[Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

[psu42]

Hi, kind of new to the deck. I've seen some lists that eschew all Forces in the main and run them solely in the side. Do you do this for a local meta, or all you comfortable at a larger venue like this as well; ie scg open. Also, is 2 Strix enough main board? It seems pretty standard anymore.

[thefreakaccident]

I would really like to play 2x standstill in here. Bump goyf a bit, and have a second way to combo off of agent. Maybe stop with the wastelands and go for Mishra's factory? Could be cool. I don't know if anyone has ever played hymm with standstill in the same deck. It might be really bad though.

[Tombstalker]

thefreakaccident
I would really like to play 2x standstill in here.

Hey man thats a really cool idea as a cascade target. The only problem I see is there are currently quite a few archtypes that revolve around aether vial atm.

[Pherion]

I would really like to play 2x standstill in here. Bump goyf a bit, and have a second way to combo off of agent. Maybe stop with the wastelands and go for Mishra's factory? Could be cool. I don't know if anyone has ever played hymm with standstill in the same deck. It might be really bad though.

The problem with Standstill is that you have to have a superior board state. BUG can sometimes have trouble with this early on, and also likes to slam an Agent turn 3 blindly. Imagine cascading on turn three against goblins and hitting Standstill while they have 4-5 goblins out. You're going to have to break it, because even if they don't have an Aether Vial they won't break it until they run out of goblins to throw at your 2/2.

On another note, there are so many decks where you want to flip removal from your Agent, and hitting a Standstill would just be bad.

This is not to say it's not worth testing. I just don't see it generating the kind of board state we are looking for.

[somethingdotdotdot]

So what do you guys think about the new cards in the commander set? In particular, do you see true-name nemesis having a slot in the md and/or toxic deluge as a catch-all sweeper in the board?

[Grand Superior]

So what do you guys think about the new cards in the commander set? In particular, do you see true-name nemesis having a slot in the md and/or toxic deluge as a catch-all sweeper in the board?

I'm not sure if True-Name Nemesis does anything that our deck doesn't already have covered. We already have our impacting three-drop in Shardless Agent (and in some cases Liliana of the Veil and even Maelstrom Pulse), clock+defensive creature in Tarmogoyf, and control and planeswalker-assassin in Creeping Tar Pit. It also requires , which subtly strains the mana a bit more because this deck is really a deck with as a support colour.

I agree with wcm8 on the SCD discussion thread. I think the card is great in Team America because it has a much greater impact on that deck and fills more roles (essentially replaces Tombstalker). If it shifts to a more True-Name Nemesis-centered metagame, then I can see changing the deck around to fit it. In my opinion, True-Name Nemesis isn't something that just fits right into the Shardless BUG deck - it requires that the deck be changed up to accommodate it.

Toxic Deluge is another card that I think fits better in the tempo BUG decks, but it can find space in sideboards. It might be a reason not to run Whipflare in the sideboard, but then I have no experience with Shardless BUG with the red splash so I can't comment on that.

[Dragonslayer_90]

As a card, I like Toxic Deluge a lot. Going to test 1 or 2 in my sb when I get the time. I like how it gives me a little more versatility than Infest, the card it may end up replacing in my sb.

Anyways, so one of my buddies who is going to GP DC with me is trying to learn how to play Shardless BUG before then. He played against an Elves player in the swiss at my LGS yesterday. After the match we talked about his sb'ing, which went like the following: -3 Jace, -3 Force of Will, +2 Pernicious Deed, +2 Golgari Charm, +2 Disfigure. I didn't necessarily say he was wrong for sb'ing like that, but I'm not sure about taking out Force of Will against Elves. This is a MU I'm still trying to figure out. Thoughts? What are your plans when you get paired against Elves? What do you side in and out?

[Sturtzilla]

As a card, I like Toxic Deluge a lot. Going to test 1 or 2 in my sb when I get the time. I like how it gives me a little more versatility than Infest, the card it may end up replacing in my sb.

I am intrigued by this as well. The card would make for a solid and more easily castable sweeper for match ups like Goblins, Merfolk, Affinity, and Elves. I am sure there are other applications as well. Seems like this could be a great sideboard card.

Anyways, so one of my buddies who is going to GP DC with me is trying to learn how to play Shardless BUG before then. He played against an Elves player in the swiss at my LGS yesterday. After the match we talked about his sb'ing, which went like the following: -3 Jace, -3 Force of Will, +2 Pernicious Deed, +2 Golgari Charm, +2 Disfigure. I didn't necessarily say he was wrong for sb'ing like that, but I'm not sure about taking out Force of Will against Elves. This is a MU I'm still trying to figure out. Thoughts? What are your plans when you get paired against Elves? What do you side in and out?

I am not sure that taking out the Force of Will is correct. I assume that his opponent was playing combo elves. If that is the case, you really need to make sure that they do not resolve a Glimpse of Nature. If you can either Thoughtseize or Force the Glimpses they are playing worse creatures than we are which should allow for your Deathrites and Goyfs to take over the game. I think the exact sideboarding plan depends if you are on the play and how you mean to interact. Thoughtseize and FoW are both really awesome. Hymn isn't bad but isn't the greatest. It is a nice two for one which cuts down on their resources but it is slow by comparison to FoW being able to counter Glimpse on the draw or Thoughtseize (possibly with FoW back up) on the play. Those are my thoughts. I would probably Leave the FoW in and take out 2 Hymn and maybe an Agent or Visions.

[kingtk3]

You need FoW for Natural Order most of all: with your discard and the fact that he plays many low CC cards, is plausible that opponent will remain with few cards in hand soon, which is a situation where glimpse can fizzle (unless he chains into the right creatures like a champ).

However a topdecked Natural Order can end the game even with only three creatures in play.

I would surely side out visions and some number of shardless before FoW.

[Water_Wizard]

Against Elves, Jace needs to come out (I think that we all agree on this).

Hymn should definitely come out on the draw. It's questionable on the play, as it is a dead draw later in the game.

Force is good. However, watch your blue count. If you cut Jace, Visions, and Shardless, then you are only running a handful of blue cards to pitch to Force.

I would also consider cutting Creeping Tar Pit. Cutting a few Wasteland is also an option, as Elves usually has mega-mana and doesn't attack ours.

[somethingdotdotdot]

If you're really afraid of the elves matchup, just put 3 grafdigger's cages in the board. Its a card that they NEED to answer to go off and it shuts off one of their main ways to find removal for it as well (gsz). I've found cage+sweeper effect (whipflare in my case) is really quite good at shutting down their game plan.

[DragoFireheart]

Toxic Delgue is exactly what this deck wanted. I love it, love it, love it. It even answers the infamous True-Name Nemesis!

[th3 w1z4rd]

If you're really afraid of the elves matchup, just put 3 grafdigger's cages in the board. Its a card that they NEED to answer to go off and it shuts off one of their main ways to find removal for it as well (gsz). I've found cage+sweeper effect (whipflare in my case) is really quite good at shutting down their game plan.

Elves doesn't need to answer Cage. They just play Glimpse and Cage is useless.

[Zirath]

Elves doesn't need to answer Cage. They just play Glimpse and Cage is useless.

They don't need to but it severely limits their lines.

[Julian23]

As an Elves player, Cage is a real pain in the ass. Much more than most other non-sweeper hate card.

[Goosen]

What do you guys think about the UWR Delver match up? I am interested to hear your views.

[wcm8]

Everyone needs to start playing Leyjay's version of the deck (minor red splash, 4 Liliana of the Veil maindeck, no discard except 1cmc targeted in the sideboard, Whipflare, etc.). I was able to split for 1st/2nd at a GPT this past weekend with it.

Here's a link to the most recent version: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/205957

Hymn just isn't the right card for this deck. Hymn is a better card in a faster, more aggressive deck (e.g. Team America). Yes, there are the occasional turn 2 Hymn blowouts, but I think with how durdly BUG Cascade is, you don't want too many cards that have such a low impact late game. Force of Will on the other hand is nice, because you need *some* counter spells, and you recoup the disadvantage eventually via Vision, Cascade, and Jace.

I could see 1-2 TNN making it into this deck, perhaps cutting a Goyf or Strix or two. It'd be nice to have the insurance against control and midrange, since aside from Goyf, our creatures are pretty pathetic in terms of fighting.

Standstill is bad here, and I think kinda bad in general in Legacy right now.

Toxic Deluge is interesting, but Whipflare still has several advantages over it: less mana, doesn't cost life, won't kill anything on your own board aside from DRS. I don't think fitting a single Badlands into your manabase is that much of a sacrifice.

With Lejay's version, UWR isn't too problematic as long as you can develop your board/ Try to not run yourself into Stifle or Daze needlessly. Kill their threats as they come out, and that way if they try to land a Geist (the only REALLY problematic card), Lili will be able to take care of him. Then you bring in more Whipflare from the sideboard, which kills pretty much every creature in their deck.

The only 'auto-lose' matchups this deck seems to have is UR/Mono-Red Burn, and Painter (Bloodmoon.dec). Otherwise, even combo decks can be handled with the proper sideboarding and a little luck. I was actually able to defeat Reanimator twice this weekend (in the swiss and again in the top 8).

[DragoFireheart]

Four colours? No Hymn?

No.

I really really really dislike FoW in this deck and would rather regulate it to the sideboard.

[Pherion]

Everyone needs to start playing Leyjay's version of the deck (minor red splash, 4 Liliana of the Veil maindeck, no discard except 1cmc targeted in the sideboard, Whipflare, etc.). I was able to split for 1st/2nd at a GPT this past weekend with it.

Here's a link to the most recent version: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/205957

Hymn just isn't the right card for this deck. Hymn is a better card in a faster, more aggressive deck (e.g. Team America). Yes, there are the occasional turn 2 Hymn blowouts, but I think with how durdly BUG Cascade is, you don't want too many cards that have such a low impact late game. Force of Will on the other hand is nice, because you need *some* counter spells, and you recoup the disadvantage eventually via Vision, Cascade, and Jace.

I could see 1-2 TNN making it into this deck, perhaps cutting a Goyf or Strix or two. It'd be nice to have the insurance against control and midrange, since aside from Goyf, our creatures are pretty pathetic in terms of fighting.

Standstill is bad here, and I think kinda bad in general in Legacy right now.

Toxic Deluge is interesting, but Whipflare still has several advantages over it: less mana, doesn't cost life, won't kill anything on your own board aside from DRS. I don't think fitting a single Badlands into your manabase is that much of a sacrifice.

With Lejay's version, UWR isn't too problematic as long as you can develop your board/ Try to not run yourself into Stifle or Daze needlessly. Kill their threats as they come out, and that way if they try to land a Geist (the only REALLY problematic card), Lili will be able to take care of him. Then you bring in more Whipflare from the sideboard, which kills pretty much every creature in their deck.

The only 'auto-lose' matchups this deck seems to have is UR/Mono-Red Burn, and Painter (Bloodmoon.dec). Otherwise, even combo decks can be handled with the proper sideboarding and a little luck. I was actually able to defeat Reanimator twice this weekend (in the swiss and again in the top 8).

This deck looks interesting. A few things:

• I'm not sure I like the Forest in the sideboard. I understand where it would be good to have, but it just feels like a waste of space.
• I also think that at least for GP DC, and other upcoming events, Golgari Charm, Infest, and Toxic Deluge might need to replace Whipflare. I expect that at least URW Delver will be using True-Name Nemesis, and an influx of Merfolk enthusiasts might also show up. Killing him is going to be important, and Whipflare doesn't do it.
• I'm also still of the opinion that Notion Thief is just not a good card. It's most certainly a win-more. You have to leave mana open to cast him to the greatest effect, and if your opponent doesn't brainstorm or something, you're pretty much forced to cast him anyway - otherwise you're just loosing ground by not expanding your board state for a turn.

I'm interesting if this is the direction the deck is going to take in the near future. It's almost a super-friends deck with six planeswalkers!

P.S. ...

Everyone needs to start playing Leyjay's version of the deck

I wouldn't make the assumption that this version of the deck works for everyone. Also, one success is far from sufficient proof that "everyone" should be playing this version of the deck. We need further testing and conversation before we can verify that one build is the best.

[Julian23]

Notion Thief doesn't die to Abrupt Decay. It's the uncontested king of all mirror matches and a great card to drop off Show and Tell. I agree that 4 mana is a bit rough at times but it's got Flash for a reason. You never want to, but having access to a single one is incredibly good.