[Deck] Dredge

[Vlad Teppes]

So is there still a reason not to run LED?

LED is just plain better, it gives us the speed we need to compete against the fastest decks in the format

[BigMana]

LED is just plain better, it gives us the speed we need to compete against the fastest decks in the format

Guess I'll just grind it out until I can afford them

[Vandalize]

That's the exact maindeck that I'm currently on, and it feels very strong. I've been debating on how to squeeze in the 4th Imp, possibly moving a Breakthrough or Therapy to the sideboard. Which do you all think is stronger for game 1, the 4th Therapy, 4th Breakthrough, or the 4th Imp? Please try and make a case for your reasoning instead of just saying which you prefer.

Vandalize- What's your reasoning for running Chain of Vapor over Nature's Claim? Is it the Reanimator matchup?

I'm not sold on the one of Dread Return targets in the sideboard though. If you flip half your deck over, you only have a 50% chance to hit your sided in target. That doesn't take into account the Dread Return or 3 guys you need either. I prefer to try and run 2 of the one I think will be the best in the meta, or overall more flexible, which I believe is Iona by far.

The 4th Breakthrough and the 4th PImp are the weakest slots. I prefer Breakthrough to maximize my chances to combo out early enough. The 4th Therapy should never leave maindeck in the DRless version. It's the proactive way to get rid of your Narcomoebas, relying solely on Ichorids could be trouble.

My Reasoning for Chain of Vapor is that's castable with all the 14 lands I play. Nature's Claim is only castable with 10 of maindeck lands, and the chances to get Discard Outlet, Draw Spell, Dredger, Gold Land and Nature's Claim is REALLY low. Chain of Vapor is really effective if you can time well in the end of your opponent's turn, then combo out safely and use Cabal Therapy to discard whatever you bounced.

Well, those DR targets are really specific, and they come in against hate-light decks, such as Elves and Combo in general.

[Vlad Teppes]

The 4th Breakthrough and the 4th PImp are the weakest slots. I prefer Breakthrough to maximize my chances to combo out early enough. The 4th Therapy should never leave maindeck in the DRless version. It's the proactive way to get rid of your Narcomoebas, relying solely on Ichorids could be trouble.

My Reasoning for Chain of Vapor is that's castable with all the 14 lands I play. Nature's Claim is only castable with 10 of maindeck lands, and the chances to get Discard Outlet, Draw Spell, Dredger, Gold Land and Nature's Claim is REALLY low. Chain of Vapor is really effective if you can time well in the end of your opponent's turn, then combo out safely and use Cabal Therapy to discard whatever you bounced.

Well, those DR targets are really specific, and they come in against hate-light decks, such as Elves and Combo in general.

Well, that's pretty much it, I really like both nature's claim and chain of vapor in my SB, but that' just me.
I really like breakthrough, but as a 4 of, it's a little overkill IMO, I mean, even if we draw 2 or more of them, we can only cast one anyway (but if one of them gets countered, the second one really comes in handy!), I can understand using both of them as a 4 of, but Pimp is more usefull, it provides us a discard outlet, a body to cast cabal therapy and ichorid food, and is less prone to get countered/duressed

again, sorry for my bad english, I'm in the first few months of english classes...

[Stone]

Was getting into Dredge again and saw people asking about sideboarding advice & main deck composition

Thought i'd repost a few valuable articles:

Dredge-Fu (Feldman)
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...Dredge_Fu.html

Joining the Dark Side (Kotter)
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...Dark_Side.html

Haven't checked the opening page so hoping this isn't a big facepalm.

Also i'm particularly interested in the Jonathon Morris Flayer of the hatebound list that went 6th in Cincinnati - anyone able to share a few video links or pros/cons with that guy?

Cheers,
Stone

[Final Fortune]

The 4th Breakthrough and the 4th PImp are the weakest slots. I prefer Breakthrough to maximize my chances to combo out early enough. The 4th Therapy should never leave maindeck in the DRless version. It's the proactive way to get rid of your Narcomoebas, relying solely on Ichorids could be trouble.

My Reasoning for Chain of Vapor is that's castable with all the 14 lands I play. Nature's Claim is only castable with 10 of maindeck lands, and the chances to get Discard Outlet, Draw Spell, Dredger, Gold Land and Nature's Claim is REALLY low. Chain of Vapor is really effective if you can time well in the end of your opponent's turn, then combo out safely and use Cabal Therapy to discard whatever you bounced.

Well, those DR targets are really specific, and they come in against hate-light decks, such as Elves and Combo in general.

I generally prefer the 4th Putrid Imp to the 4th Breakthrough, because Breakthrough is one of the worst cards post-SB vs hate. I've said it once before, but it merrits repeating, that the best way to build your MD in Dredge is to actually build your post-SB deck first and work backwards. Because all of your energy should be invested in games 2 and 3, and seemingly powerful cards like Lion's Eye Diamond and Breakthrough lose a lot of value compared to Putrid Imp/Tireless Tribe, Firestorm and Careful Study etc.

Honestly, if they re-printed an equivalent of Careful Study 5 thru' 8 then I would play it over Breakthrough just because of the post-SB utility.

[Vlad Teppes]

I generally prefer the 4th Putrid Imp to the 4th Breakthrough, because Breakthrough is one of the worst cards post-SB vs hate. I've said it once before, but it merrits repeating, that the best way to build your MD in Dredge is to actually build your post-SB deck first and work backwards. Because all of your energy should be invested in games 2 and 3, and seemingly powerful cards like Lion's Eye Diamond and Breakthrough lose a lot of value compared to Putrid Imp/Tireless Tribe, Firestorm and Careful Study etc.

Honestly, if they re-printed an equivalent of Careful Study 5 thru' 8 then I would play it over Breakthrough just because of the post-SB utility.

I agree with you, the 4th PImp is better than the 4th breakthrough most of the time, but I won't blame him if he wants to increase his chances of comboing out early or have something in case his first breakthrough is countered.

Is it just me or duress is just as good as thoughtseize in the sideboard?
I did my playtesting with both of these cards and duress did just as well, it hits almost everything we need to hit (counterspells, Batterskull, Jittle, Jace, combo pieces, and most hate) and doesn't need two life to get going.
Casting a thoughtseize out of a Tarnished citadel really hurts us and we didn't even cast a single business spell yet! in fact, most of our lands deal damage to us, why are we making it worse?

[Juicy Karaage]

I agree with you, the 4th PImp is better than the 4th breakthrough most of the time, but I won't blame him if he wants to increase his chances of comboing out early or have something in case his first breakthrough is countered.

Is it just me or duress is just as good as thoughtseize in the sideboard?
I did my playtesting with both of these cards and duress did just as well, it hits almost everything we need to hit (counterspells, Batterskull, Jittle, Jace, combo pieces, and most hate) and doesn't need two life to get going.
Casting a thoughtseize out of a Tarnished citadel really hurts us and we didn't even cast a single business spell yet! in fact, most of our lands deal damage to us, why are we making it worse?

Because we want to take out their Scavenging Ooze, Deathrite Shaman, Juton Grunt, Thalia etc as soon as possible. Duress won't do enough

[Vlad Teppes]

Because we want to take out their Scavenging Ooze, Deathrite Shaman, Juton Grunt, Thalia etc as soon as possible. Duress won't do enough

I used to think just like you...
' why bothering with a paltry - 2 life if I can take the best card of his hand!"

and then I draw the following hand:

"Toughtseize, Toughtseize, Tarnished citadel, careful study, faithless looting, golgari thug, golgari grave troll"

sweet hand, not so sweet 8 life loss in the first 2 turns

I got your point, seize is allways going to be better than duress, it can take any card of their hand, but sometimes the lifeloss it's just too much if your meta is full of delvers and aggro everywhere.

[Final Fortune]

I used to think just like you...
' why bothering with a paltry - 2 life if I can take the best card of his hand!"

and then I draw the following hand:

"Toughtseize, Toughtseize, Tarnished citadel, careful study, faithless looting, golgari thug, golgari grave troll"

sweet hand, not so sweet 8 life loss in the first 2 turns

I got your point, seize is allways going to be better than duress, it can take any card of their hand, but sometimes the lifeloss it's just too much if your meta is full of delvers and aggro everywhere.

The decks you board Thoughtseize in against don't usually have a clock, but they do usually have a creature that's a pain in the ass; for instance you'll Thoughtseize a Meddling Mage vs Miracles a lot.

[Stone]

That's the exact maindeck that I'm currently on, and it feels very strong. I've been debating on how to squeeze in the 4th Imp, possibly moving a Breakthrough or Therapy to the sideboard. Which do you all think is stronger for game 1, the 4th Therapy, 4th Breakthrough, or the 4th Imp? Please try and make a case for your reasoning instead of just saying which you prefer.

Pure theory but having just read the articles posted above i'd suggest cutting the 4th breakthrough for the 4th imp.
Imp fuels DR & therapy flashbacks as well as being the best outlet in the game for slow dredge grinding;
Breakthrough is a combo style peice with big reward v combo but is worse post board otherwise due to the ditch hand drawback which makes it the last draw spell you want to cast;
Therapy is incredibly important as the decks only disruption and as a sac outlet for bridge enabling.

So I say -1 breakthrough, +1 Imp and leave therapy at 4 :)


Has anyone used Flayer of the Hatebound? It sounds like it grants a pseudo haste via the comes into play...
Assuming 1 bridge and 3 dudes to sac to DR flayer: 4 damage for flayer + 6 for 3 zombies, therapy sac flayer for 5 damage from flayer and an additional 6 from zombies.... is that correct? 21 damage?
In a grinding scenario with 1 bridge and flayer 1 ichorid recursion is 3 for ichorid, 2 for EOT zombie...

Might also make blocking better on defense.

Am just a little reluctant after reading Feldman's article where he talks about the danger of cool things:

But remember: a win is a win. No matter how ugly it looks to spectators getting there with the cleanup step discard plan into a janky assortment of Zombies and lumbering Grave-Trolls backed up by Therapies earns you just as many points as does grandiosely smiting your foes with Lion's Eye Diamond into Iona or a furious Flame-Kin Zealot horde.

In return for eschewing these concessions to The Fear (or to Johnny perhaps) what the deck gains is consistency—and in turn more of those aforementioned point things.

Very tempted to just run the thugs as he indicates, though the article being pre faithless looting i'm wondering about the with/without LED option.
I have both available - obv LED gives more combo speed via looting flashback while the citadels do what? Improve consistency by reducing mulligans and enable you to play magic??? Have a better long game with the grind-mode of the deck and v hate post board?
Thoughts anyone? Advice appreciated from regular players either on my questions or thoughts on the articles linked above?

[raikenxy]

Pure theory but having just read the articles posted above i'd suggest cutting the 4th breakthrough for the 4th imp.
Imp fuels DR & therapy flashbacks as well as being the best outlet in the game for slow dredge grinding;
Breakthrough is a combo style peice with big reward v combo but is worse post board otherwise due to the ditch hand drawback which makes it the last draw spell you want to cast;
Therapy is incredibly important as the decks only disruption and as a sac outlet for bridge enabling.

So I say -1 breakthrough, +1 Imp and leave therapy at 4 :)


Has anyone used Flayer of the Hatebound? It sounds like it grants a pseudo haste via the comes into play...
Assuming 1 bridge and 3 dudes to sac to DR flayer: 4 damage for flayer + 6 for 3 zombies, therapy sac flayer for 5 damage from flayer and an additional 6 from zombies.... is that correct? 21 damage?
In a grinding scenario with 1 bridge and flayer 1 ichorid recursion is 3 for ichorid, 2 for EOT zombie...

Might also make blocking better on defense.

Am just a little reluctant after reading Feldman's article where he talks about the danger of cool things:

But remember: a win is a win. No matter how ugly it looks to spectators getting there with the cleanup step discard plan into a janky assortment of Zombies and lumbering Grave-Trolls backed up by Therapies earns you just as many points as does grandiosely smiting your foes with Lion's Eye Diamond into Iona or a furious Flame-Kin Zealot horde.

In return for eschewing these concessions to The Fear (or to Johnny perhaps) what the deck gains is consistency—and in turn more of those aforementioned point things.

Very tempted to just run the thugs as he indicates, though the article being pre faithless looting i'm wondering about the with/without LED option.
I have both available - obv LED gives more combo speed via looting flashback while the citadels do what? Improve consistency by reducing mulligans and enable you to play magic??? Have a better long game with the grind-mode of the deck and v hate post board?
Thoughts anyone? Advice appreciated from regular players either on my questions or thoughts on the articles linked above?

i've been running flayer in my build ever since he came out. I've found he's really great in grind games and great against deathrite shaman. a lot of people won't agree with me on that as quadlazer has a lot of popularity amongst dredge players. i've had great success with flayer, he makes your reanimator match up a lot easier and being able to one shot someone is just so valuable since the meta has become a lot more grindy

[Vlad Teppes]

i've been running flayer in my build ever since he came out. I've found he's really great in grind games and great against deathrite shaman. a lot of people won't agree with me on that as quadlazer has a lot of popularity amongst dredge players. i've had great success with flayer, he makes your reanimator match up a lot easier and being able to one shot someone is just so valuable since the meta has become a lot more grindy

Quadlazer is the best build IMO, tough I can see the point using DR as a backup win condition.
the point is that DR really slows the deck down, it gets stuck in your hand and those DR targets are just as lame in situations were you are either:

A) facing GY hate in the maindeck ( DR shaman, Scooze or the rare MD rest in peace)
B) facing combo matchups were you need to be faster to win

It's tiresome to mullingan good hands because we didn't draw a land or draw spell instead of a dread return, so why dilude the deck if we can add more business spells like breaktrough and cabal therapys and leave those Dread returns /targets in the sideboard against matchups that we need to grind?

[raikenxy]

Quadlazer is the best build IMO, tough I can see the point using DR as a backup win condition.
the point is that DR really slows the deck down, it gets stuck in your hand and those DR targets are just as lame in situations were you are either:

A) facing GY hate in the maindeck ( DR shaman, Scooze or the rare MD rest in peace)
B) facing combo matchups were you need to be faster to win

It's tiresome to mullingan good hands because we didn't draw a land or draw spell instead of a dread return, so why dilude the deck if we can add more business spells like breaktrough and cabal therapys and leave those Dread returns /targets in the sideboard against matchups that we need to grind?

I run 2 dread returns main and one flayer, and the deck i will openly just say is one of the most powerfully consistent "mulliganing" (if thats a word) decks in legacy. if i have to mulligan i mulligan, winning on a mull to 4 is not that uncommon with this deck.

a) DR is actually great against deathrite shaman, as they must either choose to eat your DR or your ichorid/narcomoeba, and i can honestly say if they make the wrong choice, they die. at starcity games sommerset i remember playing against jund twice where they ate one ichorid on my upkeep, where by i jsut dredged into narcomoeba's and killed them with flayer. on top of that even if you can't kill them with flayer as you only have one dread return in the yard, flayer of the hatebound can also kill their deathrite shaman, scavenging ooze, w.e creature hate bear they have. it's main deck removal, which can also be relevant.
b) i'd say it's great in the combo matchup, as it enables a turn one kill with your god hand, as opposed to hoping you get enough therapies in your yard that cabal therapy gets there.
c) simply put i dont lose once my bridges are exiled, as i can still win. I don't lose when i have to rely on attacking through a board stall when i know attacking means i die, and it also means i win the second i mill my graveyard and have everything i need, as i don't need to pass the turn back and give my oppenent any chance.
d) i run thirteen land, which is more then a traditional quad build


i understand it's a preference, and those are the reasons why i prefer it. i'm not saying quadlazer is a bad deck at all, its a great deck, i just think the arguement of being more "optimal" is wrong. but ocne again just my preference.

[Vlad Teppes]

I run 2 dread returns main and one flayer, and the deck i will openly just say is one of the most powerfully consistent "mulliganing" (if thats a word) decks in legacy. if i have to mulligan i mulligan, winning on a mull to 4 is not that uncommon with this deck.

a) DR is actually great against deathrite shaman, as they must either choose to eat your DR or your ichorid/narcomoeba, and i can honestly say if they make the wrong choice, they die. at starcity games sommerset i remember playing against jund twice where they ate one ichorid on my upkeep, where by i jsut dredged into narcomoeba's and killed them with flayer. on top of that even if you can't kill them with flayer as you only have one dread return in the yard, flayer of the hatebound can also kill their deathrite shaman, scavenging ooze, w.e creature hate bear they have. it's main deck removal, which can also be relevant.
b) i'd say it's great in the combo matchup, as it enables a turn one kill with your god hand, as opposed to hoping you get enough therapies in your yard that cabal therapy gets there.
c) simply put i dont lose once my bridges are exiled, as i can still win. I don't lose when i have to rely on attacking through a board stall when i know attacking means i die, and it also means i win the second i mill my graveyard and have everything i need, as i don't need to pass the turn back and give my oppenent any chance.
d) i run thirteen land, which is more then a traditional quad build


i understand it's a preference, and those are the reasons why i prefer it. i'm not saying quadlazer is a bad deck at all, its a great deck, i just think the arguement of being more "optimal" is wrong. but ocne again just my preference.

You just exactly hit what I meant!
With dread return and targets, the "god hand" you mentioned is less likely to happen, if it happens at all!
and also, not allways quadlazer have to follow the EXACT same list, I for example, preffer to use more lands, and a darkblast (metagame call, lot's of cheap aggro decks where I play) in exchange for some Ichorids and Breaktroughs
here's the list I've been playtesting with:


4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
3 Putrid Imp
3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
1 Darkblast
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 Thoughtseize OR 3 Duress not decided yet
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 2 Dread Return
SB: 1 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

So far It's working just like it should, and it gives just what I need postboard, and I don't miss MD Dread Return at all, so long I can race deathrite shaman with my draw spells I can do just as fine
Dread Return really comes in handy against decks that are light on hate such as elves and goblins but even on those matchups, we can outspeed them without dread return anyways, so why even bother? but it's a great card whatsoever, it can save games should we go for the grinding route and it's very forgiving!

[Mindlash]

Has anyone used Flayer of the Hatebound? It sounds like it grants a pseudo haste via the comes into play...
Assuming 1 bridge and 3 dudes to sac to DR flayer: 4 damage for flayer + 6 for 3 zombies, therapy sac flayer for 5 damage from flayer and an additional 6 from zombies.... is that correct? 21 damage?
In a grinding scenario with 1 bridge and flayer 1 ichorid recursion is 3 for ichorid, 2 for EOT zombie...

Flayer of the Hatebound:

"Whenever Flayer of the Hatebound or another creature enters the battlefield from your graveyard, that creature deals damage equal to its power to target creature or player."

Zombiestoken don't return to the battlefield from your graveyard...therefore they deal no damage via Flayer.
Typically you kill through the direct damage from a returned GGT. You should run 3 DR if you want to kill you opponent with the Flayer/GGT kill regulary because you will need at least 2 DR for it.

The rest works like you described it. Flayer comes in for 4 dmg. You sac Flayer and 2 other creatures for DR on GGT. Flayer returns for another 5 and GGT hopefully for 11+ ;-)

Greetings Chris

[Stone]

Flayer of the Hatebound:

"Whenever Flayer of the Hatebound or another creature enters the battlefield from your graveyard, that creature deals damage equal to its power to target creature or player."

Zombiestoken don't return to the battlefield from your graveyard...therefore they deal no damage via Flayer.
Typically you kill through the direct damage from a returned GGT. You should run 3 DR if you want to kill you opponent with the Flayer/GGT kill regulary because you will need at least 2 DR for it.

The rest works like you described it. Flayer comes in for 4 dmg. You sac Flayer and 2 other creatures for DR on GGT. Flayer returns for another 5 and GGT hopefully for 11+ ;-)

Greetings Chris

Looks like I suffered a case of 'Read The Fre@k!ng card!!'
Thanks for setting me straight Chris - am now going through the opening post links. You guys have consolidated a lot of great resources there....
Thanks for responses all.

[Vlad Teppes]

Hey guys! I was playtesting today in a small local tour! it was a very quick tour but there was some delvers, stoneblades and tribals ( I won the tour with little trouble aside for a maverick player)
I gonna ask you, what is more usefull against elves in the sideboard?
Is it even worth boarding something against them in the first place? I mean, they can interact with our bridges with NO (but that's usually too slow) and pack some grave hate in the form of ooze and DR shaman, they can even GSZ for them in a pinch!
I tried using the DR + elesh norn package but that quickly failed as my opponent had a ooze and crpyt staring at me.
I managed to win game 3 by reseting the deck and racing FTW

by the way this is my sideboard:

SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 2 Dread Return
SB: 1 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

Using my sideboard, what would be your boarding plan (if you wanted to board anything) against elves , UR delver and stoneblade? (just checking in case I did something "wrong")
also do you guys have any advices on my sideboard? (I'm using the regular quadlazer list but: -1 ichorid, - 1 breaktrough -1 Putrid imp, +1 Darkblast, +2 Tarnished Citadel)

thanks in advance!

[rw1347]

Hey guys, was wondering if you guys know any good tech to deal with a resolves elesh norn. Been playing in a heavy reanimator meta lately.

[raikenxy]

Hey guys, was wondering if you guys know any good tech to deal with a resolves elesh norn. Been playing in a heavy reanimator meta lately.

elesh norn on turn one/two is just an auto loss foryou. their's nothing you can do if they'reon the play and they go entomb reanimate. Chain of vapor is your best call, i used to have the same problem but i simply dealt with elesh norn by boarding to be faster and establishing a flayer/ichorid burn clock to the point where they couldn't use reanimate anymore. once they're under 8 life the can't actually cast reanimate or they die. meaning they're either on show and tell or exhume, and most often it's exhume which you dont care about, because then you just go get a big fat grave troll or a DR target (if your running one) and win anyway

your main goal in this game is simply to race them and nail them with therapy, since most reanimator decks have essentially cut animate dead the reanimate spells you name are exhume/reanimate... . if your not runing DR as most dredge players aren't you board to be faster and race them before they combo off which is still effective, we arent favored in this match, but it's not as overwhelming as it seems. id say you unfavored 60/40 at worst.