1. Show and Tell is your best play against Chalice @ 1 decks, which lose to anything put in. ALso, playing your map/top before chalice is huge. All together though, Chalice beats you. There aren't supposed to be good cards for it. My teammate who only builds decks that beat me, includes chalice in nearly every deck. He even ran goblins with chalice for 1 main against me.Originally Posted by 203995014
2. The entire finesse of the deck is not playing Crop rotation into counters. The "best" time is in response to a wasteland, but often the card can be used aggressively to facilitate quick conversions of stable mana into eldrazi. Sometimes you want to draw out their counters with other threats that aren't threatening (I frequently cast show and tell against rug with no threats in hand simply to burn counters, and I ALWAYS ask if my tops resolve while trying to look pathetic while I have another one in hand).
3. Mud is a terrible matchup, and outside of Show and tell, your main plan is side in force of will, which are being shaved for more important counters. Of all the bad matchups, MUD is by far the worst. Thankfully, it is a terrible meta call at the moment.
Despite all this, if you wish to warp your other matchups and have a chance against MUD, include 3-4 seal of primordium in your sideboard and you're set.
Ran this tonight at my weekly legacy tourney. I fell to heavy hymn to tourach, and the mirror against Rock Lee. Beat UWR delver, and Drew Levin's new PW Control Nic Fit [which is sick]. Mediocre night but this has been testing very well and has X-0'd a different weekly legacy a few times now. I don't feel like there are any giant holes [except MUD, as said before, lol]
I've been pushing the more 'conservative approach'. Meaning no 3 color, and narrow(ish) 1-ofs. I think with swan song around, finally giving us reliable game against ancient tomb combo decks (which it really does help), it allows us to un-warp the deck. I said a handful of posts ago that I was hitting up 2012 lists, and I really feel like they're well positioned these days. Straight pile of UG consistency. This has been very well rounded for me.
List:
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Bajouka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Crop Rotation
4 Expedition Map
3 Show and Tell
3 Repeal
3 Oblivion Stone
3 Pithing Needle
SB:
4 Flusterstorm
3 Mindbreak Trap
4 Swansong
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Show and Tell
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Land Base: Besides being a sigh of relief from all of the underground seas and single basics I had messed with, I feel like it is very well balanced. 2 island to fully support swansong and flusterstorm. 3 basics total. 26 land which is made possible by a full 4 maps, and added repeal draw. 3 Vesuva has felt pretty good - I'm happy with how often I have islands early instead of often awkwardly copying their fetch. I still think 2 is too low, given that its one of the most powerful effects in the deck and a lot of the graveyard plan in our deck hinges around copying bog reliably.
No Kozilek: I realized that for 10 mana, an expedition map = eldrazi [map>activate>eye>activate], and more often than a draw four (while sometimes clutch), I want this path. Turned a card I hate seeing in my hand into a card that will make me keep a 1 spell hand. Switch has been great. Plus Map is very well positioned now.
Needle: I think needle is in a prime position right now, across all legacy. I've actually been using it to time walk them more than naming wasteland - though that luxury is getting a very warm welcome home. The card hits soo much.
Sideboard: Still very focused on combo, show and tell variants specifically. 8 early counters always buys enough time to set up a glen elendra, or trap under top. 13 counters is a LOT. Fits very well. The tabernacle has been great too. Its the first sideboard I have actually been comfortable with across the board.
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Overall, the meat and potatoes approach has been strong, and I don't see any gaping hole that has become an emergency.
I saw Rock Lee back on trinket mage tn, and I agree that that is also a good meta call right now. It might be sufficient to have him chump block instead of O-stone. Plus the card advantage was missed as I got hymned repeatedly today. I may take that list -3 O-Stone, +1 Mage +1 Candelabra +1 Repeal, or -2 Needle, +1 Mage +1 Candelabra and see how that fares. If we end up back in all colors of tempo season, I will pick the DRS back up - it was great for me in that environment, but for now, needle and repeal are the better speed bumps.
Do you guys feel the same about this take against the meta? How has everyone's swan song experience been?
Hi Tim,
i'm still substantially playing the same list i posted in the previous page, just as you did i have lowered vesuva count to 3 while adding a singleton breeding pool instead of your basic island, because there's nothing i hated more than having a titan in hand, a lot of colorless mana in play and just 2 basic island looking at me helplessy. I'm not sold on it, but i have to say that i tutor it every time i feel i don't immediately need its mana, so i can put it tapped into play saving 2 lifes.
I've added Tabernacle to the sb too (Young Pyromancer decks doesn't seem to appreciate it) together with a couple of Swan Songs, while shaving Glen Elendra and Fow, so my new sb looks like this:
4 Flusterstorm
3 Force of Will
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Swan Song
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Tabernacle
1 Thragtusk
I really cannot totally cut Fows, i think many combo decks are too fast not to have a quick 0 mana answer, that's why i prefer keeping them and limiting Swan Song to 2/3 copies. Song has been great at the moment (not so spectacular against omnitell since it doesn't counter Defense Grid), but i'm worried about our lack of colored mana to relyably cast, lets say on turn 2, both swan song and flusterstorm.
Also, while i like Glen Elendra once in play, i often found it a bit narrow. It's really slow, and i can't remember a time where i cast it while still having 2 more blue untapped lands ready to activate it twice. It's still the best thing to show against omnitell, i know...
You make a very good point with FOW. Especially with the double blue- I've been lucky to avoid that bottle neck. I'm going to but a few in and mix it around. The flusterstorms are the only thing completely safe.
I actually have glen elendra in there because I feel that she is versitile. As a counter yeah she's narrow but she blocks like a thragtusk. Relying on her as the first line of defense doesn't work, but each time I resolve her the game feels won.
I feel you pain and can see how breeding pool would help. I'm very protective of the basic forest I run and when I felt I needed help with Titan I went for cavern - which will be right back in if blue picks back up..
Here's the list I've been testing for a few weeks now:
// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
3 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
3 [ZEN] Island (8)
1 [LG] Karakas
// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 [FD] Trinket Mage
// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [US] Show and Tell
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
1 [M10] Pithing Needle
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
Very "oldschool" in this list. there WERE times I missed fow, so unsure about ditching it. The likely sub would be mindbreak trap though, rather than swan song or glen elendra. Still unsure. Also testing the 1 needle versus another land versus a 3rd candelabra. This build is significantly more combo-ey than previous builds, but in testing it is savagely consistent.
I was pondering lately about heavy discard matchups (BUG and Jund expecially) and i was looking for a card that could shore these ones a bit. I've always felt these game aren't really terrible but a bit randomic: if they hit the nuts with Hymn, then the game will be a real nightmare, if not it will be just fine.
Lurking here and there i found this Urza's Destiny uncommon card: Compost. Do you think it could deserve a try?
I like this list a lot. I know candles and kozileks play well together, but have you used that fast kozilek often?
Were mages and repeal always enough defense? I seem to always devote more slots for ostone and the like over your lists..
Force over trap seems logical because so many times trap is hard cast anyway. And it floats. We'll have to have Jeff break down probabilities on tues haha.
I've been struggling with this problem too. A lot of the time I shrug it off saying all decks lose to double hymn- but that's a lame excuse. I'm also looking into solutions and I bet compost would work if the meta is saturated with black, plus there's an awful lot of deathritre and others out there too.
The best regular way to fight it in my experience is to make sure you stick a top early, and defensively hold brainstorm because most hymn decks don't pressure hard. But overall hymn is a card we are weak to.
Just at that small event last week I hardcast Kozilek 4 times for the win. Once in two turns, with him getting countered in response to the trigger, shuffling, then drawing himself. After he got STP'd the 2nd time, my opponent said "How am I supposed to deal with you? I finally stopped Kozilek and you still have 7 cards in hand?" The beauty of Kozilek. There was a time when I ran TWO Kozilek in the deck, but this was pre-liliana printing and stifle-naught was a thing, so I relied on his 12/12 body after being stifled. I still might test a 3rd candelabra, since Kozilek pounding is very often GG.
No on compost. If it drew a card when being abrupt decay'd I would say "still no, but good idea," but yeah, too risky and too iffy. You would need to run the bonfire version for this, and even then you'd only be drawing 1-2 cards from it the entire game.
The better plan, is to know what is the threat/goal of your deck, how hymn can mess with it, and move forward from there. Since the deck's plan is mana fixing, play to those strengths. A turn 1 map vs their turn 2 hymn is a very good play, moreso because they have to decide to NOT abrupt decay it. Additionally, running higher land count can fix your hymn woes. Really though, the cards hymn is there as a -1 parity card for you, but since the vast majority of your deck stays on parity, you should be fine if you play defensively and attentive to your mana.
For me it's usually less of the mana screw issue, but more of a take-my-last-two-business-spells issue. Playing off the top with a few lands on board doesn't usually go well. So the top on board is huge because any Titan in hand isn't going to be there long. I'll mull basically any hand that doesn't feature at least 1 library manipulation, and with that 1 I'm looking for a second ASAP to then begin. Their plan is slow, and that one Goyf can be repealed along the way if you're engine is working..
I've been testing with Post again with a buddy and interestingly, we've also gone back to the 2012 UG lists. I'm even thinking of using Devastation Tide again to support the Repeals.
Hymn hurts a lot, but the real back breaker is the Liliana that comes after it.
That's sick haha. But I've been on the fence about wether or not high candle count and kozilek improves the consistency of the approach, or "win more". Yeah they're more comboey but know what I mean?
3 candles and more eldrazi calls that 4th vesuva from the bench
I feel like the 3rd candelabra is less risky than a 4th vesuva. Simply because opening hands are easier with 3 vesuva. Unless you are replacing the 3rd candelabra with an additional land, that being the vesuva itself, which is a viable option.
How well positioned is your list currently? I will be going to SCG Milwaukee next week and am really thinking about playing 12 post.
I went 3-1-1 in a small local tournament today earning some shop credit.
Matchups:
Round 1: BUG landstill 2-0
Round 2: 4c Opposition brew 1-1-1
Round 3: TES 1-2
Round 4: Shardless BUG 2-0
Round 5: TES 2-1
I used to play a seemingly random Steel Hellkite earlier but the 4th Exploration Map replaced it in order to get the big mana flowing as soon as possible. Glimmerposts and needles were doing most of the work today. Sideboard makes the TES matchup feel not terrible at all.
I wouldn't change a thing since this is working like charm in my meta. I have some idea on how to tweak the sideboard, though.
Deck: Turbo Eldrazi
//Main
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 Primeval Titan
2 Trinket Mage
4 Show and Tell
3 Pithing Needle
4 Crop Rotation
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Expedition Map
4 Repeal
2 Oblivion Stone
//Sideboard
4 Flusterstorm
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Oblivion Stone
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
Display deck statistics
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
In an unknown meta, would it be better to sideboard Force of Will or Swan Song? I really don't want to get trampled by Blood Moon but I hate Chalice of the Void also.
In addition, is the version of this deck Rock Lee posted a while ago with Deathrites and Thragtusks seen as better or is the original classic list on the first post still considered the best?
This is my current list BTW and is also the list that I am talking about that is 10 pages away, take out Elephant Grass for Venser
12-post Discord: https://discord.gg/QxYVg3g
As an answer to my current list. This is what I'm testing at the moment.
// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
3 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
2 [ZEN] Island (8)
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 [FD] Trinket Mage
// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [US] Show and Tell
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 3 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 2 [VI] Elephant Grass
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Sweet list! How has your experience been without brainstorm? I couldn't imagine my game plan working without manipulationI went 3-1-1 in a small local tournament today earning some shop credit.
Matchups:
Round 1: BUG landstill 2-0
Round 2: 4c Opposition brew 1-1-1
Round 3: TES 1-2
Round 4: Shardless BUG 2-0
Round 5: TES 2-1
I used to play a seemingly random Steel Hellkite earlier but the 4th Exploration Map replaced it in order to get the big mana flowing as soon as possible. Glimmerposts and needles were doing most of the work today. Sideboard makes the TES matchup feel not terrible at all.
I wouldn't change a thing since this is working like charm in my meta. I have some idea on how to tweak the sideboard, though.
Deck: Turbo Eldrazi
//Main
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 Primeval Titan
2 Trinket Mage
4 Show and Tell
3 Pithing Needle
4 Crop Rotation
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Expedition Map
4 Repeal
2 Oblivion Stone
//Sideboard
4 Flusterstorm
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Oblivion Stone
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
Right now I think we want a few of both, especially in an open meta. They're very similar, but the hard counter effect is so powerful right now with all of our problem matchups hinging on one key spell. The ratio between the four types of counters is something I'm always adjusting, but some FOW do seem to be needed.
While they're wildly different lists at first glance, they are for slightly different metas. DRS and tusk mostly shore up heavy tempo metas. With such a huge potential card pool a slight tweak can change a lot of cards. But overall the core of the UG deck is huge and very inertial - everything else is just a spin on top of that..
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