops I win" card besides scapeshift.
Im currently on a Wish Fit brew. In limited testing, I really like it and after reading about it on here (somewhere) and testing it, Tsunami is a very fun card. Maybe a little cute, but I did make a High Tide player walk into it by not going off when he should of and losing counterspells going after 'sieze/cabal.
However, as I said a couple pages back, im being more than open to adjust builds. At leas that means I can play the deck, but run a different cversion every so often to throw people in my meta off.
Couple of problems with peoples' opinions here.
-) Pyromaster is relevant control in that it can, you know, kill things. Like Bobs. Nic Fit doesn't like Bobs. Granted that P-Fire versions can handle that a bit better than other versions, but the ping/noblocks is probably fairly relevant. More importantly, note that Jeff isn't running Sakura-Tribe Elder or Sylvan Ranger as a backup ramp-guy. He's on mono-Explorer. That being the case, the difference between 4 and 5 is very real, and the difference between RR and GGG even more so.
-) Tsunami and Haunting Echoes are still unplayable. It's like Bryant Cook finally finding his jap foil Temporal Fissure. He's gonna troll the everliving fuck out of people with it at his local, but that's where it'll stay. I've tried Tsunami and HE until I was blue in the face. You just don't need it.
-) Reanimate is reasonable, and I share Evan's sentiments that every time I run without it, I wish I had it. However, that's in Scapewish. In Scape, you have an extra Fagtusk, Huntmasters are reasonable targets, extra ramp-guys, etc. In P-Fire, you have so many fewer creatures that your reasonable targets are like, E-Wit, Thrag, and Thrun. Otherwise, you're totally relying on their deck. I mean, 2 life for a 5/6 is always fine, don't get me wrong. But the way I see this list shaping up, you don't really want Burning Wish to be a "bomb," per se -- P-Fire and its iterations have always been heavy control decks, generally relying on either Thrun + Wolf Run or Primeval Titan to kill people. Everything else is to get you to that point. If you feel compelled to put a wishable wincon in the board, I'd honestly say something like Rakdos's Return would be reasonable....something that can turn a lategame Wish into a boomheadshot. I'm really not convinced that anything more than that is necessary or desired.
-) @Jeff: don't overestimate the mana production of this deck, especially since you're only running the Explorers and not the ancillary ramp guys. If you're playing against something swarmy like Elves or Affinity, 2RR is significantly cheaper than 3RBB, and often means the difference between a win and a loss. Barring ludicrous Tower/Explorer openers, you're not going to have that much mana that quickly. Much more common of a start is something like, Therapy -> Zenith.Explorer + flashback + Wish.Pyroclasm; or, Therapy -> Explorer + Deed -> t3 blow up the things. Either way, you're blowing up things on turn 3, which is why Elves is often a chancy matchup for Nic Fit -- Elves is commonly a turn 3 deck, and can sometimes turn 2. Damnation is nowhere near fast enough. Personally, while I understand that Punishing Fire kind of serves the Pryoclasm function of keeping the small guys down, I prefer to let my Deeds handle the big guys and shore up the early game a bit more.
-) Also, 2 E-Wits is generally unnecessary. 3rd Top is much better for sure.
-) In defense of Slaughter Games, Jeff's list has 2 maindeck Thoughtseizes in addition to the Therapies, as well as a pair of Lilianas. Post-board, he picks up extra Seizes and REBs. While relying solo on the Slaughter Games is bad deckbuilding, Jeff's got more than enough early defense to justify a pair of Slaughter Games with the express intention of boarding them BOTH in. You tear apart their head, then while they're down, you knee them in the nuts and take away whatever they need most.
-) RE: REB -- mostly High Tide and Omni, but also Sneak/Show (still deals with half of their enablers), and situationally ANT/TES. It's really not wonderful in those matchups, but you frequently have enough dead cards that one or two tend to come in, and with luck you can potentially nab a Brainstorm in resp to a Therapy or some such. Note that I personally don't board in REB vs blue-based control decks -- you generally don't need the help in those matchups. Miracles might be an exception if that deck makes a resurgence, as I predict it will. Hitting their Brainstorms to stop them from putting Miracles back on top is big game.
-) You may miss not having Carpet of Flowers as a backup ramp source for vs tempo, and a replacement ramp source against basic-heavy blue decks that have a tendency to take your Explorer mana and untap into massive threats (especially planeswalkers).
Thanks for the input guys. I've added a Pyroclasm to my wishboard, moved the second e-wit to a third top, and cut my 3rd trinisphere for a 2nd Slaughter Games.
I don't want to cut all the Trinispheres because I want SOME way to interact with generic combo when they have a leyline on the table.
Will keep testing this week and likely do a write up of sorts after SCG Cleveland where I plan to play this :)
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/jund-fits/
~Jeff
So, a little off-topic, but what made you decide to pick up Nic Fit to everyone?
Personally, someone played it one night and it just oddly struck me that, "Hey, those cards you dont see in Legacy, but because you drop so many lands, you can afford to play Prime Time." I also wanted to play a fair deck at the moment and not Hive Mind.
First time I played against it I had a hand. And then my hand was gone!
I was in the market for a new deck, GB was/is my favorite color combination, and loved control decks and decks that don't play by "normal rules" of mtg. I think ultimately it was Caleb D's article on Channelfireball that introduced me to nic fit.
Coming from the world of Counterbalance (and still am), Nic Fit is like freedom from maintaining counts of 1-3 CCs, and can use cards that cost more. It's a lot more fun, too!
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