[Deck] Painter-Stone

[merfolkotpt]

I might up the opal count to 3 come the rule change, but in general, I think I am never unhappy with drawing LED, it just threatens so much on its own. Plus sometimes "discard your hand" is the nuts. As for auto four of on opal, I would ask, what are you cutting for the extra copies. The original problem where you sometimes don't have metalcraft and opal is mostly dead still exists and isn't helped at all by the legend rule change. If you have a suggestion for a 4 opal list I am happy to discuss it, but i don't think off the rip it is just better.

BTW, I won a little 8-man tournament this weekend with my (very close to Tk's) version of this deck. If everyone playing show and tell could just switch over to the "better" version with cunning wish and omniscience life would be so much better. Show and Tell actually becomes an easy MU when there is no Emrakul involved, and it sounds like the new legend rule (as well as the BoM results) might push people in this direction. This might end up being the most relevant post legend-rules change effect for us.

Earlier people were discussing running some number of MisD main, and I think the big thing to remember (assuming you are cutting FoW) is that in an established meta this might be the right call, but legacy just doesn't usually work that way. If the top 8 decks at scg opens were the only decks you saw at tournaments then sure it could be correct, but there is so much randomness in the format that is at least semi-viable it is hard to cut the oh sh*t button that is force of will.

I say this as someone who just picked up my 3rd jap misdirection and is continuously frustrated about force of will having no asian language printing in my otherwise all Japanese painter list. (Transmute and the dual lands are also exceptions to the all japanese all the time deck).

[Dice_Box]

I am kicking this in the ass, not because I have anything to add, but because more and more people are posting stuff that should be in this thread outside it and it needs a little love.

[Holden1669]

I am kicking this in the ass, not because I have anything to add, but because more and more people are posting stuff that should be in this thread outside it and it needs a little love.

One of those people is me. I've been experimenting with a mostly mono-blue version built around Transmute Artifact and Grand Architect that splashes black for Baleful Strix.


4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Grindstone
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Baleful Strix
3 Painter's Servant
3 Counterbalance
4 Transmute Artifact
4 Grand Architect
4 Force of Will
4 Spire Golem
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan

7 Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
1 Academy Ruins

sideboard
2 Spell Pierce
3 Back to Basics
2 Devastation Tide
1 Counterbalance
1 Platinum Angel
1 Contagion Engine
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Lodestone Golem
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ensnaring Bridge


So far I like the Architect and Spire Golem more than I thought I would. I'm thinking I should probably just up the Painter's Servant and Grindstone counts but I do really like the Wurmcoil and Sundering Titan alternate plans.

[Slag]

One of those people is me.

I'm the other.

So far I like the Architect and Spire Golem more than I thought I would. I'm thinking I should probably just up the Painter's Servant and Grindstone counts but I do really like the Wurmcoil and Sundering Titan alternate plans.

I am a big fan of having a back-up beatdown plan. It gives you more avenues to win, especially against decks with Emrakul, and allows you to focus on developing your control pieces against faster combo decks. I run Trinket Mage and Cloud of Faeries in my build, and have gotten a couple of wins through combat damage. Now, I actually run one piece of grave-hate in the main deck (that I can grab with mage, Fabricate, or Tolaria West), so I can theoretically respond to Emrakul triggers by removing the opponent's graveyard. Do you see enough show and tell to run some maindeck gravehate as a tutor target? I also see a lot of dredge in my meta, so I am rarely sad to have it.

[Holden1669]

I am a big fan of having a back-up beatdown plan. It gives you more avenues to win, especially against decks with Emrakul, and allows you to focus on developing your control pieces against faster combo decks. I run Trinket Mage and Cloud of Faeries in my build, and have gotten a couple of wins through combat damage. Now, I actually run one piece of grave-hate in the main deck (that I can grab with mage, Fabricate, or Tolaria West), so I can theoretically respond to Emrakul triggers by removing the opponent's graveyard. Do you see enough show and tell to run some maindeck gravehate as a tutor target? I also see a lot of dredge in my meta, so I am rarely sad to have it.

Good point. I could move the Nihil Spellbomb to the maindeck and cycle it or Transmute it away (for value!) at the very least. I'll try that replacing an Island and see how that goes.

So far I've only played this online and have faced Emrakul decks pretty regularly, which has been frustrating. Spellbomb maindeck definitely seems good.

How do you like Fabricate, Trinket Mage, Tezzeret, and Muddle the Mixture for tutoring?

[Slag]

How do you like Fabricate, Trinket Mage, Tezzeret, and Muddle the Mixture for tutoring?

I like them, except for Muddle, which was really just a placeholder for another Tezzeret. Collectively, they give a fair amount of redundancy, so I can play combo pieces into removal and still have a good chance of drawing more pieces. I will say that what kept them from being too slow was the fact that I ran ancient tomb and chrome mox. Transmute is probably the better card over fabricate, but for the fact that I'm running fewer artifacts that I want to sacrifice.

[merfolkotpt]

So I might be at odds with the mods here, in which case I will respectfully retract my opinion, however, the last couple of lists in here feel very different from traditional painter stone to me and could be in a separate thread (I know they were in one originally and were directed here).

I could critique the lists that are here, but I feel like I would be doing it from the frame of my style of list, and these are different enough that it might not make sense to do that.

That being said, if they are here, I am going to talk about them with respect to my own list. I want to know why a list with baleful strix and spire golem, are better than current technology. I think there are some interesting grind-ier lists out there (though Spire golem hasn't seen a lot of my testing) but my experience was that switching to those lists usually just made me a bad version of Miracles with RIP in it. I would much rather be focused very heavily on combo-ing quickly, with some resiliency and I think Transmute Artifact as an additional set of tutors lends itself to this. If you want to play a list that is focused on control with TA I guess it just seems like you would be better suited to play one of the various UB Tezz control lists floating around. Those lists might even want a blocker in the form of Spire Golem in them.

Maybe I am missing something fundamental but to me, we are playing a combo deck with force of wills (and in my case Welder) in it to win the game faster than our opponent, and shrug off their disruption, not to disrupt them, and then try to win incidentally.

[Holden1669]

So I might be at odds with the mods here, in which case I will respectfully retract my opinion, however, the last couple of lists in here feel very different from traditional painter stone to me and could be in a separate thread (I know they were in one originally and were directed here).

I could critique the lists that are here, but I feel like I would be doing it from the frame of my style of list, and these are different enough that it might not make sense to do that.

That being said, if they are here, I am going to talk about them with respect to my own list. I want to know why a list with baleful strix and spire golem, are better than current technology. I think there are some interesting grind-ier lists out there (though Spire golem hasn't seen a lot of my testing) but my experience was that switching to those lists usually just made me a bad version of Miracles with RIP in it. I would much rather be focused very heavily on combo-ing quickly, with some resiliency and I think Transmute Artifact as an additional set of tutors lends itself to this. If you want to play a list that is focused on control with TA I guess it just seems like you would be better suited to play one of the various UB Tezz control lists floating around. Those lists might even want a blocker in the form of Spire Golem in them.

Maybe I am missing something fundamental but to me, we are playing a combo deck with force of wills (and in my case Welder) in it to win the game faster than our opponent, and shrug off their disruption, not to disrupt them, and then try to win incidentally.

Yeah. Honestly I agree with you that this list isn't better than current technology. When I started brewing I was trying to see what I could do with Transmute Artifact. This naturally brought me to the Painter Grindstone combo but I didn't want to ignore the other possibilities for Transmute Artifact (namely tutoring for expensive artifacts ahead of "schedule" if you get an artifact with high cmc in play in some way- i.e. Spire Golem or Myr Enforcer in Affinity or as a terrible Entomb). The "issue" is that Painter Grindstone is just better in most situations. Why not tutor for something cheap and just win rather than get a Wurmcoil or Sundering Titan and not win?

And, incidentally, this is most of the reason why I didn't post here in the first place. It's more than likely that none of Baleful Strix, Grand Architect, or Spire Golem is good enough to make a list with Painter's Servant, Grindstone and Transmute Artifact. But their presence in the deck implies a different, more controlly approach that uses similar cards. I wouldn't expect my first attempt at this to compare favorably to an established (if fringe) deck like Painter Stone.

[merfolkotpt]

This is why i would point you in the direction of some of the UB tezz lists like this one: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/..._with_chr.html

It has a more controlling feel and is pointed more in the direction that your list seems to be. The real cool side is you can still get value out of a 2/4 flyer in a list like that as a (worse) baleful strix.

[SirTylerGalt]

While I love the "full-combo" version of U/R Painter (with Welder, Intuition, Transmute Artifact, and the alternative Wurmcoil win-con...), there is still a part of me that wants to build a grixis version that is less "full-combo" and more "combo-control".

The list would include 4 Baleful Strix, 2-3 Thirst for Knowledge, and 2-3 Tezzeret AoB. I just love the idea of using Goblin Welder on Strix and Top for value... Such a list wouldn't focus on the combo. It would play maybe 1-2 Painter and 1-2 Stone, and get the combo with Intuition / Transmute Artifact after establishing control of the board. It could also include the Thopter/Sword combo. I love the idea of using different win-cons depending on the opponent's deck and the situation.

The problem is, there is no good sweeper in the grixis colors :(

[kingtk3]

Not so sure about that: red offers pyroclasm, one of the best sweeper right now, and black has massacre, virtue's ruin, perish and damnation.

Moreover they are full of point removal, artifact and planeswalker destruction: they only lack enchantment removal.

I think that a mix of those can cover your necessities.

And btw, I like the idea of combo control too! But in another deck... ;-)

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Forum Runner

[Koby]

I was thinking that the lists running Transmute Artifact and Painter/Stone were attempting to maximize the use of that combo and adding other complimentary "Plan B"s. When I look at such lists, that's my only conclusion anyway; hence why I directed the two new threads over to here.

Using Transmute Artifact for value rather than combo is a different take, and like merfolkofpt has alluded, fits better in the UB Tezz deck as a psuedo-Tinker/tutor.

[emt37]

Random question: why are people playing the Imperial Recruiter version instead of the U/R one?

The U/R version seems to me so much solid.

[Koby]

Random question: why are people playing the Imperial Recruiter version instead of the U/R one?

The U/R version seems to me so much solid.

Novelty factor?
Budget (as much as that makes sense... $600 playset is still cheaper than FOW + Volcs + Fetches)

[Kap'n Cook]

Random question: why are people playing the Imperial Recruiter version instead of the U/R one?

The U/R version seems to me so much solid.

Each has strengths and weaknesses it depends on your style. I would argue the opposite but to each his own. Painter is just awesome in general

[emt37]

Each has strengths and weaknesses it depends on your style. I would argue the opposite but to each his own. Painter is just awesome in general

How can the U/R version be less solid than the Painter version?

Sure, you do not have Blood Moon, but you still have way more tutors, counters and brainstorm (you could even use thirst for knowldege).

Also Blood Moon is situational as hell (and the Imperial Painter auto-loses against show and tell decks while with the U/R version you can easily tutor a Tormod's Crypt/Nihil Spellbomb).

[Kap'n Cook]

How can the U/R version be less solid than the Painter version?

Sure, you do not have Blood Moon, but you still have way more tutors, counters and brainstorm (you could even use thirst for knowldege).

Also Blood Moon is situational as hell (and the Imperial Painter auto-loses against show and tell decks while with the U/R version you can easily tutor a Tormod's Crypt/Nihil Spellbomb).

They are both solid decks, I'm not knocking either. UR is a better pure combo deck. Red is the better disruption deck.

Show and Tell really isn't an auto loss at all. Mono blue Omni is hard, yes. But a ton of blasts help there. Sneak and Show is favorable due to ensnaring bridges, blasts, and revokers on sneak attack. Beat down with critters happens a lot. But again, this is just general knowledge.

UR has a better combo matchup and is faster. If that is your style, then this deck is better for you.

[kingtk3]

The strenght of the recruiter build is that its plan B (lock and beat down) comes easier than ours because they play many cards which fulfil different roles. For example, magus is both disruption and a beater, simian is an acceleration but still is a beater if you reach 3 lands, recruiter is a combo fetcher but a beater too, ecc...

Even if they face an emrakul deck they can still lock and aggro them because of their 7 moons and rebs (well, that's not true for a particular emmy deck, right Koby ).

However I still prefer the feel I get from the UR version because it is a real combo deck, while the recruiter version is more of a stompy with a combo in it.

[Koby]

Jacob Hilty's newest list:

Maindeck:
4 Painter's Servant
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Goblin Welder

3 Grim Monolith
4 Grindstone
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Mox Opal
4 Transmute Artifact

Lands
2 Great Furnace
2 Seat of the Synod
3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Spellskite
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Blood Moon
3 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast

Can't knock the performance of Nam Tran in T8 and Hilty himself in 19th. Still wondering if Grim Monolith is needed as a 3 of with an LED already included; or vise versa.

[TkDodo]

Jacob Hilty's newest list:

Maindeck:
4 Painter's Servant
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Goblin Welder

3 Grim Monolith
4 Grindstone
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Mox Opal
4 Transmute Artifact

Lands
2 Great Furnace
2 Seat of the Synod
3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Spellskite
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Blood Moon
3 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast

Can't knock the performance of Nam Tran in T8 and Hilty himself in 19th. Still wondering if Grim Monolith is needed as a 3 of with an LED already included; or vise versa.

Great to see the deck putting up results! This build is almost identical to what I took to GP Strassbourg ealier this year where I barely missed top 64 (not surprising since I started with Hilty's list).
Regarding your question: I think that 3 GM is neccessary, because its your primary Transmute sacrifice target. You can get either combo piece for free and float the 3 mana you need for the activision. I for myself cut the LED though and addded an Academy Ruins instead. The 21st land helps against tempo decks, especially if it also recurs our whole deck. In testing, the 3 mana speed bump for an all-in activision wasn't neccessary that often, especially if you have a FoW or a blast in hand, where you just don't want to discard your hand. It's great with Intuition though, it just doesn't come up that often when you only play a singleton, and most of the time, I just wished it was another land.