You are heading up the same alley as I am. Streamlined list with snappys, cliques and venser with lots of flashbackable targets (well atleast pierce and snare and the sideboard a bit more). Pyroclasms are still there but one of the explosives has to go, just not as good when you can have snappytargets instead. It seems correct to run 2 wear//tear instead of the oneoff with all the targets in the new and upcoming meta. I have a double legacy tournament (both saturday and sunday) this week to evaluate but I feel pretty happy with the list I am working on.Originally Posted by Dzra
Unexpectedly Absent was spoiled and i am quite exited about it for the UW-miracle deck. that deck already has the mana-base to pay WW and this card solves some of the main issues this deck has in my opinion. it can kill a Lili 2.0 or a batterskull. sure the d-shpere can do the same and pitches to Fow but it dies to abrupt decay.
what do you think? could it replace the sphere in the non-enchantment heavy builds? maybe 1 or 2 MD?
i think i will try out at least 1 MD and maybe another in the SB
I think we will all try this card. It can be a solution for Liliana which is the only problematic card for us. Sometimes we struggle aginst Sylvan Library, Chalice of the Void and then some sideboard cards like Choke, Chains of Mephistofeles...
Batterskull is quite weak against us imho. I often let mystic live and take one two hits and Terminus then. They usually can not recover.
What did I miss?
BTW, I wonder if Joe will post his finding at SCG Seattle, though he most likely did not match his expectation. Perhaps the meta has shifted?
Unexpectedly Absent is almost certainly worth looking at (another reason why I'm leaning Snapcaster lately). I really hate cutting ORing for it though because of Show and Tell. Perhaps it'll replace Wear // Tear or even the fourth Swords to Plowshares in some lists? ... ORing/DSphere will probably get the axe, but there's no way I'm cutting Vensers.
I'm a little hesitant to post my exact list online with the GP coming up, but maybe I'm just being paranoid. ;p There's nothing too fancy about it. I got my Counterbalance curve to a pretty nice spot I think (1cmc - 14, 2cmc - 7, 3cmc - 5, 4cmc - 5, 5cmc - 3, 6cmc - 3). I'm running a small Enlightened Tutor package in the board for 2 RIPs, 1 DSphere, 1 Ethersworn, and 1 Moat. I'm unsure if DSphere is correct over ORing and I'm unsure if either will be correct over Unexpectedly Absent.
you're hesitant but i'm not.
3 cmc - Clique, Clique, Clique, Entreat, Entreat
4 cmc - Jace, Jace, Jace, Verdict, Moat/Elspeth
5 cmc - Fow, Fow, Fow
6 cmc - Terminus, Terminus, Terminus
But then again, most builds have that configuration anyway. I don't see the reasoning for DSphere other than FoW pitching, even that reasoning is a bit weak. DSphere is so bad against Sneak-n-Show and Imperial Painter, that reasoning to Not run it is so much stronger than running it for pitching.
Haha fair enough. I mainly just don't like having my actual list sitting in the thread. If anyone wants to discuss specifics, they can always message me.
Joe and I played during the tournament, which was something I both wanted and didn't.
Awesome games, Joe.
-Matt
Hello everyone, been a while since I've played Miracles. I've been playing RUG and BUG recently with good success, but I'm feeling the meta shift a bit to combat BUG's card advantage strategy. Because of this, I'm thinking that Miracles might be a good deck to come back to. I stopped playing it before Rest in Peace was printed, so I don't have much experience with RIP/Helm combo.
Here's my current take on the deck without having any experience playing it. I'm not really happy with how the sideboard looks. It feels a bit all-over-the-place, and I'd like it to be more focused. This is probably because I don't know what the bad match-ups are.
Any suggestions or criticism are very welcome, please help me get this deck ready for GP DC!
Lands
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
1 Karakas
1 Dust Bowl
Creatures
1 Vendilion Clique
Spells
Control
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
1 Misdirection
Card Advantage
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
Removal
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
Tutor Package
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Blood Moon
2 Rest in Peace
Win Condition
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Entreat the Angels
Sideboard
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Blood Moon
1 Counterbalance
1 Detention Sphere
1 Rest in Peace
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Wear // Tear
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Pyroclasm
1 Supreme Verdict
My criticism is your sentence: Here's my current take on the deck without having any experience playing it.
Miracle is Not a deck you sleeve up 1 month prior to a big tournament and expect to do well with it. It takes a long time to fully understand the intricate interaction against various decks. Too see interactions against rare match-up, for example you have not seen omni-tell in your area or online, I would recommend watching Oarsman's video stream clips to understand his game plan, how he trades and get himself into the board state where he can win.
The deck's always ready, are you?
RIP/Helm plays more or less like the non-RIP version. You are still just trying to survive until you kill them with Helm or Entreat. I'd recommend switching the fourth FoW that is MD with the 4th Counterbalance in the SB. I've found Blood Moon to be disappointing more often than not, so I wouldn't recommend running two (perhaps not even one). Dust Bowl doesn't really do anything for us since our lands are usually more important than theirs (you can switch this for a Mystic Gate or just more Islands). Even in the RIP build, I liked having 2-3 flash creatures to help deal with planeswalkers and other random crap. Double Clique or Clique/Venser are both good options. EE and Pithing Needle have both been somewhat disappointing and mostly unnecessary.
Basically, the RiP/Helm version cuts an entreat for a Helm, and attempts to use the lack of a Graveyard more. Aside from that you still assemble Counter Top, you kill some guys, counter some Spells, and draw some cards.
Also I love Blood Moon, but 2 is pointless. If they deal with it then you've bought yourself enough time and forced an answer from them to help your Helm kill them.
EDIT: Or they just die because they can't cast Spells.
The conspiracy goes deeper than you might think.Can I pay you for not posting in this thread?
I'd definitely play a second entreat somewhere in the main, you look to be a bit short on wincons to me. I don't really like verdict that much, and would still recommend an Energy Field for RiP builds.
Thanks for the comments everyone :)
I'm a pretty smart cookie, and I've been watching the deck play enough to keep up with it. That said, I played the non-RIP version for a good year, so I've seen most match-ups in multiple with it. I was referring to having little experience with the RIP/Helm.
I agree, the EE/Needle were proving lackluster in testing. Any suggestions on what to up in the board? I could put another Clique there, if not in the main. Speaking of, what would you suggest pulling from the main - the Blood Moon?
So I'm thinking just the one in the board then to side in for BUG and RUG match-up (damn and I just picked up two from The Dark!)
I've always found Energy Field to be clunky. It's one of the reasons I haven't come back to the deck until now. I don't like the idea of staring at a wasteland across the board and realizing that I can't play my trump card....
I would say if you aren't playing Snapcasters and you are playing RIP, play 3 RIP or 1. Not 2. One as a tutor-target for relevant matchups and don't play the E. Field, or play 3 RIP and the E. Field is the Tutor target in the scenario, as you will almost always hit one before the E. Field. I tried Snapcaster, and at least currently, it's not my cup of tea, so to speak (I can see why a lot of people like it though). I play 3/1 Rip/Field, as well as Helm as a singleton. I like it. Against fair decks, I get control within the first 4-5 turns, and then I win with Helm. No grindy 20 minute games.
What does the creature base look like in these creature-heavy lists?
-ABC
Lies. I stabilized by assembling EF or RiP using a Tutor. Then I dig like mad, using Top and fetch, even Jace, spent the next 20 turns, looking for Helm or an Entreat. Nothing, Nothing, Nothing. Could have won faster with Clique Beatdown.
If you believe DnT is a fair deck, then you would definitely enjoy Flickerwhisp or Mangara Vialing in, taking out your RiP, then Wasteland your non-basic, oops your only EF is gone. You're dissing fair decks as if Merfolks don't exist. By your definition, do decks running Abrupt Decay count as fair decks? In all likelihood, Shardless has better chance of gaining control of you faster than you can Rip-anything.
I've seen many lists running Wear // Tear in the sideboard; however, I'm having some trouble understanding exactly why this card would be preferable to oblivion ring. First off, based on what's currently being played I think that you will almost never get a 2-for-1 with wear//tear (except for against Imperial Painter), so I think it's safe to ignore this aspect of wear//tear for the most part. Now, oblivion ring can be used against anything wear//tear can be used against, so we'd want oblivion ring whenever we'd want wear//tear as well.
I'd like to consider the downsides (that I notice) when using oblivion ring compared to wear//tear as an answer to artifacts and enchantments. These are: higher mana cost, the fact that your opponent could potentially get their card back, and lack of instant speed. While certainly issues, all of these seem like potentially small drawbacks most of the time. I think against decks wear/tear is best against, you'll probably leave in enough other permanants (balance, RIP, Clique), to where those decks would already have plenty of targets. To me, the fact they can destroy Oring is probably the largest argument to not run it. The mana cost could be relevant occasionally, although most decks you want artifact and/or enchantment hate don't seem to be particularly fast, so you should have the time to play a card which is slightly slower. Instant speed is definitely useful, with the most significant application at trying to get a Batterskull or leaving countermagic mana open, but I think more often than not you'll be okay to tap three mana for an oblivion ring in one turn.
Now the upsides (in my opinion) for oblivion ring are increased flexibility (in terms of what permanent you need to answer), incredible usefulness against a show and tell, and additional ways to answer planeswalkers. To me, it seems like all three of these reasons will, in general, be a much stronger reason to choose oblivion ring over wear//tear. I think very few decks are running must-answer artifacts and/or enchantments where you're very concerned with the downsides that I mentioned above.
Now, I haven't used wear//tear at all, and I could be completely downplaying the negatives (or missing some huge ones entiredly), but it seems that oblivion ring's flexibility and usefulness in more matchups outweighs the relative benefits wear//tear gets, based on how narrow it is. If somebody could help me understand why wear//tear would be preferable to Oblivion Ring currently, I would much appreciate it.
EDIT: Pretty sure creature heavy lists should have 4 Baleful Strix :P
The creature base is different from deck to deck. What you want to play depends on your playstyle and the meta, as alwaysThe most seen creature packages for me are these:
-3 Vendilion Clique/ 1 Venser
-3 Snapcaster Mage/ 2 Vendilion Clique
-2 Snapcaster Mage/ 2 Vendilion Clique
The latter is what I played and like for a long time. Now I'm testing a straight UW (non RiP) list with only one Vendilion Clique.
@ Wear//Tear: I consider this a very flexible and good sideboard card in UWr lists. It's much faster than O-Ring, killing Choke, Library... for just one mana. Easily flahbackable with Snapcaster. As you mentioned sometimes a two for one is possible, against Maverick this happens relatively often for example. O-Ring dies to Decay, which can be very problematic, as you might handle important permanents (Choke, Sneak Attack, Library), you might tap out, and then they might Decay/ Wear//Tear it , which will cause you many Problems, especially if you feel save and they destroy O-Ring eot.
Against combo or generally against MU's were locking them out with CB is important, Wear//Tear is the best card to float on top, as it will counter spells with CC1 AND CC2.
Last edited by zerzab11; 10-22-2013 at 03:55 PM. Reason: Wear//Tear
Simply my experiences vs. yours. Lies might be a bit of a stretch. You may be right, but what I posted was just my experience-based conjecture. I'm not saying I win all the time, I'm saying when my deck lines up with using RIP, my normal line of play will be as I posted above, and often, it succeeds.
-ABC
EDIT: Afaik floating Wear//Tear won't counter 1 or 2 cmc cards, but rather 3cmc. You pick the card half you are playing, or you fuze, but if it's not on the stack, it's cmc is in fact 3.
Having an instant is important vs certain cards, including Choke and Batterskull, which is why I was running disenchant over extra O-Rings in the board before Wear // Tear. There's also a ton of abrupt decay running around where I'm at, so having an answer that doesn't get answered by decay is a huge upside. I certainly don't agree that I'm leaving in other targets in those matchups, as Counterbalance comes out vs almost every decay deck anyways, leaving just RiP and friends as other targets. Show and tell matchups are covered by other cards in the board, and I certainly don't feel like I need the extra help from O-Rings, and Wear // Tear has huge upside being floated with counterbalance in other matchups.
My experience is certainly closer to yours, and I've never had an issue closing games.
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