I think the original Big Red it's enough randomic; your version it's all based to "top-deck". Flip a coin maybe win; also no Emmy IMHO it's not a best solution
Originally Posted by claudip
Focus on the main problems of this deck:
1. VS high discarding deck --> chalice at 1 is an answer but not enough, any ideas?
2. VS Ensnaring Bridge --> piromacy and chaos warp are good solution, but we do not have tutor or cantrip; sometimes is difficult to find it
And what about the main questions obout how to play this deck
1. Crystal Ball / Sensei+fetch or not?
2. Trinisphere main or side?
3. Against Blue siding in pyro/reb you side out chalice?
4. Any artifact removal in side?
5. Any grave hate in side?
I auto-answer with my opinion.
My only (not so good) idea is splashing with white
i hope 2x piromacy and 2x chaos warp are enough
i have good resoults without cantrips
3x side
no
at the moment no
no
1. VS high discarding deck --> chalice at 1 is an answer but not enough, any ideas?
On the draw getting thoughtseized then Hymned, suuuucks. Chalice does nothing against this line. It's only really good at fighting discard on the play or in a long game. Leyline of sanctity is the superstar here. Depending on your meta, 4 can fit into the sideboard. If you wanna splash so you can cast them a few fetches and plateaus won't kill your mana base.
2. VS Ensnaring Bridge --> piromacy and chaos warp are good solution, but we do not have tutor or cantrip; sometimes is difficult to find it
Pyromancy and Warp have to be enough. There just aren't enough spaces in the deck to fight a card that sees such little play. (I may be wrong on the amount of play it sees but I've run into is VERY rarely)
And what about the main questions obout how to play this deck
1. Crystal Ball / Sensei+fetch or not?
Sensei's and fetch are out of you're using a full set of chalices. however sensei's is better than ball in every way possible. Ball kinda sucks, but until we find something better I'm using it as a 1 of for filtering. Someone mentioned Magma jet, may be an option since it at least kills stuff too.
2. Trinisphere main or side?
Depends on your meta. I like 1 main and the other 3 board. One is hardly ever terrible, but 2 in game 1 are usually worthless.
3. Against Blue siding in pyro/reb you side out chalice?
This is the question I've been trying to find an answer to through testing. Currently I'm siding out 3 chalices if I bring in blast. If I draw the one left, I make sure to set it on something other than 1. Depends what they're playing. Stopping cantrips is sweet, but stopping game winning cards is more important.
4. Any artifact removal in side?
No. We pretty much walk over artifact decks. Sometimes we lose to equipment but in those games an artifact destruction spell wouldn't usually turn the tide anyways. The chaos warp is a catch all. If you expect a heavy artifact meta, shattering spree and shatterstorm both fit in this deck real well and do massive work.
5. Any grave hate in side?
Yes...sort of. I play 1 grafdiggers cage and 1 tormods crypt. I may cut the crypt if I end up with 2 maindeck karakas. Reanimator is our toughest matchup. You can either pack your board with grave hate since it's a hard match to win, or you can hope to dodge it since deathrite is keeping it in check. Personally I like cage since it doubles against GSZ/Natural Order, but they don't do much in multiples so I like to vary my options.
What's your current full side? In my meta i find essential 4xpyroclasm against: Thalia, Gaddock, Delver, Verdillion, P. Revoker, etc...
And the other big question is.. what is your current mana base? I currently use:
7xmontain
3xcity
4xtomb
4xSandstone Needle
+
4xSiman
3xPetal
4xSong
and i find some difficult to have a solid "red mana production"; i'm just unlucky?
In a creature heavy meta, pyroclasm is quite good. Thats really titan's expertise though. None of those creatures actually kill us before we hit 6 mana. As for approaching the topic....Thalia isn't really a concern. I use karakas to deal with Gaddock (works for thalia too), Delver IS a clock, especially with ancient tomb, but on the play we have chalice and on the draw with have REB. Clique's ability is worse than it's body if you don't stop the ability by REBing it, they've already gotten enough value out. Revoker Shmevoker, thats what through the breach is for.
2 Stronghold Gambit
1 Blood Moon
2 Pyroclasm
3 Trinisphere
1 Defense Grid
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 grafdiggers cage
1 tormods crypt
1 super secret tech (this is my "try something new" slot)
I'm still not sold on the stronghold Gambits. Thats where Chaos Warp usually is. If I see enough black decks in the room I'll cut the gambits, a moon and a super secret tech for 4 leyline of sanctity.
I use the same, less one petal, less one city plus 2 karakas.
Yes, you are just unlucky. There are games where you get stuck on red sources, especially when sandstone gets wasted. It's something you have to consider when keeping your hand or not. 7 mountian, 4 guide, 3 petal (2 in my case) gives you 14 chances to hit a red source, thats just under 1/4? (math is hard). Which in legacy, means there are games where you might not draw a red source, but they're rare. Just be aware sandstone can get wasted, and all you need is one red source to start a seething song, and don't burn all your spirit guides casting trinisphere.
Just wanted to mention this deck got some discussion during the recent SCG Legacy tournament yesterday.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lh0sNQk-Ano
What are everyone's feelings on crystal ball. I've been trying it out and am not really sold. I think magma jet may be my next try.
i've been surprisingly happy with it. it's been pulling it's weight everytime i have it on the board.
Tested list having 2 Crystal Balls MD - very happy. Helps to dig for enabler or fatty.
Usually 1 Emrakul is not enough to win, so you have to dig for a finisher as fast as you can, not letting your opponent to recover
I played two tournaments in these weeks which, unfortunately, didn't go very well.
The lists that I used differs a little in the main deck but quite a bit in the side. Here's the recaps:
FIRST TOURNAMENT
Round 1 vs RUG Control (1-2)
G1 I win with a fast hand and a chalice
G2 and G3 I lose to his infinite counters and jace
Side: +defense grid, -chalice (I should have sided out song)
Round 2 vs Maverick with vials (2-0)
I win both games with wurm and blood moon
Side: +pyroclasm, + chaos warp, -chalice
Round 3 vs D&T (1-2)
G1 I lose to thalia and an army of crusaders while I keep on drawing mana sources
G2 I sneak a wurm on T1
G3 I draw about 12 mana source in 7 rounds (I started with an hand of lands, song, simian and sneak attack and draw only onther lands and simian)
Side: +pyroclasm, + chaos warp, -chalice
Round 4 vs Jund (2-0)
G1 I won after he self inflicted several damage with fetches and thoughtseizes; don't remember how though
G2 I won with heretic's punishment having only song and simian in hand: in this case pyromancy would have done nothing while HP flipped a sneak and an Emmy for the win
Side: +3 pyroclasm, -1 chalice, -2 crystal balls
Finish 2-2 :/
SECOND TOURNAMENT
Round 1 vs MonoBlack (0-2)
I keep an hand with SA, fatty, tomb, karakas, simian and something else. He wins the die roll and on T2 hymns away simian and karakas. I don't draw any other red source before he takes my SA away
I keep an hand with a T2 titan but on his turn he kozilek away my song. Titan comes down on T3 anyway but then he plays liliana and with some other discard locks me on 4 mana and 0 cards in hand (with a pithing needle on my sneak attack). I get ultimated 4 times...
Side: -blood moon, +trinisphere, +chaos warp (I'm not really prepared for this matchup...)
Round 2 vs D&T (1-2)
G1 I play a T1 blood moon and sneak a wurm a couple of turn after, even under a T2 Thalia
G2 I flood
G3 I flood (see the trend here?)
Side: +pyroclasm, -song, -crystal ball
Round 3 vs Maverick (2-0)
G1 I TtB a wurm on turn 3 with double sol land
G2 I sneak a T1 wurm because my opponent taps out to play Mom
Side: +pyroclasm, -crystal ball, blood moon, punishment
Round 4 vs Sligh Affinity (2-1)
G1 he puts some pressure but I kill him with heretic's punishment flipping emrakul and wurm
Side: -chalice, - blood moon, + trinisphere, +pyroclasm, +1 chaos warp
G2 he plays two pithing needles naming punishment and sneak attack while I fail to find a titan or a TtB
Side: back the chalices, out crystal ball, chaos warp, punishment (I noticed that he names always that first with needle) and karakas
G3 I play a chalice@1 to stop his needles (he had one in hand) and on turn 3 I play sneak into griselbrand, emrakul and wurm
Round 5 vs Imperial Painter
G1 he has the nuts: T1 tomb into painter, T2 land, grindstone, simian activate. However he doesn't know I have emrakul in the deck ;) I play a chalice@1 for his blasts that buys me all the time to find TtB and a wurm
G2 he plays a T2 painter and starts a slow beating while I control the game with chalice and pyroclasm after he imperial for jaya. I find a titan that clears his board of simian, imperial, revoker and painter in two turns and win.
Side: -blood moon, - karakas, +pyroclasm, +chaos warp (for his ensaring bridges)
Finish 3-2 :/
CONCLUSION
I don't know if it's a coincidence, but apart for heavy control deck I've only lost against mono color decks that invalidates blood moon. I think it's a coincidence however because against D&T I tested some games (about ten) and only lost once when he played mom->thalia->crusader->port aka fast clock, disruption and protection. However I know now that against Thalia is better to side out the songs because they will net only 1 mana which is not very good.
Still working on my side plans but now they feel better overall and, most of all, the deck is FUN!
Ignorance is strength
Henry, I think know what you mean: several time I invested volatile resources (simian, needles) to cast or activate the ball which leaves me with a bad taste in mouth. However the effect can buy you games given time.
For now I play only one but since I upped my permanent mana sources (you know what I mean) I can see myself going back to 2, although I don't know what I would take out.
I don't like a one shot scry 2 card which doesn't advance our game plan though.
Ignorance is strength
I started to test with Magma jet ( x2 or 3), and it seems very efficient.
- It gives some air against all annoying creatures : Thalia, early delver, gaddock, phyrexian revoker, stoneforge, deathrite shaman for blood moon effect...
- And it scryes 2..
what you cut off for 2-3 magma?
I would say, I cut the Griselbrand..
My current list:
// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [EX] City of Traitors
11 [8E] Mountain (2)
2 [MM] Sandstone Needle
// Creatures
4 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [RTR] Worldspine Wurm
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
2 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
3 [M12] Inferno Titan
// Spells
4 [US] Sneak Attack
4 [CHK] Through the Breach
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [8E] Blood Moon
3 [FNM] Magma Jet
1 [V09] Lotus Petal
Cutting Griselbrand ??I don't know if it's crazy or really ingenious..
Well, from my tests and tournaments, Griselbrand is not really usefull...
I explain, If you're able to cast a sneak ou TTB, you win. That's it. You'll hardly need to activate Grisel to win.. Go for wurm or emrakul and you win..
And Griselbrand will not help you to drop sneak.. If you're able to drop Griselbrand, that's mean you've already won..
I'm not sure I agree with that analysis. I wouldn't be comfortable with only playing 8 fatties that wins the game. Yes, if you drop a Sneak or cast TTB, it's great, BUT you need the fatty and 8 is, in my opinion, to low a number. Emmy and Wurm are the best finishers, I agree with you on that on, BUT Griselbrand is great to find the other 2 fatties (Emmy and Wurm) and are basisly the 9-11(12) Emmy or Wurm. Only flaw with Griselbrand is that he's only the best with Sneak Attack, since with TTB you would need to draw fatties, fast mana AND a Sneak or TTB to win the same turn.
With TTB I want to see Wurm or Emmy, not Griselbrand, with Sneak I just want to see a fatty.
/PollePotDK
Since yal are contemplating dropping griselbrand ( which I don't agree with one bit) would blightsteel possibly be better? Add 3 in the Gris spot and rely on Emmy or Titan to board wipe n swing with the blight? I don't c what else would b worth putting in grissys spot. Ive literally had to many games were he drew me into my win.
Blightsteel colossus is bad... It's only really good agains controle, to be sure the opponent will die directly.
More feedback to come on this deck, as I'll play it at the BOM next week, and other tournaments the days before.
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