Miracle Control

[Mackan]

I Play against a good Miracle Player with 3 Entreats all the Time, and when i play something fair, they're annoying to play against. As you said, simply entreating for 2 is tough for most decks and gives you usually enough turns you need to etablish a good position.

Entreat number 3 would be good more often than not, but I think you have to compare it to the card you cut. The list is pretty tight and I would prefer more cantrips/counterspells to increase the consistency rather than raw power. There are a few decks where we have to be the beatdown (12-post, goblins etc) and entreat is a must here. If it wasn't for those matchups and for slow opponents I would prefer playing only Jace as my win-con in a control deck. Beeing a defensive control deck with 8+ dead cards pre-board hurts enough (counterspells or removal). I personally don't think you want to increase potential dead draws for the chance of entreating in the mid-game, not in this shell atleast. Some people shave terminus/plows for more entreats as a comparable "answer" to random dorks, but I don't think this is correct. Terminus costs 1 and entreat costs atleast 3, most likely 5+ to be comparable.
I can see 4-of entreats no terminus beeing a good choice in some metagames but that would switch focus from the defensive counterbalance shell to much to a much more combo-aggressive approach. Maybe that Tithe/Entreat-list or scroll rack/land tax is better, I don't know.

Im currently giving Mystic Gates another go... I was obviously owned by choke a few times after my last comment. I still run 2 tundras though. I went 4-0 in the DE but lucked a bit so the result is not really representative.
Im also running pyroclasm in my board. I switch a few cards back and forth.

I see most people pack wear/tear, disenchant or o-ring... I currently have no answer except needle/EE/venser (and counterspells). In what matchups do you bring those?

[YamiJoey]

Snap is not good in the mirror. If they playbthe RiP build, yor Snap is dead. If they play a Snap build, RiP is better, as your targets, apart from Tutor, are not relevant in this MU. 5XX for Entreat is not feasable. You then have counterspells (3: Pierce, Snare, Flusterstorm, 4: Counterspell, 7: Force) and random Brainstorms. I don't mind additional Brainstorms, but I feel like it's just not worth it. It harasses a Jace, but Clique is better. Being able to Tutor for a more relevant Spell when using CB is also better, rather than just grabbing a CB to leave on top.

[Higgs]

RiP versions looks to be better on paper but I tested it a bit and found it very cluncky. Most of the time I'd have do-nothing cards in my hand, RiP would eat removal, I wouldn't be able to piece together the Helm kill in time etc. etc. It's either me who has no idea how to play that version, or that version is actually less consistent than the Snapcaster version.

[zerzab11]

Haven't posted here in a long time Nice to see, that there is so much discussion going on :)

@Einherjer: Congrats on your impressive finish!

@Topic: Clunkyness is one of the biggest problems of this archetype imo. That's why I prefer to mitigate the clunkyness (e.g. Enlightened Tutor + Toolbox / RiP + Tutor + Helm/ etc.) and try to play the cards which I feel seem to have the highest overall powerlevel/impact combined with many cantrips.

I played this list to some good finishes over the last few months (13:3 @ Sideevents of GP Prag, 41 and 51 at local tournaments with ~45 People, good testing results)

2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
2 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

3 Ponder

3 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

1 Karakas
3 Arid Mesa
1 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
2 Plains
5 Island
4 Flooded Strand

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 1 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Counterbalance
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict


The list is from a friend of mine with some personal tweaks. What I like most about the list is the combination of 3 Entreat + 3 Ponder, which help setup Miracles or Counterbalance, help to find one- or two-offs etc.
With Ponder, Snapcaster Mage becomes better again, although I always liked him in this deck. The only card I really don't like is Blood Moon, but I think it is a necesitty against those BUG/ sometimes Jund/ 12-Post /greedy.dec , that instantly scoop against Moon.

[Piceli89]

RiP versions looks to be better on paper but I tested it a bit and found it very cluncky. Most of the time I'd have do-nothing cards in my hand, RiP would eat removal, I wouldn't be able to piece together the Helm kill in time etc. etc. It's either me who has no idea how to play that version, or that version is actually less consistent than the Snapcaster version.

Pretty much this, and I have no absolute clue on how one can do well by playing a Miracle version that includes multiple additional copies of often-do-nothing cards like Rest in Peace, Helm of Awakening, Energy Field, when their "counterpart" slots are all-around good cards (Snapcaster Mage, Ponder) with way more depth of usefulness across several scenarios. Miracle already suffers from occasional clunkiness by itself, which we should try to mitigate by minimizing the number of narrow cards.
How is it possible to play such builds with a singleton Pierce, a singleton Flusterstorm, a singleton Entreat, other 100 singletons here and there?

RIP builds in my opinion are the worst path to play Miracle spells possible, you're trying to put your eggs into many suboptimal baskets whereas squaring lists by structuring few but good paths of victory (Entreat the Angels, Jace, Clique under Counterbalance) would just be enough strong and consistent to win. Rest in Peace by itself, moreover, does not have any particular sinergy with Counterbalance and Miracles, whereas Snapcaster recycles Brainstorm, and the additional Ponders obviously act as glue of the whole.

[klaus]

I see most people pack wear/tear, disenchant or o-ring... I currently have no answer except needle/EE/venser (and counterspells). In what matchups do you bring those?

Being able to kill your not so beloved Choke for is just one of many applications.
I actually bring my 2 W/T against plenty of archetypes:
* DnT
* Vial.dec
* Sneak Attack, OmniTell
* DeathBlade
* several Tier2 decks: Enchantress, Affinity, Loam.dec, various Chalice-based decks, etc.

[twndomn]

Pretty much this, and I have no absolute clue on how one can do well by playing a Miracle version that includes multiple additional copies of often-do-nothing cards like Rest in Peace, Helm of Awakening, Energy Field, when their "counterpart" slots are all-around good cards (Snapcaster Mage, Ponder) with way more depth of usefulness across several scenarios. Miracle already suffers from occasional clunkiness by itself, which we should try to mitigate by minimizing the number of narrow cards.
How is it possible to play such builds with a singleton Pierce, a singleton Flusterstorm, a singleton Entreat, other 100 singletons here and there?

RIP builds in my opinion are the worst path to play Miracle spells possible, you're trying to put your eggs into many suboptimal baskets whereas squaring lists by structuring few but good paths of victory (Entreat the Angels, Jace, Clique under Counterbalance) would just be enough strong and consistent to win. Rest in Peace by itself, moreover, does not have any particular sinergy with Counterbalance and Miracles, whereas Snapcaster recycles Brainstorm, and the additional Ponders obviously act as glue of the whole.

The decision is really about how popular DRS, Goyf, Loam, and Punishing Fire are at your location? If your meta is filled Combos, obviously Snapcaster and Legend-Angel builds are all better than Rip-Helm.

[alphastryk]

The decision is really about how popular DRS, Goyf, Loam, and Punishing Fire are at your location? If your meta is filled Combos, obviously Snapcaster and Legend-Angel builds are all better than Rip-Helm.

Prettymuch, although Storm is reasonably impacted by RIP as well.

I'm sticking with RIP because the majority of my local meta is DRS, Goyf, KotR, Loam, PFire, Etc. - making RIP the right choice. I think that holds true more generally as well, but I can see the argument that it doesn't.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I don't understand where 3 RIP is too much but 2 Counterbalance is okay in your opinions, those of you who don't play RIP. I would tank on so many more games without the 3rd in the MD. I even play a 4th in the board. That is craziness, to only play 2x. Also, E. Field with RIP wins me games, straight up. Just BS away the extra RIPs if you need to, but I often need a second from one eating it to a Vindicate, ADecay, or disenchant or Tear. Also, I'm up to 61 cards for a 23rd land without having to get rid of my singleton Ponder. Arid Mesa #2, putting me at 10 fetches.

[supachai]

@ Mackan
To fit the 3rd Entreat, I basically cut all the random chaff in my MD. No more 1-of Engineered Explosives or Wear//Tear. I'll post my list for reference.

MD
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
1 Misdirection

3 Terminus
3 Entreat the Angels
1 Ponder

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Mystic Gate
1 Karakas

SB
3 Rest in Peace
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Wear // Tear
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Terminus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Terminus
1 Misdirection
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will

I agree they are a little clunky in some match ups, but things like Terminus are even clunkier. Whereas Entreat can at least kill planeswalkers or pressure combo decks, Terminus is solely good for getting rid of creatures. Despite that, running these "dead" cards is the main is perfectly fine because of all the card filtering we have. Brainstorm, Top, Ponder, Jace, Vendilion Clique can all help us avoid or get rid of the Miracles in our hand when we don't want them. I run 9 counter spells MD, plus 3 Counterbalance and 2 Snapcasters. Combo is not usually a problem pre board (or post board for that matter).

@YamiJoey
I agree on Snapcaster being bad in the mirror, but not because of RIP. In general, Miracles deck only run 1 RIP in the main (unless they're the Helm version, which I think is usually inferior). Rip doesn't do enough against Miracles, so a good player will usually just shuffle it away with a Brainstorm or Clique. Even if they do land it, I can also shuffle away my Snapcasters.

I agree with all the people above saying clunkiness is bad. Rip-Helm or E-tutor boards don't belong in this deck. They ruin the consistency of our game plan. Despite being "silver bullets" in some match ups, they are not necessary to win when we play carefully and correctly. I'd rather have the overall consistency.

@zerzab11
I like your list. I'm really starting to think that 3 Entreats is the way to go. I also love Ponder. Unfortunately I can only find space for 1, but I would like to add another to set up Miracles better (maybe I should go to 61 cards?). I think you want a second Volcanic in your mana base though, and as others have said, I would up the Counterbalance to 3. Maybe -1 Ponder?

I really really want to run Blood Moon. It crushes BUG and gives us a chance against 12 post. I just couldn't justify 2 slots for it though.

@ Secretly.A.Bee
How many E Fields do you run in the board? Can you draw them consistently?

And lastly, just agreeing with what everyone has said. Wear//Tear is spectacular. I've been able to snag Pithing Needle + Choke or Equipment + Sylvan Library on multiple occasions. I really want to run a second in the side, but no space :/ On Counterbalance: either run 0, or run at least 3. If you run Snapcasters, you can run 3, but otherwise, most certainly run 4. One of our best card advantage engines and closes out so many match ups like RUG and Combo.

[Dzra]

Sure, I'm not saying that RIP Miracles is just "the best." It's obviously a meta call, but if you find yourself boarding in your RIPs in over half your MUs then it is definitely something valid to consider. RIP easily comes in against, RUG, BUG, Jund, Dredge, Reanimator, Junk, Maverick, Nic Fit, Loam, and ANT. It might not always be right, but looking at the field nowadays, I can see a good case for it.

(And I don't mean that Snapcaster itself is great in the mirror, although recasting REBs and Brainstorms is certainly saucy. I meant that the Snapcaster build is better than the RIP build in the mirror because it is more streamlined and has more innate CA.)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

None in the board. It's essentially a wasted slot to do so unless you have some serious burn in your meta imo, and while I play against burn in my meta, for some reason I've been having better luck as of late. I think it's because I switched from Deathblade back to this. Honestly, Deathblade was kinda a fluke... Anyway, back on topic, I run one in the main, and between 3 Jace, 4 BS, 1 Ponder, 2 ETutor, I'm good. I get it when I need it mostly. Also, it's pretty bad unless you do have the RIP. I pitch it to Force/MisD when it's not useful, or BS it back.

-ABC

[YamiJoey]

I just don't care about dead cards. The deck just throws them all back into the deck to be recycled later, and then used for Force food. Most of the time I land these cards and the game grinds to a stunning halt. It's just about working out which contraption you're aiming to assemble, and when you need it. Dark Maverick? Get Rip out. Protect it with some stuff, and when they've cast a pair if Decays land your Energy Field. Storm? Counter-top, Rip for time, and Helm them. It's the fastest kill we have. Or counter them down on cards and Fateseal them to death, but that 's more of a situation that simply arises than an actual plan.

This is just something I've been throwing around my head. I really like RiP, and in a meta that I expect to see a lot of Goyfs, Geese, and other random GY things, I'll probably stick with it. If I do opt for a non-RiP deck, then I'm looking at playing this pile of strange.

LEG UWC Artifacts

Permanents: 18
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Detention Sphere
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives

Spells: 19
4 Brainstorm
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
2 Terminus
3 Entreat the Angels

Lands: 23
3 Plains
5 Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty
1 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra

IMO if you're not Ripping, you should be using the Graveyard. This is my general rule for Legacy. If you don't interact with an object, your opponent will use it to kill you. It's that simple.

[supachai]

Sure, I'm not saying that RIP Miracles is just "the best." It's obviously a meta call, but if you find yourself boarding in your RIPs in over half your MUs then it is definitely something valid to consider. RIP easily comes in against, RUG, BUG, Jund, Dredge, Reanimator, Junk, Maverick, Nic Fit, Loam, and ANT. It might not always be right, but looking at the field nowadays, I can see a good case for it.

I have nothing against RIP in the main. It only comes in against a few matchups, but those are the ones most often faced. Personally I don't do it because I like having Snapcasters as a good all-around answer. What I don't like is Helm and E-tutor MD. Helm does absolutely nothing when I don't have RIP, or if they Decay RIP in response. E-tutor is card disadvantage, which I really dislike having in control.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Okay, well I'm gonna say it. I think Snappy is slow and clunky. You have to first find and use/get discarded the spell you want to flashback in the first place, and they can just make you lose 2 life in response. It's bad. I've owned a set since it was pre-orderable and I have yet to use the p.o.s. to any success. It's slow. Props to people who have piloted the mentally impaired bob, but I think it's a skill-intensive card that is less effective than a blind Cabal Therapy.

I would rather see 2x SFMystic in a Miracles build.

-ABC

[alphastryk]

I agree Snapcaster is clunky. RIP is live against so many more decks than you think it is, especially in my local metagame. It's usually only dead for me against MonoU OmniTell, which is a good matchup anyway.

We had unfortunately low attendance last night, but I went 2-1 (Beating Modern Blistercoil Weird & UWR Delver but loosing to RUG loam / depths / pfire control) to make top8, then won my top8 match (Mono-U Omnitell) before we split top4 with this list:


4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterbalance
3 Rest in Peace
1 Energy Field
1 Counterspell
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Force of Will
3 Terminus
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
2 Glacial Fortress
5 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain

Sideboard:
2 Wear // Tear
2 Pyroclasm
2 Meddling Mage
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Batterskull
1 Humility
1 Blood Moon
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Celestial Purge


Deck felt very smooth, although Glacial Fortress was awkward once. Definitely didn't miss Karakas at all, so it's probably staying at home for now. Batterskull out of the board was great as an additional threat and a tutor-able 5 for counterbalance (Force of Will, Dream Halls, Batterskull). Leyline has been very good against the GBx decks, but people are getting better at playing around Blood Moon. Celestial Purge hasn't gotten as much use lately (and was always a bit suspect), so maybe that's a way to get another hatebear or a 3rd Counterbalance back in the deck.

[Higgs]

alphastryk, I have two questions. First, how do you play with the RiP packages? I know it's a broad question but what I mean is, with the Snapcaster and Legends version the way you play is playing lands turn after turn while trying to answer the critical threats, then when you have enough mana either ride a CB-Top lock to inevitability or land a Jace/Entreat to seal the deal. With the RiP package I often draw cards like Helm, Blood Moon, a lonely RiP or a sole Enlightened Tutor which don't answer anything on their own and I end up in situations where I'm trying to find the second piece for what I'm holding at hand instead of consistently finding the key answer to the current board state.

My second question is, why don't you play Mystic Gates instead of Glacial Fortresses? Gates are great to cast a turn 2 CB when you have a gate+plains and generally smooth out your color requirements.

[alphastryk]

alphastryk, I have two questions. First, how do you play with the RiP packages? I know it's a broad question but what I mean is, with the Snapcaster and Legends version the way you play is playing lands turn after turn while trying to answer the critical threats, then when you have enough mana either ride a CB-Top lock to inevitability or land a Jace/Entreat to seal the deal. With the RiP package I often draw cards like Helm, Blood Moon, a lonely RiP or a sole Enlightened Tutor which don't answer anything on their own and I end up in situations where I'm trying to find the second piece for what I'm holding at hand instead of consistently finding the key answer to the current board state.

My second question is, why don't you play Mystic Gates instead of Glacial Fortresses? Gates are great to cast a turn 2 CB when you have a gate+plains and generally smooth out your color requirements.

Well, I've cut Blood Moon to the board given people are more prepared for it, but sometimes Helm and Energy Field are a bit clunky. I don't think it is any more clunky than Entreat the Angels / Terminus in the hand though, and Brainstorm is a hell of a card. The first Enlightened Tutor is almost always live, as there is going to be something relevant to find with it (CB, RIP, Top, O-Ring, etc.). If you draw RiP by itself, just play it out unless you're playing the mirror. That way any future Tutor or Helm is a win. It also just slows down / blanks a huge number or cards and strategies. I'm much more willing to tap out given that I don't play a lot of counterspells but just play lockdown permanaents.

The biggest difference in how I play compared to what I see most people doing is that I do not treat this as mainly a Counterbalance deck. You'll see I only run two copies where most people have 3-4. I'd prefer to have that available if I need it but generally just keep the board clear and stay alive until I can stick Jace / Helm / Entreat and win quickly.

I don't play Mystic Gate as it doesn't make mana by itself and is a but awkward with my basic mountain (glacial fortress is too, I know). Also - I'm not nearly as much in the market for UU early with less counterbalances. I really hate both lands but I'll be giving them both another try since I've been choked a few times lately. Those two slots may just end up going back to Karakas and a Fetch or something.

[twndomn]

I don't play Mystic Gate as it doesn't make mana by itself and is a but awkward with my basic mountain (glacial fortress is too, I know). Also - I'm not nearly as much in the market for UU early with less counterbalances. I really hate both lands but I'll be giving them both another try since I've been choked a few times lately. Those two slots may just end up going back to Karakas and a Fetch or something.

It does make Mana by itself. Turn 1, play Gate, tap Gate for Mana, play SDT. That's actually quite frequent. The deck, regardless the version (Rip-helm/Legend/Snapcaster), all required UU for Clique/CB, WW for Entreat.

[Ocean]

Gents, how do you use Flusterstorm and against what do you board it in?