Commander 2013 discussion

[CalebD]

Nice read. Surprised to see you did not put Nemesis into Team America though.

It might belong there, but I was trying to emphasize Toxic as a Plague Wind.

[Koby]

It might belong there, but I was trying to emphasize Toxic as a Plague Wind.

A little off-topic, but I'm curious why Black Sun's Zenith has not seen the same application in Team America, esp vs Tribal & Vial decks.

[Darkenslight]

A little off-topic, but I'm curious why Black Sun's Zenith has not seen the same application in Team America, esp vs Tribal & Vial decks.

Quite possibly the BB in its cost and the scaling issue also seen in Bane of the Living. Both have an X in their relevant costs. Deluge only has a B in its cost, and is much more splashable.

[Koby]

Quite possibly the BB in its cost and the scaling issue also seen in Bane of the Living. Both have an X in their relevant costs. Deluge only has a B in its cost, and is much more splashable.

Possibly, but Team America has routinely cast: Sinkhole, Tombstalker, Hymn to Tourach; and now some versions have DRS to supplement its mana advancement.

[Richard Cheese]

A little off-topic, but I'm curious why Black Sun's Zenith has not seen the same application in Team America, esp vs Tribal & Vial decks.

I would guess that there's just no reason to run it over Golgari Charm. Charm is one mana cheaper, has other useful modes, and at x=2 you start killing your own Delvers and Deathrites and putting Tombstalkers in bolt range.

[TsumiBand]

I would guess that there's just no reason to run it over Golgari Charm. Charm is one mana cheaper, has other useful modes, and at x=2 you start killing your own Delvers and Deathrites and putting Tombstalkers in bolt range.

I guess this will depend on how often TNN is actually a 3/1. Pretty much every deck people are pointing to as a home for True-Name have some way of raising his toughness.

[apple713]

Possibly, but Team America has routinely cast: Sinkhole, Tombstalker, Hymn to Tourach; and now some versions have DRS to supplement its mana advancement.

the issue is that its inferior to other options....
at
x = 1 infest is better
x = 2 massacre is probably better cause it has the option to be free / Damnation
x = 3 damnation is probably superior

Team america doesn't want an excess of mana so x=3 is probably rare in that deck.

[2Rach]

A little off-topic, but I'm curious why Black Sun's Zenith has not seen the same application in Team America, esp vs Tribal & Vial decks.

-1/-1 counters, ironically, makes it weaker. The whole point of -x/-x effects being good is that you can scale them against their creatures. Your opponents' x/1 creatures die and your fatties end up ok. Putting -1/-1 counters on your big guys takes the wind out of the sails imo. And obviously there are better cards that you could run, like Golgari Charm.

Also, versatility is key. With only a max of 15 sb slots your card needs to be really good against what you're looking for if really narrow(Perish, Virtue's Ruin, Chill) or moderately good against a good amount of matchups(Golgari Charm, Pernicious Deed, Duress).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It looks like the value cards are True-Name Nemesis and Baleful Strix in the UBR deck, Unexpectedly Absent in the UWG deck, and Toxic Deluge in the UWB deck. Each deck has a Command Tower and a Sol Ring. Am I missing anything?

It's kind of frustrating that the cards that are interesting for Legacy are in one deck each instead of multiple decks. Wouldn't True-Name Nemesis be perfect in the UWG Twiddle deck?

I think Restore is interesting and potentially Legacy playable, and it's in multiple decks. The other Legacy-playables are certainly one-ofs though.

[AngryTroll]

I think Restore is interesting and potentially Legacy playable, and it's in multiple decks. The other Legacy-playables are certainly one-ofs though.

Good call; Restore is currently flying pretty low on the radar, but looks interesting.

[tinker]

I feel like Toxic Deluge deserves a slightly bigger level of enthusiasm, since it's probably the most playable 3-mana Wrath in Legacy that isn't beholden to creature types or colors or indestructible nonsense.

Otherwise I like it.

I'm also suprised that people haven't talked about toxic deluge. I would be willing to loose life just to wipe the board. You can potentially have it out in turn 2, if need be, using deathrite.

[rufus]

I think Restore is interesting and potentially Legacy playable, and it's in multiple decks. The other Legacy-playables are certainly one-ofs though.

Strategic Planning seems like an interesting reprint.

What's the order of play for Tempt with Discovery?

[Aggro_zombies]

Strategic Planning seems like an interesting reprint.

What's the order of play for Tempt with Discovery?

It's turn order, so your opponent will see what land you get before they make a choice (and then you get to see their choice before making your next one).

[rufus]

It's turn order, so your opponent will see what land you get before they make a choice (and then you get to see their choice before making your next one).

So Thespian's Stage-> Dark Depths isn't going to happen often. The joy of choice cards. Even so, it's one of a very small number of cards that will fetch any land.

[Aggro_zombies]

So Thespian's Stage-> Dark Depths isn't going to happen often. The joy of choice cards. Even so, it's one of a very small number of cards that will fetch any land.

Well, if you fetch either half, your opponent can just find Wasteland and wait. They'll be able to respond to the activation to take out Stage.

Whether it's better to get Waste and let them find both pieces or not get Waste and let them sit on one (with the other possibly in hand) is another issue.

[cherub_daemon]

Does nothing by itself, and takes a long time to come out outside of a stompy mana base. It would be marginally more interesting if it were a replacement instead of a triggered ability, but mostly it seems awful. I guess you can sleeve up your Soldier of Fortunes. They could have at least given it a body and flash like Aven Mindcensor or made the cc more reasonable like Leonin Arbiter.

Widespread Panic
2R
Enchantment Rare
Whenever a spell or ability causes its controller to shuffle his or her library, that player puts a card from his or her hand on top of his or her library.

Just to clarify, they cut off any interesting interaction between this and Soldier of Fortune or Surgical Extraction by saying that the controller has to control the effect to cause the shuffle. I was hoping that Bitter Ordeal might finally have become useful, but no go.

What I'm looking for is a way to benefit you to be able to put your own stuff on top of your library, but the only thing I've got at the moment is Skill Borrower, which is sorta bleh. The card I was thinking of originally was Mise, which is not, as they say, Legacy-legal. Soooo...Draco Explosion?

Seems fun on its face, but I'm pretty sure it's terrible. As per Rufus, Flash would have made it interesting, or a 1CC.

[rufus]

...

What I'm looking for is a way to benefit you to be able to put your own stuff on top of your library, but the only thing I've got at the moment is Skill Borrower, which is sorta bleh. The card I was thinking of originally was Mise, which is not, as they say, Legacy-legal. Soooo...Draco Explosion?

Seems fun on its face, but I'm pretty sure it's terrible. As per Rufus, Flash would have made it interesting, or a 1CC.

Heh. It's worse than I originally thought.
I'm not entirely sure about the timing, but you should be able to put a card on top of your deck, and then fire it off with violent outburst, and maybe other cascade cards. (The usual suspects would be no-cc suspend cards.)

I think WotC are recognizing that tutors somewhat mangle the desired properties of EDH/Commander. This is their first attempt to deal with that. Soon they'll print an overpowered/undercosted version in .

[SirTylerGalt]

I think Restore is interesting and potentially Legacy playable, and it's in multiple decks. The other Legacy-playables are certainly one-ofs though.

Turn 1: Play land, Steppe Lynx
Turn 2: Play fetchland, fetch land, cast Restore on fetchland, fetch another land. Attack with 8/9 Steppe Lynx

Add Vinelasher Kudzu for some fun Landfall deck. You could even splash blue for Delver, Daze, and Ensnare.



Another approach would be to play Lotus Cobra and generate mana with it...

[TsumiBand]

Widespread Panic
2R
Enchantment Rare
Whenever a spell or ability causes its controller to shuffle his or her library, that player puts a card from his or her hand on top of his or her library.

Just to clarify, they cut off any interesting interaction between this and Soldier of Fortune or Surgical Extraction by saying that the controller has to control the effect to cause the shuffle. I was hoping that Bitter Ordeal might finally have become useful, but no go.

Oi, I missed that on the first pass. That's a good catch.

Insert troll post about how between Widespread Panic and Unexpectedly Absent, RW Rifter has a powerful new ally in opponent's shuffling?

...

[(nameless one)]

When do these become legacy legal?