Miracle Control

[YamiJoey]

One of the major problems is that you can't capitalise on her second ability all that well. If you run a version with Venser and Clique, you could do the aggro beats plan fairly effectively. EoT Clique into Elspeth on a relatively low-threat hand and board seems like it's going to cause problems, and jumping a Venser definitely helps push through. You also get to have a 1/1 on board post Terminus, and she makes Entreating for a smaller amount a little more threatening. (2 Angels on their own become a 2-turn clock, without any help from your opponent's fetchlands.)

She seems great, but you'd have to be making use of her second ability, or else it seems like wasted potential.

Or we could play Sun's Champion and really fuck with people.

[Dzra]

She seems great, but you'd have to be making use of her second ability, or else it seems like wasted potential.

I've beaten BUG more than once using her to jump Vensers. It is incredibly hard for them to deal with > 3cmc permanents. Again I'm not sure that an Entreat wouldn't have just been better, but she can definitely win games by going on the offensive.

[YamiJoey]

I've beaten BUG more than once using her to jump Vensers. It is incredibly hard for them to deal with > 3cmc permanents. Again I'm not sure that an Entreat wouldn't have just been better, but she can definitely win games by going on the offensive.

Yep, exactly like my second sentence suggests. She'd be quite cool, and I may try her in the Bant shell I was looking into.

[KZhang]

I've beaten BUG more than once using her to jump Vensers. It is incredibly hard for them to deal with > 3cmc permanents. Again I'm not sure that an Entreat wouldn't have just been better, but she can definitely win games by going on the offensive.

Agreed. Elspeth is really good against fair decks. As a side note, always happy that i run her when my entreat gets hit by surgical extraction

[kaosjr]

I tested Elsepth and she was quite miserable except on an empty board which I would rather have jace anyway.

[blacknapkins]

Agreed. Elspeth is really good against fair decks. As a side note, always happy that i run her when my entreat gets hit by surgical extraction

I have an Elspeth in the sideboard of my Punishing Legends build and she has been fantastic. I bring her in for the grind against fair decks and she has turned countless matches in my favour. She offers a great way to stall the game, apply pressure against opposing planeswalkers and ultimately finish the game efficiently. I've never tested the 3rd Entreat (though I'm sure it's effective) but I like running the Elspeth in its place in the sideboard. That slot, whether it's Entreat or Elspeth, is an additional bomb to help break open the game in grindy matches. I like that my additional bomb doesn't require any setup.

[supachai]

I dislike Elspeth as well. The 3rd Entreat is a little clunky sometimes, but that's its only real downside. Elspeth is a little clunky itself, and doesn't do a whole lot. Creating a 1/1 token when you're staring down multiple Goyfs isn't very good. Entreating for anything greater than 2 will hold off the Goyfs for a while. I wouldn't ever trade the crushing late game power of Entreat for Elspeth.

[HammafistRoob]

@oarsman- I was watching you stream the legacy daily and I can't make comments on my phone for some reason.
In round 3 against Elves why didn't you bring in the Blood Moon? They only play at max two basics, so it has potential to lock them out, especially if they don't see it coming. Even if it doesn't lock them out, it at least slows them down quite a bit and shuts off their Cradles. Just some food for thought, most people don't realize how effective it actually is versus the pointy ear deck.

[Lemnear]

@oarsman- I was watching you stream the legacy daily and I can't make comments on my phone for some reason.
In round 3 against Elves why didn't you bring in the Blood Moon? They only play at max two basics, so it has potential to lock them out, especially if they don't see it coming. Even if it doesn't lock them out, it at least slows them down quite a bit and shuts off their Cradles. Just some food for thought, most people don't realize how effective it actually is versus the pointy ear deck.

Lol no. While it IS a good card against Elves because of all the Fetches, Arbors , Cradles and Duals, it's NOT good if you cast it turn 3+ If they already had their Glimpse or NO with a field flooded with dorks producing green mana.

[HammafistRoob]

I'm seriously sick of seeing you degrade every idea you see, please stop acting like you've tested every build of every deck in every matchup.

It's obviously not good by itself, but this is a deck with a good amount of sweepers. If the field is flooded with dudes you're probably in a bad spot if you don't have the Terminus. If you land either a CB/Top lock or a Moon after taking out all their guys you have a massive advantage if they lack the Decay(they only play 3 max). Maybe it's not good enough, because the tough part is slowing them early, but it's worth some testing. I was hoping I could get a better explanation as to why Joe thinks it's not worth the inclusion. It could be stronger than something else.

[Lemnear]

I'm sorry that I degrade ideas which are unfitting or farfetched like the idea to have the pure lucky nuts of Terminus-their-board-turn2-or-3 and drop CB+Top+Bloodmoon with all their manacosts and setups against a combo-deck.

I DO play Elves, TES, Maniac Doomsday and Miracles myself, so I dare to give my 0.02$ to those threads and here I don't see the need to establish Bloodmoon AFTER you already traded 1-for-X with terminus. In fact, sweeping 1-2 times the board is more than enough to close out the game with 3 Entreat, therefore, if the matchup seems to be a problem, I'd rather have more Pyroclasm in my board (aside the fact that postboards focus of Elves is to bring down Progenitus).



With the return of Dark Maverick and tribal I recently cutted all MB Terminus for Pyroclasms for more relyable boardsweep against Goblins, Elves, Meerfolk, Maverick, Delver variants and nasty Synergy with RIP (KotR, Goyf, Goose). Obviously I upped the Entreat count to 4 for 3-mana-walls against Delver and shit and closing games fast in aggro mode. Top4 in the last 27 peeps tourney last week as a debut. Not that bad considering the loss agains OmniTell in the Semis

[HammafistRoob]

A little better, going by the logic in your first post half of the cards in the deck are bad. He didn't have access to Pyroclasm, which would obviously be better than Moon, but sometimes you gotta work with what you're given. I'm not sure if Vendilion Clique is really that good in the matchup either which was the main reason I brought it up.

I also wouldn't call sweeping the board once more than enough at all since they can usually bounce a guy or two and attempt another chain in a few turns. It's not a bad matchup but it's not the best either, and Elves has definitely been gaining more and more popularity as of late.

Since you've upped your.reliance on red mana, I assume you play the maindeck Mountain as well? Pyroclasm seems good in the right meta, it doesn't sweep stuff like Batterskull, Emrakul, or Goyf though so I'm not sold on playing 0 Terminus.

[Lemnear]

Yes, i altered my manabase according to that. I have Tithe in addition fixing that one and try to handle stuff like Emrakul, skull, Goyf and Reanimator targets with RIP, Jace, Venser, StoP and a grain of luck. ;)

I won't bore you with the manabase without a fixed MB and SB (some changes have to be made after the tournament obviously)

Found Blue elemental Blast insanly useful between battling Sneak Attack, Goblin Lackey, Burning Wish, Past in Flames as well as annoying Blood Moons


Edit: don't like Clique either here ... it's a 3-mana-may-catch-a-slow-NO

[Dzra]

Edit: don't like Clique either here ... it's a 3-mana-may-catch-a-slow-NO

I don't think I hate Clique against Elves. They have a lot of redundancy at first glance, but I can imagine a lot of things I'd want to ship during their upkeep (Glimpse, NO, GSZ, etc). If you need the room then sure, but I'd probably cut Entreat before Clique.

[klaus]

With the return of Dark Maverick and tribal I recently cutted all MB Terminus for Pyroclasms for more relyable boardsweep against Goblins, Elves, Meerfolk, Maverick, Delver variants and nasty Synergy with RIP (KotR, Goyf, Goose).

Very interesting move. I could definitely see this being an improvement in the right meta. What actually makes me want to give it a shot is that Clasms smoothly pimp out the CB curve: the CMC2 slot has clearly been underrepresented in my SCM-less takes recently.

[Lemnear]

Very interesting move. I could definitely see this being an improvement in the right meta. What actually makes me want to give it a shot is that Clasms smoothly pimp out the CB curve: the CMC2 slot has clearly been underrepresented in my SCM-less takes recently.

That was intended to support my 4 MD CB in game 1 against storm combo as well as catching Hymn, SFM and Goofy.

Most of the creatures i want to get rid off with an early Terminus also fall victim to Clasm. This has proven crucial being on the draw against fast threats like Goblins, Elves, DRS, Geist, Confidant, SFM, Thalia and especially Teeg which Terminus can't solve

[Strassbaw]

What up Miracle Control peeps,

I've been playing a 4 color not blue agro deck and I have NEVER won a match against this archetype (only 2 ties cause Top can make games go forever in the wrong hands). I was wondering which sideboard cards Miracle Control decks fears the most.

I run 4x abrupt decay in my sideboard, but it is not enough to win the long matches. I feel like planeswalkers, sulfuric vortex (which I probably shouldnt run cause I run Deathrite shaman) and some type of way to remove multiple enchantments and/or artifacts may be a good way to increase a mid range agro deck of having a chance in this match. Shutting down Top with a pithing needle is probably going to be the next card I will try but it seems kinda weak. Any feed back would be appreciated. I have 6 or so match losses against this deck, and this deck has been my worst match up in the legacy format.

Thanks!

[YamiJoey]

Gaddok Teeg, Thalia, and Abrupt Decay are all excellent cards to play against us. Krosan Grip can also get there, as it pops our Top if we don't have a Counterbalance up, and that's pretty major, but I have played a version that had 4 Tops and 2 Tutors, so it's rarely difficult to find a second Top in a game if need be.

Aside from that, it's just about not overextending into Termini, but not applying so little pressure we don't care. You need to make sure we have to cast Spells to deal with the things you're doing, without losing to the cards we do cast, or else you're just going to let us put Lands into play and make 5 Angels to kill you, or we'll assemble one of our many contraptions and you'll lose from there on.

[twndomn]

I run 4x abrupt decay in my sideboard, but it is not enough to win the long matches. I feel like planeswalkers, sulfuric vortex (which I probably shouldnt run cause I run Deathrite shaman) and some type of way to remove multiple enchantments and/or artifacts may be a good way to increase a mid range agro deck of having a chance in this match. Shutting down Top with a pithing needle is probably going to be the next card I will try but it seems kinda weak. Any feed back would be appreciated. I have 6 or so match losses against this deck, and this deck has been my worst match up in the legacy format.

Thanks!

Try creeping tarpit. Also, shutting down Top is not weak.

[SirTylerGalt]

Try creeping tarpit. Also, shutting down Top is not weak.

He cannot play Creeping Tar Pit in a "4 color not blue agro deck".