Hey all, I've been lurking here for a while and finally decided to post to get some feedback on my list. I've been testing seriously for a big Legacy tournament in November and plan to take some version of Pox. I tried GB Pox for a few weeks but it didn't seem to get the job done. It's possible that lack of playskill was also an issue -- I was constantly pulling the wrong cards when Inquisition or Duress.
Anyway, I saw a Pox version splashing Red for Punishing Fire several pages back and wanted to give it a try. Games are much more competitive now, although still working on the playskill thing.
Punishing Pox
1 Nether Spirit
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Cursed Scroll
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
2 Dreadbore
3 Punishing Fire
3 Wasteland
1 Stensia Bloodhall
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Graven Cairns
3 Badlands
2 Lavaclaw Reaches
4 Marsh Flats
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
5 Swamp
Sideboard:
2 Innocent Blood
2 Meltdown
2 Slaughter Games
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Pyroblast
2 Engineered Plague
3 Leyline of the Void
There's a lot of combo and control in my local meta, so the maindeck is a little warped towards that. Jace was a big problem before, now it's a more normal problem with Dreadbore and Bloodhall. Chandra + Top is strong, thinking about trying 3x Chandra to increase the effective card-drawing.
What is the general idea on mainboarding Extirpate or Surgical Extraction? Is it a good idea?
12-post Discord: https://discord.gg/QxYVg3g
Decks that want to play a lot of spells, like Past in flames etc.Thorn? Sphere of resistance is better. Though since you're not of the Sinkhole/Wasteland design, mana tax effects maybe of lesser efficiency. What's this slot for?
The Disk is there because it can remove RIP, Encroach is there to punish decks with greedy mana bases.
But the SB is really under construction.
Punishing fire gives you inevitability, but not versus combo and control. A big beater like Tombstalker would be better.Originally Posted by Copperhead
Lavaclaw Reaches is worse than mishras factory, imho. Three mana activation cost? And then you want to inflate it...
While saccing your own lands. Punishing Fire would be good with Loam, but wait, that's AggroLoam.. Stensia Bloodhall would be difficult as well.
Re: Punishing Fire, well, that is true. It's supposed to be for creature decks. Against blue-based combo (OmniTell, ANT, etc.) I would probably board something like:
-1 Nether Spirit
-3 Punishing Fire
-2 Dreadbore
+2 Pyroblast
+2 Slaughter Games
+2 Sphere of Resistance
I haven't tested Sphere of Resistance much. Would Tombstalker be better to put them on a clock rather than slow them down with Sphere?
Definitely struggling with the lands. Grove is essential to Punishing Fire of course, but it competes for space with other non-black mana sources (want to run at least 17 Black sources). I want to run Mishra's Factory but I like getting the colored mana from Reaches. I don't like that Reaches CIPT, of course. Maybe something like:
3 Wasteland
1 Stensia Bloodhall
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Badlands
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Swamp
Which is 16 Black sources, not terrible but not great either.
Stensia Bloodhall is an OK card vs Jace, but this really mean it also belong in the sideboard.
Any reason that Holy Pox gets no love? I honestly think its the best version (tested loam pox and mono black). With Vindicate you can even do the mana denial plan against decks with basics with a ton of consistency. Flagstones of Trokair and Pox combo so well its insane. Lingering Souls is a house. Swords to plowshares is arguably better than Innocent Blood in a lot of cases. Sideboard options like Silence/Abeyance and Ethersworn Canonist are great against combo. Anyone else agree?
I used to love B/W Pox. As soon as I get my mitts on another set of Vindicates I will love it again I'm sure. For now though I have a sideboard question.
I have a B/G Loam Pox build with Mox Diamonds and Chalice of the Void main - very similar to the deck discussed a few pages back. I'm preparing for a tournament, and I'm rethinking the sideboard. I currently have 4 Trinisphere (vs Storm) 4 Leyline of the Void (vs Dredge, Tinfins, etc) 3 Engineered Plague (vs. Goblins, Elves) and 4 empty slots. The local meta is unknown to me, so what would you run in those 4 slots, and do the other 11 look right? I'm trying to prepare for anything... What could I run vs. Show and Tell decks? Are there any lesser seen, but nightmarish matchups I should look out for? I'm hoping to beat Control and Tempo decks based on the nature of Pox, so the Board should shore up Combo and Aggro, I guess. Krosan Grip? Ratchet Bomb? Tombstalker? Phyrexian Negator? Infest? Something to deal with affinity? Thanks!
Hey all, I think i have a post a few pages back with an abysmal list that did not perform well at all with ankh of mishra.
I'm back again with a new list and are looking for possible suggestions/criticisms.
I don't know all the downsides, but this is what i have observed:
1. It's creatureless. I like it that way.
2. it's pure discard. (because i wanna keep it mono black, if i wanted to go land destruction, i'd splash green for loam, wastelands, abrupt decay etc.)
3. I know it's painful, but i have taken a long time to test this out, and the draw conditions are golden in this deck, they feed my discard/removal spells and out clock blue in draws and just put me ahead, also i can choose not to use them given the situation.
(as opposed to Bob, phyrexian arena, or underworld connections taking a mana from me to use spells in the same turn)
3. my major concerns are what matchups are just abysmal and what to sideboard against.
Pure Discard Spells:
4x funeral charm
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x thoughtseize
3x inquisition of kozilek
Creature Removal:
4x Innocent Blood
3x liliana of the veil
4x Smallpox
Draw Conditions:
4x night's whisper
2x sign in blood
Win conditions(aside from mishra's factory, whish is an alternative):
4x shrieking affliction
4x The Rack
Land:
12x Swamp
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Sideboard:
3x dystopia
4x leyline of the void
4x mindbreak trap
2x planar void
2x ratchet bomb
As you can see, I reeled in the graveyard hate. my meta has a devout manaless dredge player and reanimator is pretty popular at the moment from what i've seen in the tournies.
Reasoning behind the sideboard:
1. I have the dystopia in there for leyline of sanct.
2. anything with graveyard interactions kinda get helped by me, so a lot of graveyard hate.
3. Mindbreak trap because storm and other combos are HUGE in my area.
3. my concern is ratchet bomb.(Chalice of the void on 1 ruins me) i am wondering if pithing needle or infest might just be better.
I also know that burn kinda beats me, with all the dmg i'm doing to myself to feed the discard with draw conditons and thoughtseize
I think i will eventually change out the sign in blood with [card]sensei's diving top[/card] but that's economically infeasible at the moment.
what do you think?
A couple of Krosan Grips and Ratchet Bombs for sure. Toxic Deluge could be considered in place of Perish or Engineered Plague when it comes out if you don't run Big Pox. If you do, Big Pox is good vs Show and Tell.
Dystopia,.. That's pretty good sideboard tech vs Leyline of Sanctity as that is one of the toughest things against Discard Pox. I would say yes to at least 3 Ratchet Bombs if Chalice ruins you, because you will see it from time to time.
Surgical extraction is better than leyline.
slightly worse vs dredge but add versatility to handle other match-ups.
Along with discard you can remove key cards from a deck. Like omnitell for example.
Generally speaking try figure out what decks are least likely to turn up in numbers, and ignore them. Odds are they will be someone else problem after all.
Myself I would worry more about Shardless Agent than Omnitell, or ANT, for example. Or Delver decks.
2. If you wanted to go Land Destruction, Sinkhole+Wasteland is better than Loam etc. Why? Much faster. Also kills basics. Pure discard is tricky in that they can just cast what they top deck. When you nuke their lands at the same time, their dead draws get discarded away since you stall them. For pure discard, I'd add the 4th Inquisition and remove the Funeral Charms for 3 Wrench Minds. 2 for 1 them all day. Or they throw away an Aether Vial, Crucible of Worlds, or Umezawa's Jitte. Fine by me ^_^
3. Since you've tested it and it works, I'm assuming the life you're bleeding away isn't being smashed by fast creature swarms. But that's what the sideboard is for right? I suppose killing your opponent with Sign in Blood adds humor value, but my experience with any hard draw got me killed faster in my local meta which is mostly aggro. How often do you get the draw spell, but can't use it due to life total being too low?
4. Your build definitely needs to sideboard against fast draw decks that dump their hand quickly using very cheap threats. Some targetted creature removal wouldn't hurt. I'd recommend Smother or Spinning Darkness.
Here's hoping your pure discard version works! I never could get it to work :(
Omni:
Thanks for the input!
1. As for land destruction, It changes how the deck plays that kinda slows the clock on the Shrieking Affliction and [CARD] the rack[/CARDS], by having no land to play their cards it keeps their hands more full. I know the argument there is "this is a control deck and your goal is to keep them from playing anything." but the way it plays with everything I run into, it plays more with the speed of a mid range deck. From what i've seen thus far, if you have a lot of non-targetted discard spells, the opponent will usually discard a land over the spell they wish to play the next turn and essentially locks them out later in the same manner. I think i just need to playtest against a wider range of decks to see what they can drop in 1 turn that can disrupt me.
2. My primary playtesting partner is a burn player that runs all fetches, grim lavamancers, fireblast, etc.. all the speed 1cc spells and I usually go 60% win against him (unless he sides in guerrilla tactics then i just lose, but our meta doesn't really allow for him to run that sideboard) I think the reason I do well is the draw conditions as well as a few other responses. Funeral charm is a targetted removal against weenies(like grim lavamancer, and i just use 2x funeral charm against things like goblin guide because with the draw conditions i just run into any of the 11 cards i have to kill creatures). I actually think its the sorcery draw conditions that make the deck. It's not a bob i need to remove myself before it kills me, and i can choose to not draw so much unless i really need to when i am playing an aggro deck. with six 2cc draw spells i run into all my creature hate i need and feed the discard.
Like you said, it might need something against fast drawing aggro decks, and I am more worried about merfolk because it's got all the glory of blue with counters and draw conditions, but it's not apperent in my meta.i have yet to be able to playtest anybody that plays elves, but discard pairs very well against combo. I am afraid of tribal and swarms. but i have considered infest and Damnation, but i just need to find somebody that plays those well and see how it fairs to see how the draw conditions run into my removal at the pace they are able to put it out.
3. Wrench Mind is a good choice, but i really like funeral charm, it gives me options. I can pump mishra's factory to speed the clock if their hand is empty, remove a 1 toughness creature, swing around a creature they have to block with my urborg, and it even interupts storm because it's the only instant speed discard spell. (I love that aspect, they pop a lion's eye and a tutor and i just eat their card they tutored for on their turn.) But I'll have to see if it would just be better to lower and go for a more powerful spot removal, as far as i've seen the draw conditions just let me run into everything i need.
i gotta see how it will fair for me to change it, i am playing a tourny in nov, if anybody else sees any reactions that might serve better feel free to express them.
Fellow pox players,
I have been playing pox off and on now for about a year. Haven't had much success yet.
Has anyone thought about the new card from commander 2013, 'Ophiomancer'?
http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardd...product=514879
I feel like this could be a great tool for pox. Keeps goyf and friends off our back all day long, and is immune to smallpox/innocent blood.
Hey, I'm still head-scratching over my sideboard. This is my list:
4 mox diamond
4 chalice of the void
3 life from the loam
4 liliana of the veil
4 smallpox
4 sinkhole
4 hymn to tourach
3 abrupt decay
2 pox
2 sylvan library
1 bloodghast
1 nether spirit
4 bayou
4 verdant catacombs
4 wasteland
4 mishra's factory
4 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2 swamp
1 forest
1 cabal pit
I'm trying to side against storm, omnitell, sneak and show, goblins, elves, and other random aggro like affinity and infect stompy. I'm headed for a small-time LGS tourney, and I really don't know what to expect, but those are matchups that I feel need help. Sadly I don't have much opportunity to play real games so I can't work this out for myself.
The maindeck Chalice does a lot, but I want to bring in either Trinisphere or Sphere of Resistance to help out vs. Storm. I see Trini in more pox sideboards - is there a particular reason to choose it over Sphere of Resistance? Should these come in vs Omnitell to slow down their cantripping? I'm going to go with Surgical Extractions to help against Dredge and friends, and they could also be good alongside my discard effects vs Show and Tell decks. Is Engineered Plague enough to deal with Goblins and Elves? Should I run Infest to help out since it also hits affinity? Ratchet Bomb comes in against Empty the Warrens or Bridge from Below - Is it helpful against Goblins at all? I have a million questions! Anyways, I'm currently going with this:
4 surgical extraction
4 trinisphere
3 engineered plague
3 ratchet bomb
1 abrupt decay
Any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks!
how prevalent is your meta in storm?
Mindbreak Trap
Personally, I vastly prefer Nether Void over either Sphere of Resistance or Trinisphere. The problem with Trinisphere is it only taxes cheap spells. This is all fine and well against most combo, but it means it has to sit in the board, as it does nothing against most midrange and control decks. You can run Void in the main, since it's also terrific against midrange/aggro (in fact, pretty much everything that doesn't run Aether Vial), and thus free up more sideboard space. I would cut Pox for them. Also, while the Chalice of the Void main is admirable, it might not be helping your combo matchup that much, since it cuts off Surgical Extraction/Extirpate and precludes you from playing 1cc hand disruption (Inquisition of Kozilek or Thoughtseize), which might be more important. Infest is great (I even ran Black Sun's Zenith for a while!), and I find it does a lot more than Engineered Plague nowadays. You need your anti-creature slot to be killing x/2's, and taking care of a wide range of creatures for it to be worth running against midrange (where you'll want it).
The Ratchet Bomb is nice, and certainly provides redundancy with Infest/E. Plague against token hordes and the like, but is it good enough against Jace? I often struggle with planeswalkers, and have taken to running 4 Pithing Needle in the board as a catch-all. You have more threats, and so may be able to hold off Jace, but when they find the Swords to Plowshares/Terminus, sometimes he just goes all the way. I would also try to fit the last Abrupt Decay in the main. It is dead in so few matchups, and provides such an effective foil to our plentiful edict effects that I'm always happy to draw it.
Finally, I would consider adding a 25th land (and not cutting anything). I too run a 4-Mox-Diamond list with Sylvan Library, and I found the perfect manabase for me was 25/61. The 25th land improves your Mox Diamonds, and by making it a utility land you improve your Loaming also. Might I suggest The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale?
I strongly dislike Mindbreak Trap. I feel the format has moved beyond it. If you run Mindbreak, most of the time your storm opponent will spot it before going off (either with a Gitaxian Probe or with the Duress that takes it), making it no better than a permanent piece of hate (for example, Sphere of Resistance or Trinisphere), in that it simply requires them to draw/find their answer. The difference is that the permanent hate-piece impedes them even as they try to find their answer, by taxing cantrips, or limiting their spells per turn (Ethersworn Canonist/Rule of Law, etc.), while the Mindbreak Trap does nothing. As if that wasn't enough, we're talking about a card that needs to sit dormant in your hand, and you're running 4 Liliana of the Veil and 4 Smallpox.
@ Dolphy
Sadly I do not have access to Nether Voids at the moment. I'd love to run them. You've given me a lot to think about. I will definitely try out the Tabernacle add, and I will look at Infest over E. Plague. You're right about the Surgical Extraction/Chalice of the Void thing of course, I'm going with the theory that my first Chalice vs Storm is on 0. I have no idea what the meta will be, but I know my friend is on TES and it's a small tourney. The small meta thing is why I'm worried about random aggro. This isn't some big event where I will face alternating RUG and Stoneblade matchups. Beyond Jace, what would you bring Needle in against? Sneak Attack? Candelabra? Sensei's Divining Top? Aether Vial? A lot of people have Krosan Grips in their Boards. What is the primary target there? Sneak Attack, Leyline of Sanctity, Top? I can ask questions all night:) Thanks!
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