[Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

[Zirath]

What about Saprazzan Skerry and/or Coalition Relic?

MUD can't afford to miss plays on Turn 1 like that, especially for a fragile land.

Coalition Relic is a card I've thought about many times for splashes.

[paeng4983]

@paeng: what are you worried about? Are you playing or playing against MUD?

Most of the time I'm playing against it.
I just want to know the chances of seeing a chalice for one with MUD.
I've encountered MUD decks and most of our game one, they have this chalice for one which really upset me especially if i have a bunch of 1cc in my opening hand.

Thanks for your replies.
cheers

^_^

[Airwave]

Hi there,

I'm completely new to legacy and started last week playing MUD.
The decklist I used in a small local tournament:

Main:
4 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Platinum Empiron
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Myr Battlesphere

1 Mindslaver

3 Lightning Greaves
4 Grim Monolith
4 Lotus Petal
1 Voltaic Key

1 Mountain
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard:

2 Blood Moon
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Trinisphere
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Masticore
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Whipflare
1 Spine of Ish Sah


I went 2-4, still having some trouble piloting the deck due to lack of experience and.... terrible hands.
I almost had to mulligan every game. While sometimes this was just bad luck the deck also tends to be "unstable" (already knew this thanks to this topic)

Furthermore, I think Chalice of the Void is a great card, but I found that is doesn't provide enough protection/hate to put it in the main deck.
So I'm now thinking about some changes:

- 4 Chalice of the Void (Moving it to sideboard)
- 4 Darksteel Citadel (Wasteland just hits another land, I found this one to be quite 'useless' apart from being an artifact land)
- 1 Steel Hellkite (Great card, but not in every match, also because it has no 'come into play effect', so I'm moving it to sideboard)
- 1 Mindslaver (Too slow for this setup I think, and also no come into play effect (unless 4 extra mana is available))
- 1 Mountain (Nobody is playing Path, only Swords and no Ghostwaste present)


I have thought about the instability of the deck and decided to add cards to fix this problem:
+ 2 Sensei's Divining Top
+ 2 Enlightened Tutor

To fix color:
+ 4 Ancient Den
+ 2 Plateau

Also:
+ 1 Blood Moon (sided this in quite often, can be searched with enlightened tutor as well)


The extra color came without a 'cost' in my sense, since I wanted to swap the citadels for another artifact land anyway and the mountain isn't needed.
Next to that I wanted one extra mana source anyway, maybe Mox Opal would even be better but I currently don't own this one. Opal would also give the artifact count +1.


The sideboard will also undergo some changes (I can add white cards in here now too):

- 1 Blood Moon (to main)
- 1 Tormod's Crypt
- 1 Masticore (card disadvantage is killing)
- 1 Ensnaring Bridge (S & T worked different than I thought)
- 1 Witchbane Orb (Insufficient protection)
- 1 Whipflare (Insufficient)


+ 3 Chalice of the Void (from main)
+ 1 Steel Hellkite (from main)
+ 1 Ghostly Prison (goblins, elves, dredge, etc.)
+ 1 Ethersworn Canonist (elves, storm, etc.)


I haven't had time to test yet, but I think this second small color splash will be worth it, since Enlightened Tutor is basically a Vampiric Tutor in this deck and I love the fact that it can search for silver bullets, just like Forgemaster can.
Master Transmuter has also been in my mind but I think it will be too slow for this setup.

If anyone has advice for me, it would be more than welcome! Also on different color splashes, since I found some room for this in the list.

[Alex Holland]

Quiz question: against what deck chalice isnt good?

Answer mud, dragonstompy. Dragon stompy should be easy anyway. Mud is rare to encounter. So play 4. Ur so wrong about it. Add 4 revoker. Good card.

[Barsoom]

I side Chalice of the Void out vs Dragon Stompy, MUD, Merfolk, Stax and Tezzerator.

[astormbrewing]

I side Chalice of the Void out vs Dragon Stompy, MUD, Merfolk, Stax and Tezzerator.

And these decks aren't tremendously popular. A lot of blue based decks will keep land-light hands with Brainstorms to smooth their draws, and a T1 Chalice on 1 can just shut them down completely.

[Alex Holland]

Why side chalice out against merfolk??? Out of my head i have seen these cards in merfolk:

1 mana: cursecatcher, swordstoplowshares, aether vial, spell pierce
2 mana: lord of atlantis, phantasmal image, jitte, standstill, daze, master of the pearl trident, silvergill adept

etc.. so chalice t1 with sol land is a small investment big up against these stinking blue guys!

[CaptainTwiddle]

This list took 7th at SCG Cleveland on 10/06/13 piloted by Stephen Seliskar. There are some things I like about it, but also some questions that I have. I've marked some of the card choices with asterisks and then made my comments below.


CREATURES (22)
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Sundering Titan
4 Wurmcoil Engine*
4 Goblin Welder
SPELLS (18)
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Crucible Of Worlds*
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Mox Diamond*
1 Spine of Ish Sah*
2 Voltaic Key
2 Mox Opal
LAND (20)*
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Bottled Cloister
2 Trinisphere
2 Duplicant
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Steel Hellkite
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Blood Moon
1 Mindslaver


First, I do like the 4 Wurmcoil Engine. A lot of MUD lists have run things like Steel Hellkite or Platinum Emperion in the main alongside 1-3 Wurmcoils. In the end, I think that Wurmcoil is just the card that you'd rather see 90% of the time. I do like Myr Battlesphere against decks with Jace, the Mind Sculptor, but I haven't played with the deck enough to know if it's really essential to have something like that in the maindeck.

Concerning Crucible of Worlds, Mox Diamond, Mox Opal and the land count: I think Crucible in the maindeck is really interesting. I like it more than something like Staff of Domination, as it serves mutliple functions. It gives you the ability to Wasteland lock people, which is a nice upside, but the other thing about it is that this particular build only runs 20 lands, which seems a little low in general and particularly since it's running 2 Mox Diamond, so Crucible allows you to get value from the lands pitched to the Diamond. Mox Opal as more than a singleton and the low land count makes me think that cutting one of each Mox and replacing them with Darksteel Citadel might be a more consistent approach.

The last maindeck card that I question is Spine of Ish Sah. While I love the card for its general fun factor and see that it has applications against Show and Tell decks, I again question if it's worth a maindeck slot. I suppose it's a pretty potent bullet to find with Forgemaster. I think it's just fine as singleton, but it could be Karn Liberated. The thing that I think gives the nod to Spine is the simple fact that it's an artifact, so it has more synergy within the deck.

I don't have too much to say about the sideboard, as that is the area most likely to shift with anticipation of a given metagame, though I think that Faerie Macabre should probably just be Tormod's Crypt, as every non-artifact card you board in potentially weakens Metalworker. I'm also unsure what match up the Mindslaver is for. I could see it being really potent against a storm player, assuming you're actually able to use it in time, but I think I'd be more inclined to run Witchbane Orb instead.

Thoughts? The thing I'm most curious about is the mana base, specifically the low land count and the mix of Moxes.

[Airwave]

Quiz question: against what deck chalice isnt good?

Answer mud, dragonstompy. Dragon stompy should be easy anyway. Mud is rare to encounter. So play 4. Ur so wrong about it. Add 4 revoker. Good card.

In the tournament I played Show & Tell twice, while Chalice has its use against them this only works if you can play it immediately. When they pondered of brainstormed once or twice already its value has worsened. Chalice at three would have been nice but I never came that far.

I also played pox, chalice has almost no use against them.

Stoneblade had some trouble with chalice, which was nice.

I still think Chalice is a very good card, maybe I'll put it back in main, have to do some more testing. But I dislike the fact that it kills sensei, voltaic key, enlightened tutor and welder (sometimes) as card choices, especially as these four all interact very nicely with each other.. in matches where chalice is the absolute winner I can side them in for the 1 cc package.

Revoker is indeed a nice card, but difficult to play as a starting legacy player in main

[Alex Holland]

In the tournament I played Show & Tell twice, while Chalice has its use against them this only works if you can play it immediately. When they pondered of brainstormed once or twice already its value has worsened. Chalice at three would have been nice but I never came that far.

I also played pox, chalice has almost no use against them.

Stoneblade had some trouble with chalice, which was nice.

I still think Chalice is a very good card, maybe I'll put it back in main, have to do some more testing. But I dislike the fact that it kills sensei, voltaic key, enlightened tutor and welder (sometimes) as card choices, especially as these four all interact very nicely with each other.. in matches where chalice is the absolute winner I can side them in for the 1 cc package.

Revoker is indeed a nice card, but difficult to play as a starting legacy player in main

Well game 1 youll keep revoker in hand until you know what to name. Often your opponent will drop a deathrite shaman, a mox diamond or aether vial. Thats value.

I think chalice is good against pox. Discard is horrible for us. Duress, toughtseize, iok and also 1cc u sac a critter card.. If they dont have that they are helpless, only liliana can stop us. Wich is taken care of by revoker. GG.

[Juicy Karaage]

Chalice at 0 stops Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal
Chalice at 1 stops every cantrip in the format(Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, Gitaxian Probe), every efficient spot removal(Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshare, Path to Exile) aside from Abrupt Decay, every utility 1 drop(Deathrite Shaman, Noble Heirarch, Sensei's Divining Top), most rituals(Dark Rit, Rite of Flame), discard spells(Thoughtseize, Inquisition, Duress, Cabal Therapy)
Chalice at 2 stops Tarmo, Stoneforge, Dark Confidant, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, Snapcaster
That's practically more or less 80% of the cards played right now

[Barsoom]

@ Alex Holland

It's my opinion that Chalice of the void is one of the worst card we have against Merfolk, stopping Æther Vial is huge yes but pratically your only opportunity to do it it's turn 1 on the play, after they usually already played Vial or they can Daze your Chalice, then later on the game it's useless; Chalice at 2 it stops almost every creature they play yes but again if they have a Vial it's useless, again it usually come too late, and if you set at 2 it stops our Grim Monolith and Lightning Greaves; i found it useful in this matchup mostly against Pithing Needle, but i usually board it out anyway cause not every Merfolk plays it.
I own both MUD and Merfolk so i tested this match many times, that's what i deducted from my testing.

[Airwave]

Well game 1 youll keep revoker in hand until you know what to name. Often your opponent will drop a deathrite shaman, a mox diamond or aether vial. Thats value.

I think chalice is good against pox. Discard is horrible for us. Duress, toughtseize, iok and also 1cc u sac a critter card.. If they dont have that they are helpless, only liliana can stop us. Wich is taken care of by revoker. GG.

Not playing it beforehand might work although you're somewhat behind then maybe?

Against pox: duress and innocent blood weren't in, but cursed scroll was. I actually did play a revoker on liliana (sided it in second game) but it was anything but GG. He played smallpox and the fun was over

It's absolutely true that chalice blanks a lot, but only if you play it first. Especially against the first drops you really want to win the dice roll to make it work nicely I guess.

Still having trouble with dropping both sensei and enlightened since it will put me back in 'topdeckmode' very often ... hmm difficult..

[Alex Holland]

I think mud needs to be defensive and not offensive.
4 lodestone 4 chalice 4 revoker. Than build ur mana (metalworker, dynamo) to go off with a bang.

Other (combo) decks are more efficient/faster then mud so recklessly going all in is senseless. TutoRing is nice but a waste of time and rescourses. Welder is ok and can fit a chalice package with caverns. But id rather just concentrate on the opposition . Imo :p

[nedleeds]

@ Alex Holland

It's my opinion that Chalice of the void is one of the worst card we have against Merfolk, stopping Æther Vial is huge yes but pratically your only opportunity to do it it's turn 1 on the play, after they usually already played Vial or they can Daze your Chalice, then later on the game it's useless; Chalice at 2 it stops almost every creature they play yes but again if they have a Vial it's useless, again it usually come too late, and if you set at 2 it stops our Grim Monolith and Lightning Greaves; i found it useful in this matchup mostly against Pithing Needle, but i usually board it out anyway cause not every Merfolk plays it.
I own both MUD and Merfolk so i tested this match many times, that's what i deducted from my testing.

Chalice comes out vs. Merfolk absolutely. 100% on the draw. You want Revoker (if he isn't main), if you run Ratchet Bomb it's very good against fish people because they cluster around 2. Better than hoping for Chalice on 2. Against merfolk you have to consider keeping 3-4 land hands also, you need the mana to push through soft counters and fight their wastelands.

A good merfolk player will likely board out his Cursecatchers and maybe spell pierce if he runs it for bounce and dismembers. Not sure what other hate merfolks decks have these days, I've played Merfolk a dozen or so times with MUD over the past 3-5 years and can't remember losing. Last 2 times I remember distinctly that Cavern was the obvious fisting you'd think it to be in the matchup.

Edit: @Swamp thing

I agree also. Make the environment inhospitable to the other deck. Then lay your threat. Then win quick before the other deck can scramble out of the hole. That's why I think Thran Dynamo and Key are hot fucking garbage. I want more lock pieces than mana rocks, especially non netting ones like Dynamo and cards that don't do anything alone and synergize poorly with Chalice @ 1 (the best defensive card in legacy from a workers perspective).

Get out of here with Enlightened Tutor and Top.

[(nameless one)]

What bothers me is why isn't [card]Winter Orb[/card] tested in tandem with Chalice and even with Revokers?

Decks that run on under two lands get stopped by Chalice. Anything that's weak on Chalice gets really disrupted with the Orb. Any midrange deck in between get caught by a Revoker naming Deathrite Shaman.

With the most recent SCG 7th place list, we can get the example that Crucible on the main along with Diamonds work as the manabase. You rarely have your lands for more than two turns because they either destroy themselves or get destroyed with opposing Wastelands.

Why not build a deck that creates a near to complete hard lock then uses Forgemaster to fetch either a Wurmcoil or Blightsteel for the win.

If the mentioned list ran Winter Orb and Tangle Wire, I'm sure he would have beaten Goblins with ease.

[Airwave]

I think mud needs to be defensive and not offensive.
4 lodestone 4 chalice 4 revoker. Than build ur mana (metalworker, dynamo) to go off with a bang.

Other (combo) decks are more efficient/faster then mud so recklessly going all in is senseless. TutoRing is nice but a waste of time and rescourses. Welder is ok and can fit a chalice package with caverns. But id rather just concentrate on the opposition . Imo :p

You might be right, but then the deck might change altogether to the stax variant or something in between I guess. Defensive play will give more time and therefore less screw ups maybe.

[Alex Holland]

Someone tried credit voucher???

Seems sweet late game!

[(nameless one)]

Someone tried credit voucher???

Seems sweet late game!

Credit Voucher doesn't really do anything if you're hellbent.

Conch Horn on the other hand does gains you a card. It also sets up Reforge the Soul if you want a Memory Jar effect.

[Alex Holland]

Nah thats a 2 card investement while muds too crowdee already. I forgot about scroll rack, (2) t (1)exile x cards in hand, draw x put exiled x on library. I have 2 side now, against heavy counter i playvmy scarecrones and otherwise i side in my 2 scrolls. Worked good last night with finding wincons. One game i played 3 karns nuking all his lands