[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[Arianrhod]

If you plan to do Grand Prix D.C. it isnt in D.C. this time. Its a good 30 minute drive to the West in Dulles.
Place is kinda in the middle of nowhere-ish (right near a major airport though)

Just something to note since that topic was brought up.

Yup, it's in the same place it was last time there was a "GP DC," which I was also at. Got my hotel reserved and everything already =)

[Star|Scream]

Yup, it's in the same place it was last time there was a "GP DC," which I was also at. Got my hotel reserved and everything already =)

Speaking of which, should we have a Nic Fit meetup either Friday night or Sunday? (depending on how folks do, of course)

[Arianrhod]

Speaking of which, should we have a Nic Fit meetup either Friday night or Sunday? (depending on how folks do, of course)

Definitely planning on this happening. We're actually going down Thursday so that we can take it nice and easy on Friday.....should be onsite most of the afternoon/evening Friday, then obviously will be around for Saturday/Sunday (regardless of if I d2 or not, I'll be around at least a little for side events etc).

Who all else is going, and when will you be getting in?

[Star|Scream]

I'm assuming we are leaving here some time on Friday during the day, so probably late afternoon-evening.

[kavaki]

Im not sure if I'd be invited (have only tested and am kinda green to nic fit), but I can probably do either friday or saturday.

[hymntotourcock]

Can someone give me a rough idea what the Pox matchup is like (for Punishing)? Seems to me that their disruption outpaces ours: Hymn, IoK, TS, Smallpox feel a bit backbreaking when our early turns matter more than theirs. Do we just sit back and play the long game? Or take a more aggressive approach by stuffing creatures on the board?

Also, if Storm is really ruining some people's days, why don't you try Sphere of Resistance? Or even Trinisphere? I guess living to t2/t3 is the tricky part here?

[Star|Scream]

Can someone give me a rough idea what the Pox matchup is like (for Punishing)? Seems to me that their disruption outpaces ours: Hymn, IoK, TS, Smallpox feel a bit backbreaking when our early turns matter more than theirs. Do we just sit back and play the long game? Or take a more aggressive approach by stuffing creatures on the board?

I don't see the issue here. You drop an explorer or a top on your first turn and then win. A smallpox when you have an explorer out is a losing proposition. All of their removal lets you choose who to send to the graveyard. You send explorers and work off your topdeck the way you always do. Do they even have a win condition? The rack?

Also, if Storm is really ruining some people's days, why don't you try Sphere of Resistance? Or even Trinisphere? I guess living to t2/t3 is the tricky part here?

Yes, surviving until your third turn is the battle here. Also the fact that we don't really have a fast clock to put pressure after disruption.

[TheArchitect]

/barn RE@Levin's list.
@Evan -- my experiences vs Sneak are just different, I guess. There have been multiple games where I take my opponent's Emrakuls, and then he's incapable of killing me with Griselbrand -- half the time they need to Intuition to actually find a Griselbrand, which means that they have a grand total of 2 Griselbrands for 14 points of life that they can actually do. From what I've seen, the Feldon's Cane effect of Emrakul is actually surprisingly important to Sneak. I agree that as long as you're bringing in 3+ REBs, Show and Tell isn't as big of a threat, but I'd rather attack on all angles rather than just focus on one (you focus on the enablers, I split my attention more between enablers and monsters). It's probably just a personal style thing, since we both have results with Scape vs Sneak.

I have seen that happen with griselbrands too, and it is pretty hilarious. But the scarier play that any S&T that knows how to count will do (granted this might be a fairly a small number of S&T players) is they will draw 7 until they can show in a griselbrand. From there, they just protect him with near infinite countermagic.

Also, that reminds me how awesome having surgical is against show and tell when they have to intuition for a fatty.

[kavaki]

Yay, im useful now. I was on Pox for longer than I care to admit and I will say that I dislike this match-up (as pox)
They are a resource denial deck and with the printing of Liliana, The big pox has seen less play. Explorer is a card that you want in this match-up.

Pox wincons are:
The Rack/Shrieking Affliction, Mishra's Factory, Nether Spirit and Tombstalker. If they are more base in LD pox, then its cursed scroll.

I feel we are favored well.

[jbone2016]

Yeah, what is your latest, while we're on the subject?

Unrelatedly, I'm not sure I'm going to make it to Indy now. Apparently, what SCG doesn't tell you is that if you drop from an event, you don't get the 1 SCG point. So, when I thought I qualified at Philly, I actually didn't, and still have 14 points.

I do still have a potential out in the form of Jupiter on the 12th, which is an SCG elite IQ now -- but I NEED to at least top 16, or I don't get any SCG points. So.....pressure's on, I guess. I've still got Champs and DC, obviously, but I really would like to make the invitational. Ending the year with 14 points is gonna really suck, since they don't carry over from year to year.

Huh. I have pretty much always dropped after getting my 3rd loss and I still have 11 points. 4 for top 32, 5 for 64+ and 2 for the IQ top 8.

[HoneyT]

Unfortunately it looks like I won't be able to make it to DC

However as I said, I'll still be at the Invitational in Indy. Hope you can still make it Kevin.

Also, here's my up to date list as per request:

// Deck: P-Fire Nic Fit (60)

// Lands
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer

// Spells
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Punishing Fire
3 Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize

[Arianrhod]

I just double-checked. Apparently it took SCG forever to realize that Philly happened and update their points, I DO have 15, so I should be okay. Just a matter of finding transportation / lodgings -- gonna need to check with the locals.

Thanks, Tim, and shame you won't be able to make it to DC =(

[HoneyT]

I just double-checked. Apparently it took SCG forever to realize that Philly happened and update their points, I DO have 15, so I should be okay. Just a matter of finding transportation / lodgings -- gonna need to check with the locals.

Thanks, Tim, and shame you won't be able to make it to DC =(

Yeah unfortunately some of us live like 1200 miles away... However, if I win the Invitational I should be able to make it!!

[Arianrhod]

Yeah unfortunately some of us live like 1200 miles away... However, if I win the Invitational I should be able to make it!!

Hahaha, there's a plan!

[kavaki]

D.C. from my experience, the area at least has a lot of combo players and a lot of RUG/BUG decks.
I can assure you that wins do not come easy, even at the weekly legacy event I do.

But yeah, if you dont know your combo decks, your gonna have a bad time.

[Tao]

Unfortunately it looks like I won't be able to make it to DC

However as I said, I'll still be at the Invitational in Indy. Hope you can still make it Kevin.

Also, here's my up to date list as per request:

// Deck: P-Fire Nic Fit (60)

// Lands
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer

// Spells
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Punishing Fire
3 Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize

So since our lists are pretty similar I give you my reasoning for the differences:

- Why not just go with 4 Tops? That is the most important to me. I want a Top in my opening hand in every game in every matchup and if it is not there I want to draw it at any point in the game. It is the only nonland card that I never side it out and multiples are a lesser problem than with other cards because you can shuffle them away. Spending mana to cycle them is not ideal but it is still better than drawing 3 Punishing Fire against Reanimator and that doesn't stop us from playing 4 Fires.
- I also don't like the lack of additional targeted Discard. I think that the 2 Extra Thoughtseizes that I run make a big difference in the Combo matchups.

For the minor differences:
- I like Volrath's Stronghold a lot. I use it more often than Wolf-Run. I play both but I'd rather cut the Wolf-Run than the Stronghold.
- Now I know that Carpet is good and I don't blame you for running. But in the end, what is your plan with Carpet of Flowers? I argued for Carpet some time ago against Qweerios but he was right and I was wrong. I never noticed it but too often it was not as good as I thought it would be or I blew it up with Deed then I didn't go anywhere afterwards. I only REALLY want it in the RUG matchup. Against Shardless I don't like it at all because they will fetch for 1 Underground Sea and 2 Bayous and too often you will eventually blow up Deed or it will just eat a Decay. Against Miracles it is better but I often want to blow up Deeds to get rid of CB or RiP. A bit better, but still not ideal. Against Stoneblade/Deathblade or blue Combo decks I don't care about it at all and wouldn't even know what to side out for it.

[HoneyT]

So since our lists are pretty similar I give you my reasoning for the differences:

- Why not just go with 4 Tops? That is the most important to me. I want a Top in my opening hand in every game in every matchup and if it is not there I want to draw it at any point in the game. It is the only nonland card that I never side it out and multiples are a lesser problem than with other cards because you can shuffle them away. Spending mana to cycle them is not ideal but it is still better than drawing 3 Punishing Fire against Reanimator and that doesn't stop us from playing 4 Fires.
- I also don't like the lack of additional targeted Discard. I think that the 2 Extra Thoughtseizes that I run make a big difference in the Combo matchups.

For the minor differences:
- I like Volrath's Stronghold a lot. I use it more often than Wolf-Run. I play both but I'd rather cut the Wolf-Run than the Stronghold.
- Now I know that Carpet is good and I don't blame you for running. But in the end, what is your plan with Carpet of Flowers? I argued for Carpet some time ago against Qweerios but he was right and I was wrong. I never noticed it but too often it was not as good as I thought it would be or I blew it up with Deed then I didn't go anywhere afterwards. I only REALLY want it in the RUG matchup. Against Shardless I don't like it at all because they will fetch for 1 Underground Sea and 2 Bayous and too often you will eventually blow up Deed or it will just eat a Decay. Against Miracles it is better but I often want to blow up Deeds to get rid of CB or RiP. A bit better, but still not ideal. Against Stoneblade/Deathblade or blue Combo decks I don't care about it at all and wouldn't even know what to side out for it.

Top is great, and I'd also like to see one most games. That being said, I only want to see one in any given game. I hate drawing it in multiples. This deck has enough manipulation and raw power that I don't want to get flooded with extra do-nothings. I've been content with three in all my Nic Fit lists since the beginning of time.

It seems to me in general, you're trying to have a better game one against combo. That's fine. Valiant even. However, combo is not near as prevalent as the fairer decks around here. Maverick, Jund, Blade etc. I don't want to sacrifice percentage points against those decks when I'm perfectly confident in my ability to win games 2 and 3 against combo. Basically, I don't want to draw Thoughtseizes while my opponent is drawing Knight of the Reliquary, Jace, Bloodbraid, Shardless into Visions etc. I've never found the extra discard necessary except in the most combo-heavy metagames. Hence, you'll find my additional discard in the board.

I would consider Stronghold as a 24th land. I've used it in the past and it's fine. I don't really want to cut another colored source for it though. And Wolf Run has won me so many more games than Stronghold would it isn't funny. Generally speaking, my games don't get to the point where I need to resort to grinding them out with Stronghold.

I will cut Carpet of Flowers when it stops winning me games singlehandedly. Gosh I cannot even begin to sing enough praises to that card. I do agree with you about it vs Shardless though (I don't even board it in). Against the big blue decks (not RUG or Grixis) it's usually just a straight swap for Explorers when it's super dangerous to set them off. So against the decks like Miracles, Omnitell, and Blade. They still allow for turn 2 Slaughter Games against Omnitell or let you deploy threats and hold up REBs or whatever. As for the other big blue decks a la Miracles, they also do a ton of work. Mana advantage is KEY in control mirrors. And Carpets deliver that in spades. It's true, I've had to occasionally Deed away a Carpet vs Blade decks but by the time the game gets to that point, it's rarely relevant as it's already delivered a significant advantage. And as you already pointed out, Carpet is super insane against the tempo decks.

Note that I'm not saying any of your choices are wrong, just that we simply seem to have different goals and game-plans when it comes to deck construction.

[Arianrhod]

Alright, Punishing is all sleeved up and ready to go. I made a few small changes -- I added Volrath's Stronghold as the 24th land / 61st card (it probably isn't necessary, but the deck has so few wincons that I feel better with an extra level of rescursivity); and I cut the 2nd Eternal Witness for a Chandra, Pryomaster (figured that getting a little test data for Jeff wouldn't hurt, and I've moved away from the 2nd copy of E.Wit in most lists a long time ago). Other than that, and the sideboard because obvious meta difference, it's card for card.

I wanted to try the Raging Ravine, but I neither have one, nor was I willing to cut the 4th Grove of the Burnwillows for it.

[JeffHoogland]

Played more games of magic, ended up cutting Chandra as she just wasn't pulling enough weight.

Tried Huntmaster again, he seems to be worth his slot.

I cut back to two copies of two. There just aren't enough shuffle effect to reliably clear excess tops floating on the top of my deck - I don't like getting gummed up with them. I feel like Nic Fit is often favored when games go long and top is only good in the long game - so having only two copies is fine.

My planned deck list for Cleveland this weekend as of tonight:

Land (24)
1x Badlands
2x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Forest
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Mountain
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Raging Ravine
3x Swamp
1x Taiga
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Volrath's Stronghold
3x Wooded Foothills
Enchantment (3)
3x Pernicious Deed
Creature (10)
1x Eternal Witness
1x Huntmaster of the Fells Flip
1x Primeval Titan
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Thragtusk
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
4x Veteran Explorer
Sorcery (14)
4x Burning Wish
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Thoughtseize
Instant (6)
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Punishing Fire
Artifact (2)
2x Sensei's Divining Top
Planeswalker (2)
2x Liliana of the Veil
Sideboard (15)
1x Damnation
1x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Innocent Blood
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Pyroclasm
1x Reverent Silence
2x Slaughter Games
1x Thoughtseize
3x Trinisphere
3x Red Elemental Blast

Have any last minute thoughts feel free to let me know. Deck is a blast to play, that is for sure.

~Jeff Hoogland

[kavaki]

I still feel 3 is the right call as it ensures you see an average of 1 per game.
Other than that, your list looks fine and I love the double tower engine (stronghold and phyrexian).