[Deck] The Rock

[Qweerios]

Both the other midrange decks have cascade creatures, we don't. That's the problem.

-Matt

Why should the Rock be scared of cascade creatures? Don't you have access to one of the best in the format: Stoneforge Mystic? I don't understand why SFM isn't part of the core of the Rock. I played this deck exclusively a few years ago and it was glaringly obvious that SFM + Bob made this deck the go-to midrange deck. People were experimenting with more classical tempo versions using Mox Diamond and Goyfs but when it came to card advantage, SFM + Bob Rock was at the top.

Why not use all the rock-solid synergy available to this color combination instead of playing vanilla beaters like Goyf or Loxodon Smiter when you have all the tools available to out-value most midrange decks nowadays. I also fail to see how playing numerous large beaters is being maximized by the deck's strategy. As someone else mentioned earlier, BGW's color combination strength is in its removal suite as it has all the cheapest and most resilient unconditional removal. This sort of removal suite allows for smaller creatures with value effects or heavy disruption because size is not a determining factor here.

I lent my rock deck to a friend that wanted to try out legacy about 6 months ago... he Top8'd a CMT filled with Jund (13 out of 40+ players) and Shardless BUG (saw 3 in the room) decks. I know he faced Jund twice and BUG once and completely crushed through the entire tournament. Meanwhile I got completely wrecked by Jund decks all day (3 rounds in a row) while I was on Stoneblade...

The deck I lent him wasn't even refined but followed a very strict and linear strategy: Discard, Removal, Value. It simply played all the best cards for those 3 purposes without trying to be cute. It looked a little something like this:


Creatures (12)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Spells (20)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Lingering Souls

Others (7)
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Lands (21)
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Swamp
1 Plains

Sideboard (15)
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Choke
1 Sword of Feast and Famine


Keep in mind that it was a long time ago and the list was a last-minute sketch stitched together with what cards we had left. We had Goyfs available but didn't feel like he consisted of any value or disruption so he was not played. KotR didn't add nearly as much value or disruption as his counterparts (Liliana and Souls) so he didn't make the cut either. Once again, raw size is irrelevant when you have the best unconditional removal available.

[sdematt]

You mischaracterized my statement since my posting is being limited by a forum error (I feel like I'm tweeting instead of posting). The problem is the other midrange decks can get so much value off of having cascade creature, but we don't have any in our colours to use for ourselves, thereby not creating as much card advantage.

The problem with SFM is that you have few ways to protect her, and you hope to use some discard and clear removal. I've discussed time and again why I don't prefer her, but if you can get something worked and putting up results, then it's a step in the right direction.

I'll be running my list tonight and I'll report.

-Matt

[sdematt]

So I did some more testing tonight against the discard-based midrange and Miracles, as well as random testing against UR Standstill to be the baddy for my friend to get some Lightning Bolt testing as well.

Suffice to say, discard hurts, but hurts less when you board in Souls and have Smiters. Smiter was ridiculously good and outclasses everything except Goyf, which usually bit the dust. Most plays where I lost Smiter were them having to block, then Bolt. Against the counter heavy decks with non-STP removal, X/4 is too big to beat, and uncounterable mattered 100%. In the midrange, the discard and power were better, and none had removal except Decay, which meant my Lilianas did survive and take games.

Miracles was okay preboard, then I murdered them postboard.

-3 STP, -3 Goyf, -3 Knight for +2 Charm, +2 Teeg, +2 Deed, +3 Thalia absolutely sealed it.

So far, I like.

-Matt

[.Ix]

I admit I have not played much with DD combo, but again - while it allows the knight to be a three turn clock, we are adding cards that do nothing with our other cards (well, DD feeds Shaman, but at that point of the game...). Do any card other than Knight interact in any way with DD? Do we run other lands we would really like to clone with Thespian Stage? Are we running anything that works well on its own, while also protecting the flying Cthulu? Surely with DD we would like to run some hexmages, which also take care of enemy planewalkers. But again - would they interact with anything else than DDs?

Try 1 Depths 1 Stage in the main (and maybe 1 Rotation) and you'll realize that all those thoughts you have about the combo aren't real issues. The transition from "hey I'm disrupting you and I know what you have in hand" to "oops 20/20 I win" is so smooth that you won't usually have to set it up at all. It just happens. The Rock's plan naturally protects the token because you frequently know if the enemy has any outs, and since it's EOT you never have to worry about sorcery speed answers. If you know the enemy has Swords in hand then ignore the combo until he uses the Swords on something else. Often, just having Thespian's Stage out is enough to force enemies to keep Swords mana up, or to never tap that Wasteland.

It's ok to have a card that does nothing by itself, since it's powerful enough to win the game outright. Think of Vintage and Time Vault. Vault does nothing by itself, but the combo is so powerful and so easy to assemble that it doesn't matter. It's the same thing with Depths. Obviously the power level is quite a bit lower, but still.

There is absolutely no need for Hexmage. It's really not necessary since you really should not be forcing the combo unless you are 100% sure it will hit, and Hexmage is not very good compared to other cards we could be running.

[crow_mw]

I will pass on the DD combo topic, leaving it to the more experienced ones of you. But as a short note to Qweerios - I agree with what Matt stated on previous page. We need to build against other midrange AND combo (mostly storm and s'n't variants). Even if Mystic is great against Jund and Shardless, she is quite bad against combo. And even if you opt to side her out you need to have entire sb dedicated to combo (your sfm package is 7 cards plus 6 spot removal cards)...

[Stuuch]

Here is my Rock list atm.

Creatures [14]
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic

Instants [7]
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries [9]
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
3 Lingering Souls

Planeswalkers [2]
2 Liliana of the Veil

Enchantments 1

1 Sylvan Library

Artifacts [4]
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Feast and Famine


Lands [23]
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
3 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

SB:

2 Zealous Persecution
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Pithing Needle
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Engineered Explosives

The SB has been dedicated mostly for combo decks. It has a lot of cards to bring in against combo for swords and lingering souls. I agree that even with mystic this deck is not that good against Shardless Bug. We can win but I think we are the underdog in that matchup. What would your sideboard plans be with this deck against Shardless and Jund?

[Manipulato]

Hey folks,
I had great succes with the SFM version too.
Went in 2 turneys with 10 Rounds 9:1...

If somebody is interested, here's the decklist's
http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/55403
http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/56809

SFM definitly won me a lot of games (Dragon Stompy, Elves->Jitte, Jund, RUG Delver->Batter skull).
Lingering Souls + SFM + Lilly are just super sweet <3

Only changes at the moment were -2 Golgari Charm + 2 Zealous Persecution...
I think souls + equipment gives the deck a lot advantages than just vanilla goyfs or Knights (better against point removal, Sword, AD, Vindicate, better against control, more effective against PW's, better in protecting our own PW's, more synergy with Lilly, more lifegain, better against discard etc.)
Even if they sword the SFM, you can easily hardcast him with Deathrite Shaman. The only weaknes is that you have a slower clock than with goyf/knight.Sure tempo is important against unfair decks but we can play all the sweet hatebears (Teeg, Thalia, Canonist) + heavy discard to crush them G2+3...
Especialy against RUG Delver SFM + Equipment (mainly Batterskull) is brutal against them were a goyf would not THAT good because we can block with goyf and they bolt ours after damage, sure its a nice body which cant be stifled but 4/4 lifelink + vigilance are realy strong...
It's surely not the "Perfect List" but I like it very much.

Greetings

[Qweerios]

I will pass on the DD combo topic, leaving it to the more experienced ones of you. But as a short note to Qweerios - I agree with what Matt stated on previous page. We need to build against other midrange AND combo (mostly storm and s'n't variants). Even if Mystic is great against Jund and Shardless, she is quite bad against combo. And even if you opt to side her out you need to have entire sb dedicated to combo (your sfm package is 7 cards plus 6 spot removal cards)...

Mystic is better than Goyf, KotR, and Smiter against both midrange and combo decks. It gives immediate CA that can be converted into any utility equipment available that best fit the matchup at hand. KotR has a useful ability but requires a tap activation, which is often too slow and not even what you need. The only matchups where vanilla size is relevant are tempo and mindless aggro. I currently see no better synergy for a BWG aggro-control deck centered on card advantage playing cards like DRS, Lingering Souls, and Dark Confidant than a SFM package with BSkull and Jitte.

There is this popular misconception out there that somehow large and low costed creatures are necessary, or even good, against combo decks (How many times have I read how Geist of Saint Traft was good against combo!). Fact is, it is such a weak strategy because vanilla creatures are simply not up to the plate vs. a combo deck. RUG doesn't beat combo because it plays Goyf and Delver, it beats combo because it plays zero dead cards against these decks postboard. Some decks even have so much disruption that they have to start taking out creatures, and guess which ones come out first? Not Mongoose, but Goyf.... because paying 2 mana for a 3/4 is more detrimental than paying 1 for a 1/1 that will remain so for its first 4 turns. All you need to beat combo with a creature deck is 1 creature, be it a Mongoose, Delver, Snapcaster, SFM, DRS, Bob, etc. All your other cards should be aimed at preventing them from winning. Combo doesn't simply "come back" if you don't have big enough creatures to kill them in time, they come back when you stop disrupting them.

[sdematt]

Here is my Rock list atm.

Creatures [14]
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic

Instants [7]
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries [9]
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
3 Lingering Souls

Planeswalkers [2]
2 Liliana of the Veil

Enchantments 1

1 Sylvan Library

Artifacts [4]
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Feast and Famine


Lands [23]
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
3 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

SB:

2 Zealous Persecution
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Pithing Needle
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Engineered Explosives

The SB has been dedicated mostly for combo decks. It has a lot of cards to bring in against combo for swords and lingering souls. I agree that even with mystic this deck is not that good against Shardless Bug. We can win but I think we are the underdog in that matchup. What would your sideboard plans be with this deck against Shardless and Jund?

Didn't see this at first. Oops.

Shardless:

+1 Chains
+1 Garruk
+1 EE
-3 Thoughtseize

Jund:
+1 Garruk
+1 EE
+1 Ethersworn Cannonist
-3 Thoughtseize


-Matt

[sdematt]

I think I'll be switching back to running 1 Relentless in the 75. It's another piece of removal against the other midrange decks, especially BUG where you want to get rid of Balefuls, and the tokens provided help wear down and provide food for opposing Lilianas.

4 Deathrite
3 Goyf
3 Knight
3 Smiter
1 Ooze
4 Dark Confidant

3 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Liliana

3 GSZ
3 Sylvan
3 STP
4 Decay

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Swamp (combat Blood Moon, cutting Bayou #4)
1 Forest
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

-BOARD--

2 Lingering Souls
2 Deed
2 Golgari Charm
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, GoT
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Garruk Relentless

-Matt

[phoenix4]

Hey guys! :D

I'm currently playing Modern (YES, I know, it's not legacy :P), where I have gone from G/W to a more G/B/W oriented deck. Bottom line for me, would be a Rock inspired deck, with only modern legal cards, so I only have to switch Paths with Swords and such...

4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Loxodon Smiter
4x Deathrite Shaman
2x Scryb Ranger
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Path to Exile (Swords to Plowshares, for legacy)
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Rancor
2x Scavenging Ooze..

plus 23 lands..

Now, if you all want me to take my thoughts and go somewhere else, I'll do that, but if you wanna help me, I'd appreciate any thoughts and/or comments on a Modern legal shell, that just won't die in legacy? :)

[Kich867]

Hey guys! :D

I'm currently playing Modern (YES, I know, it's not legacy :P), where I have gone from G/W to a more G/B/W oriented deck. Bottom line for me, would be a Rock inspired deck, with only modern legal cards, so I only have to switch Paths with Swords and such...

4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Loxodon Smiter
4x Deathrite Shaman
2x Scryb Ranger
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Path to Exile (Swords to Plowshares, for legacy)
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Rancor
2x Scavenging Ooze..

plus 23 lands..

Now, if you all want me to take my thoughts and go somewhere else, I'll do that, but if you wanna help me, I'd appreciate any thoughts and/or comments on a Modern legal shell, that just won't die in legacy? :)

Drop noble Hierarch, thalia, and Rancor, add Green Sun's Zeniths and Lingering Souls. Drop paths for swords as you mentioned, aaand.. probably stoneforge mystics with batterskull / jitte. None of those cards are expensive and you should be fine.

Golgari Charms are really great in the side as well.

[phoenix4]

Drop noble Hierarch, thalia, and Rancor, add Green Sun's Zeniths and Lingering Souls. Drop paths for swords as you mentioned, aaand.. probably stoneforge mystics with batterskull / jitte. None of those cards are expensive and you should be fine.

Golgari Charms are really great in the side as well.

The problem is, that only Lingering Souls is legal in Modern, which is the format I'm gonna play the most, but what about adding a Dryad Arbor in the legacy version with GSZ? Is it okay ramp?

[Kich867]

The problem is, that only Lingering Souls is legal in Modern, which is the format I'm gonna play the most, but what about adding a Dryad Arbor in the legacy version with GSZ? Is it okay ramp?

Oh sorry, I thought you were asking for like, a budget Rock deck for Legacy with mostly modern viable cards. No idea. I hear Doran is good? If you were going to play Rock colors I believe going planeswalkers would probably be the best but, honestly, I don't know shit about modern.

[sdematt]

In actual Modern? Are you asking for Modern advice from Legacy Junk players? I just want to make sure so we can give adequate advice.

I'd run something like:

4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize (if not, Duress)

4x Loxodon Smiter
4x Noble Hierarch (since there's so much Deathrite, avoid it)
4x High Priest of Penance
4x Dark Confidant
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

3x Liliana of the Veil
3x Lingering Souls
4x Path to Exile
3x Abrupt Decay

+5ish cards that are good in Modern. If the format is a giant BGx clusterfuck, run stuff that fucks it over. See: Loxodon Smiter, High Priest, Souls. High Priest chumps Goyfs and mucks, Smiter and Souls shit on Liliana. Noble avoids you having to get mucked by opposing Deathrites over mana, and Thalia beats smaller guys in combat. Add some Oozes, more removal if you want, or Garruk Relentlesses and you should be good. Too bad GSZ is banned.

-Matt

23 lands

[thecrav]

If you're running Smiter in place of 'Goyf and Knight, you've removed your reliance on the graveyard. Play RiP maindeck and hose the other BGx decks.

[sdematt]

If you're running Smiter in place of 'Goyf and Knight, you've removed your reliance on the graveyard. Play RiP maindeck and hose the other BGx decks.

Perfect suggestion that I was waiting for.

Even if your Souls don't get full value, that's alright. They will up until the point you muck all your opponents with RIP.

-Matt

[Megadeus]

I like that plan. So many decks are at least somewhat reliant on their yard

[phoenix4]

Hey guys! :D

That seems like some plans, thanks for your advice :D Hope to wreck som legacy players with this soon :D

[Manipulato]

Hey guys,
today we had a 16 man legacy event at our local store.
Went 3rd with a 4:1 ( 1st & 2nd Place had 4:1 too...)

Short Report:

Round 1: Burn ( Lost 1:2 after a mistake oft mine)
Round 2: mono Red Sneak Attack (Won 2:0)
Round 3: Mono B Reanimator (Won 2:0)
Round 4: BG Elves ( Won 2:1)
Round 5: Elves (Won 2:1)

Really strange MU today but who cares...
Here are the Top 4 Decklists...
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=11910