[Deck] 12 Post

[Lemnear]

I went 3-1-1 in a small local tournament today earning some shop credit.

Matchups:
Round 1: BUG landstill 2-0
Round 2: 4c Opposition brew 1-1-1
Round 3: TES 1-2
Round 4: Shardless BUG 2-0
Round 5: TES 2-1

I used to play a seemingly random Steel Hellkite earlier but the 4th Exploration Map replaced it in order to get the big mana flowing as soon as possible. Glimmerposts and needles were doing most of the work today. Sideboard makes the TES matchup feel not terrible at all.

I wouldn't change a thing since this is working like charm in my meta. I have some idea on how to tweak the sideboard, though.

Deck: Turbo Eldrazi

//Main
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 Primeval Titan
2 Trinket Mage
4 Show and Tell
3 Pithing Needle
4 Crop Rotation
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Expedition Map
4 Repeal
2 Oblivion Stone

//Sideboard
4 Flusterstorm
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Oblivion Stone
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

Display deck statistics

I have no clue how this list should ever steal a single game against TES ... No Thorn, No Chalice, just MBT which is a joke for TES.

[Hopo]

Sweet list! How has your experience been without brainstorm? I couldn't imagine my game plan working without manipulation

Thanks!
I have had the merfolk-syndrome with Brainstorm: I'd rather have more business than dilute the deck with a card that's suppose to find the said business. I never did well in tournaments or when testing with Brainstorm. To me Pithing Needle is way more important and in my deck they are pretty much fighting for the same space. It feels a bit same as Deathrite Shaman: everybody claimed how good it is but in practice it never did anything good for me. Could be a metagame thing, though, because everything usually is.

[Hopo]

I have no clue how this list should ever steal a single game against TES ... No Thorn, No Chalice, just MBT which is a joke for TES.

What do you mean by "just MBT"? The relevant cards would be
4 MBT
4 Flusterstorm
2 BEB
1 Venser
1 Tabernacle
4 Crop rotation -> Bojuka Bog/Chasm/Tabernacle
and for those once in a lifetime moments: 4 Repeal (bounce a mox in response to hellbent tutor).

Top helps you float counters on top of your library but you are soft to Silence.

Nonetheless, fast non-graveyard-combo is probably the worst matchup. You should pretty much always lose game 1 unless some of the following happens:
1) a surprise Bojuka Bog to mess with mana maths, IGG or Past in Flames
2) you get to Show and Tell a Titan into massive lifegain
3) you get to Rotate a Glacial Chasm to stop goblin tokens/Belcher
4) you get to Oblivion Stone them back to stone age for some reason

Of course it helps if people are unfamiliar with the deck and especially sideboarding.
I don't know what kind of hand my last round opponent kept in game 1 as I had time to hardcast two Titans. He should have clearly mulliganed.

If I decide that the storm matchups needs more attention, I would try some additional hate permanents in sideboard as Silence is bad news.

[Lemnear]

What do you mean by "just MBT"? The relevant cards would be
4 MBT
4 Flusterstorm
2 BEB
1 Venser
1 Tabernacle
4 Crop rotation -> Bojuka Bog/Chasm/Tabernacle
and for those once in a lifetime moments: 4 Repeal (bounce a mox in response to hellbent tutor).

Top helps you float counters on top of your library but you are soft to Silence.

Nonetheless, fast non-graveyard-combo is probably the worst matchup. You should pretty much always lose game 1 unless some of the following happens:
1) a surprise Bojuka Bog to mess with mana maths, IGG or Past in Flames
2) you get to Show and Tell a Titan into massive lifegain
3) you get to Rotate a Glacial Chasm to stop goblin tokens/Belcher
4) you get to Oblivion Stone them back to stone age for some reason

Of course it helps if people are unfamiliar with the deck and especially sideboarding.
I don't know what kind of hand my last round opponent kept in game 1 as I had time to hardcast two Titans. He should have clearly mulliganed.

If I decide that the storm matchups needs more attention, I would try some additional hate permanents in sideboard as Silence is bad news.

It's because all those reactive spells fall victim to Silence and Xantid Swarm. Crop Rotation does nothing against Tendrils but only against EtW or Grapshot. OmniTell can ignore your Titan and it's tutored lands.

I think the fact, that your TES opponents plain beat themselves (as it seems), overshadows the urge to adjust the 75 more towards the combo-matchup. MBT is a horrible choice to adress combo: it is easily avoidable for storm and totally dead against S&T and even stuff like Doomsday Maniac

[Hopo]

Like has been said, fast combo is the worst but not impossible. You still can and will win every now and then. Rock Lee has some sb configurations that are addressing the omni-tell meta. In my area the deck just doesn't exist. I'm happy with the level of protection I have now but I admit it would feel even better with Brainstorms.

[Blastoderm]

Like has been said, fast combo is the worst but not impossible. You still can and will win every now and then. Rock Lee has some sb configurations that are addressing the omni-tell meta. In my area the deck just doesn't exist. I'm happy with the level of protection I have now but I admit it would feel even better with Brainstorms.

I had grips/trinisphere in my sb when my meta had like 3 omni tell decks lol

[TimHarding]

It's because all those reactive spells fall victim to Silence and Xantid Swarm. Crop Rotation does nothing against Tendrils but only against EtW or Grapshot. OmniTell can ignore your Titan and it's tutored lands.

I think the fact, that your TES opponents plain beat themselves (as it seems), overshadows the urge to adjust the 75 more towards the combo-matchup. MBT is a horrible choice to adress combo: it is easily avoidable for storm and totally dead against S&T and even stuff like Doomsday Maniac

I do agree that the list is light on TES defense. And if he's facing 2 of them in a 5 round I'd definitely up the hate. But the deck isn't a total dog to it. I actually pilot TES often and the density of relevant cards post has is way above most other legacy decks, even maindeck. Crop/repeal arent king but they're more of a threat than stone forge mystics and slots other decks have. Plus, the game two and three basically eliminates the warrens path with chasm and tabernacle.

I went into a small event expecting MUD and TES with this board:

4 Fluster
4 Force of Will
1 Show and Tell
1 Tabernacle
3 Swan Song
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Cursed Totem(relevant across the meta)

Now, as the TES pilot (and I've been there), fighting through a pile of counters (Hopos even had 10 or so) is definitely not a cake walk, on top of the many relevant maindeck cards. Plus, post can suddenly be at turn three 30 life then turn 4 manymany life (which should be on the post players mind). So now fitting in this window wanting a xantid attack step - without it getting repealed & no reliable warrens path or past in flames is really an uphill battle.

But the real take away here is that in addition to up to 12 counters- our lands, creatures, tutors, AND removal is relevant in the match and really adds up. The post pilot must play to the approach of TES. When I pilot TES I find playing the rug waste/daze game is at least a 1D defense and easier to win over a tuned post board. And yes, any deck is going to lose to G3 TES silence and kill you before you get a land drop - but it won't be a warrens kill lol

How do you improve the matchup?

[Lemnear]

Come on ... It's not that this decks cards are interchangeable in that matchup. It begins with the colorless lands and ramping to Titan vs. Blue Duals and counterspells and ends with too many scenarios straight from winterwonderland like having a miraculous Crop Rotation against Plan-B-Engines or Repeal against Swarm (which TES still can replay through your suggested Flusterstorms and Swan Sings).

You can see all of it coming for miles, if you have to deal with turn 3-4 lifegain or a slow-rolling counter-strategy, TES can easily adjust to those and it's not uncommon, that Ad Nauseam into PIF enables Tendrils to leech 60+ lifepoints (my current tournament Record is a stormcount of 54).

Relying on counterspells without a clock is a loosing strategy against storm. I'd rather consider interrupting the gameplan with Thorn of Amethyst (no color restrictions) or discard (no pressure to have a certain count of blue cards).

[Davek]

Come on ... It's not that this decks cards are interchangeable in that matchup. It begins with the colorless lands and ramping to Titan vs. Blue Duals and counterspells and ends with too many scenarios straight from winterwonderland like having a miraculous Crop Rotation against Plan-B-Engines or Repeal against Swarm (which TES still can replay through your suggested Flusterstorms and Swan Sings).

You can see all of it coming for miles, if you have to deal with turn 3-4 lifegain or a slow-rolling counter-strategy, TES can easily adjust to those and it's not uncommon, that Ad Nauseam into PIF enables Tendrils to leech 60+ lifepoints (my current tournament Record is a stormcount of 54).

Relying on counterspells without a clock is a loosing strategy against storm. I'd rather consider interrupting the gameplan with Thorn of Amethyst (no color restrictions) or discard (no pressure to have a certain count of blue cards).

Lemnear, i feel you're right... and wrong, at the same time.
You're totally right when you say Post latest sideboards are poor against a decent TES pilot, that they're soft to a xantid swarm and that you can easily win from there. It's true, even if Post-player can repeal it for 1 turn, you'll probably end replaying it again. But we are speaking of TES, which is a rather rare animal (just as Post is) and has different tools from the most popular storm deck, ANT (which is a lot easier to play) and its recent versions. A couple of days ago, while playing against a classical ANT, i kept this no-land hand:
2 Mindbreak Trap, 1 Crop Rotation, 1 Fow, 1 Top, 1 Brainstorm, 1 Flusterstorm

I snap-kept it. "I don't mind if ther's no clock nor a single land, a classical ANT will have a hard time fighting through this" i thought. To make a long story short, it ended as i expected, and the ANT player lost the game. As a post-player, having a clock against combo is not important at all, it's important not to lose the game. But as i said you have a point with TES.


Speaking about combo sideboarding, i'm not so happy with Glen Elendra Archmage, i'm thinking about cutting her and a MBtrap while adding a pair of Arcane Laboratories (that come in handy against Omnitell too). What do you guys think about them? Are they too slow?

[Hopo]

Sure, you are likely not going to ramp into Titan without Show and Tell but sometimes all it takes is an arrogant or ignorant storm player keeping a mediocre or graveyard-dependent hand to get punished by an instant Bog.

I would say that Trinisphere in this deck is more effective against Omnitell than storm as you have no way to play it before turn three. I would go for Chalice or Sphere of Resistance. I see no big reasons to play Thorn over Sphere as the latter also deals with another problem deck, Elves and you hardly play creatures yourself.

[TimHarding]

Come on ... It's not that this decks cards are interchangeable in that matchup. It begins with the colorless lands and ramping to Titan vs. Blue Duals and counterspells and ends with too many scenarios straight from winterwonderland like having a miraculous Crop Rotation against Plan-B-Engines or Repeal against Swarm (which TES still can replay through your suggested Flusterstorms and Swan Sings).

You can see all of it coming for miles, if you have to deal with turn 3-4 lifegain or a slow-rolling counter-strategy, TES can easily adjust to those and it's not uncommon, that Ad Nauseam into PIF enables Tendrils to leech 60+ lifepoints (my current tournament Record is a stormcount of 54).

Relying on counterspells without a clock is a loosing strategy against storm. I'd rather consider interrupting the gameplan with Thorn of Amethyt (no color restrictions) or discard (no pressure to have a certain count of blue cards).

I know you're also often on the TES thread and I can appreciate the bias. I'm saying that yes any game 1 win is a true steal for post but games 2 and 3 bring it much closer to even, with TES possibly still ahead. It's not anywhere near as troublesome as MUD. Overall I've had a pretty good experience against storm.

As far as arcane and the like said below, they're all nice but still a little slow IMO, I haven't been sold on any permanent based hate although I want some.

[Lemnear]

I know you're also often on the TES thread and I can appreciate the bias. I'm saying that yes any game 1 win is a true steal for post but games 2 and 3 bring it much closer to even, with TES possibly still ahead. It's not anywhere near as troublesome as MUD. Overall I've had a pretty good experience against storm.

As far as arcane and the like said below, they're all nice but still a little slow IMO, I haven't been sold on any permanent based hate although I want some.

It's not being biased, but experienced from playing the matchup from the other side of the table and it's sometimes sad to see a lack of resistance from various decks. That's why I dip here and there into some threads, trying to give some input of how to tackle storm.

I was locally and by this thread a bit disappointed to see a lack of actual threatening cards for storm like the mentioned Thorn of Amethyst or the evergreen Chalice of the Void which have other applications too. The overload on counterspells hurts the development of 12-post without match, being a complete counterintuitive gameplan (quick ramp vs. Slow-Roll control; colorless lands vs. Blue Duals) which is also easy to dismantle with Silence or Swarm which storm can unmolested dig for, unlike doing so under Sphere, Thorn or Chalice.

I had no other intention than improving this deck...

[J-Funk]

It's not being biased, but experienced from playing the matchup from the other side of the table and it's sometimes sad to see a lack of resistance from various decks. That's why I dip here and there into some threads, trying to give some input of how to tackle storm.

I was locally and by this thread a bit disappointed to see a lack of actual threatening cards for storm like the mentioned Thorn of Amethyst or the evergreen Chalice of the Void which have other applications too. The overload on counterspells hurts the development of 12-post without match, being a complete counterintuitive gameplan (quick ramp vs. Slow-Roll control; colorless lands vs. Blue Duals) which is also easy to dismantle with Silence or Swarm which storm can unmolested dig for, unlike doing so under Sphere, Thorn or Chalice.

I had no other intention than improving this deck...

Lemnear, thanks for your input man. I've been running Chalice in my sideboard over the overload of Color-based instant speed countermagic, and it's been a godsend. I think certain countermagic still makes sense (Mindbreak and Fluster imho), but that's where it ends for me. I've been planning on implement sphere as another possibility and every day I get close and closer to throwing it in there.

[203995014]

Can Mystic Remora be considered as sideboard tech vs. Hymn to Tourach and whatnot? The Cumulative Upkeep cost is paid fairly easily similar to Elephant Grass and it does draw quite a bit of cards for you.

[Lemnear]

Can Mystic Remora be considered as sideboard tech vs. Hymn to Tourach and whatnot? The Cumulative Upkeep cost is paid fairly easily similar to Elephant Grass and it does draw quite a bit of cards for you.

Mystic Remora + Repeal is an age-old Vintage interaction, but without a very fast and relyable way to race the com. upkeep (Beta Moxen!) it's hard to not restrict you more than your opponent in a format evolving around creatures which Remora ignores.



@J-Funk
It took me months to convince peeps in the Elves thread that Mindbreak Trap is a one-trick-pony against storm, because it can easily be outplayed with Silence, Swarm, Duress, Therapy and even with Infernal -> Ad Nauseam if you have enough permamen-based manasources in play.

[Megadeus]

I have no clue how this list should ever steal a single game against TES ... No Thorn, No Chalice, just MBT which is a joke for TES.

I lost to burn at an Open... But he was running MB Pyrostatic Pillar (Seriously wtf?) and then I mulled to 5 with hot garbage in G2 and died on T3. Sometimes you just dont get there with TES

[Jay_Gatz]

I lost to burn at an Open... But he was running MB Pyrostatic Pillar (Seriously wtf?) and then I mulled to 5 with hot garbage in G2 and died on T3. Sometimes you just dont get there with TES

I probably would have called a judge to check his deck list over main deck pillars

[TimHarding]

It's not being biased, but experienced from playing the matchup from the other side of the table and it's sometimes sad to see a lack of resistance from various decks. That's why I dip here and there into some threads, trying to give some input of how to tackle storm.

I was locally and by this thread a bit disappointed to see a lack of actual threatening cards for storm like the mentioned Thorn of Amethyst or the evergreen Chalice of the Void which have other applications too. The overload on counterspells hurts the development of 12-post without match, being a complete counterintuitive gameplan (quick ramp vs. Slow-Roll control; colorless lands vs. Blue Duals) which is also easy to dismantle with Silence or Swarm which storm can unmolested dig for, unlike doing so under Sphere, Thorn or Chalice.

I had no other intention than improving this deck...

Understood, and it's appreciated - all of your points led me to cut MbT. And while the chalice/and everyone's sphere idea that's appetizing might be where to go, the board I listed is good against an open combo field and relevant against devastating dreams, moon and other chalice decks - TES isn't quite popular enough to pull many slots away from the snt combos and such..

[Davek]

A question for all of you who use to sb Chalice against stormy decks... at what cc do you set it? 0? I feel that we are so slow that ANT or TES can prepare themselves to go off even without relying on their artifact mana... 1? We would shut all our manipulations, so it's totally wrong for me... 2? It would be fine, but slow as hell...

[Lemnear]

A question for all of you who use to sb Chalice against stormy decks... at what cc do you set it? 0? I feel that we are so slow that ANT or TES can prepare themselves to go off even without relying on their artifact mana... 1? We would shut all our manipulations, so it's totally wrong for me... 2? It would be fine, but slow as hell...

Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox and LED (Infernal Tutor!!) are essential for Ad Nauseam. Against the route of Past in Flames you have a lot more time