All B/R update speculation.

[bjholmes3]

Dragon dies to most removal.
the Animate Dead dies to Abrupt Decay and can't be countered.
Dragon can be exiled from DRS while in the yard.

Still, some people could draw the game and troll everyone.

If you're using the dragon to draw, you're doing it wrong.

[DragoFireheart]

If you're using the dragon to draw, you're doing it wrong.

I probably wouldn't use him at all TBH.

[Lemnear]

You can't draw with Dragon anymore afaik. You have to break that infinite loop with Dragon at some point 'cause Animate Dead doesn't target afaik and that would result in you being forced to find another or no target to not get DQ'd for stalling? Is this correct?

[jamis]

Animate Dead is an aura, so even though its worded strangely, it still targets. As for unbanning WGD, it should definitely stay banned imo. The combo itself is probably not strong enough that it'd make any impact. As already mentioned, there's more than enough answers to it, and you're turning the 2-card combo reanimator uses into a 3-card combo, so you're better off not using it. Still, when you walk into your LGS with WGD, you're the biggest asshole in the room. I mean, does anyone seriously want to play against this deck?

[DragoFireheart]

I mean, does anyone seriously want to play against this deck?

I felt the same way about Stasis decks back in the day.

[LennonMarx]

Animate Dead is an aura, so even though its worded strangely, it still targets. As for unbanning WGD, it should definitely stay banned imo. The combo itself is probably not strong enough that it'd make any impact. As already mentioned, there's more than enough answers to it, and you're turning the 2-card combo reanimator uses into a 3-card combo, so you're better off not using it. Still, when you walk into your LGS with WGD, you're the biggest asshole in the room. I mean, does anyone seriously want to play against this deck?

I assume you are on board with banning High Tide, then?

[jamis]

I assume you are on board with banning High Tide, then?

Time is a concern with WGD since you'll be playing more games on average than other matches, but not a huge concern since the combo itself can be made into a sequence of short-cuts quite easily, so only slower control decks should be going to time against it usually, and those are more used to going to time anyway. My main complaint really is just the fact that the deck can easily draw a game. I have no problem with Wizards' saying that type of strategy shouldn't be allowed.

[Lord Seth]

You can't draw with Dragon anymore afaik. You have to break that infinite loop with Dragon at some point 'cause Animate Dead doesn't target afaik and that would result in you being forced to find another or no target to not get DQ'd for stalling? Is this correct?

My understanding is that if there's another target for Animate Dead, then you can't draw with Dragon because you're forced to end the loop by choosing something else (you can still get all the mana you want first though). However, if there isn't, then it's an inescapable infinite loop and a draw.

[LennonMarx]

Time is a concern with WGD since you'll be playing more games on average than other matches, but not a huge concern since the combo itself can be made into a sequence of short-cuts quite easily, so only slower control decks should be going to time against it usually, and those are more used to going to time anyway. My main complaint really is just the fact that the deck can easily draw a game. I have no problem with Wizards' saying that type of strategy shouldn't be allowed.

In legacy, I'm not even sure how easy the draw condition is, as it requires no other creatures in either yard. And besides, if this deck goes to time it just goes to time, it doesn't take an extra 15-20 (worst case) minutes to go off on top of the regulation 50. Playing the deck in vintage years ago, I think the "worst" match I ever had in regards to total games played was like 2-1-2, and that didn't even go to time. With all the hate that exists now, I just don't see how this is remotely unsafe to unban.

Edit: Didn't intend for the triple negative in the last sentence there. My point was I think the card is safe, in regards to both time concerns and power level concerns.

[dontbiteitholmes]

In legacy, I'm not even sure how easy the draw condition is, as it requires no other creatures in either yard. And besides, if this deck goes to time it just goes to time, it doesn't take an extra 15-20 (worst case) minutes to go off on top of the regulation 50. Playing the deck in vintage years ago, I think the "worst" match I ever had in regards to total games played was like 2-1-2, and that didn't even go to time. With all the hate that exists now, I just don't see how this is remotely unsafe to unban.

Edit: Didn't intend for the triple negative in the last sentence there. My point was I think the card is safe, in regards to both time concerns and power level concerns.

The draw condition is pretty easy considering if the Dragon deck has a non-dragon creature in the yard it's going to be a wincon and the only way they have of putting creatures in your yard is countering them or Thoughtsieze.

I agree Dragon isn't the power level it once was but being able to draw a game so easily is too much IMO. I mean if you are going to die next turn you shouldn't be able to be like "Oh here's half my combo game 4."

[jamis]

In legacy, I'm not even sure how easy the draw condition is, as it requires no other creatures in either yard. And besides, if this deck goes to time it just goes to time, it doesn't take an extra 15-20 (worst case) minutes to go off on top of the regulation 50. Playing the deck in vintage years ago, I think the "worst" match I ever had in regards to total games played was like 2-1-2, and that didn't even go to time. With all the hate that exists now, I just don't see how this is remotely unsafe to unban.

Edit: Didn't intend for the triple negative in the last sentence there. My point was I think the card is safe, in regards to both time concerns and power level concerns.

I agree with everything you're saying. An unban would be very low impact on the meta. However, leaving the card banned sets a precedent. It says that if a deck emerges that exploits the rules about infinite loops, it will not be allowed. The rule about infinite loops is important, because weird situations come up during normal play, but a deck with a focus on creating that game state -- even if not the main focus -- is a different story, and I hope Wizards continues to discourage those kinds of decks.

[GexxX]

From my point of view the meta seems okay right now. Everything is able to perform well and nothing is overpowered. If you consider boring decks banworthy Show and Tell might be an option, but I doubt it is needed. We haven't had any real impact on legacy with Theros and the metagame appeals to be shifting back and forth anyway. Deathblade gone, UWR Delver performing well... I think those are good indications for WotC to leave things as they are.

As for the unbannings, which I would like to see and believe are safe to do:

- Earthcraft. It does not look like this would fit in any existing Tier1 Deck. The Combo with Squirrel Nest is also quite easily stoppable. There are quite a few hatecards I expect to be popular in a few months anyhow. Engineered Plague is good against Goblins, Elves and Merfolk to some extend. Just to name one possible sideboard card. I'm sure this topic has been revealed well enough throughout the thread and I don't have to cover it all again. Just think about what your Decks can do to stop this combo and I am quite sure you'll find enough options if you adress the matter properly.

- Frantic Search. Aside from Spiraltide this card has no real application in any of the decks I can think of. It is to slow for Reanimator, to clunky for tempo lists and no other deck does need to untap lands. It may well be of no impact at all as Spiraltide lists seem to have rare space for any card that is not absurdly powerful.

- Mind Twist. Often said, and I agree. This card just works in a control mirror. With all the taxing spells in Legacy it will harly have any effect on tempo lists, midrange will most certainly have the boardpressure you'll be needing to deal with insted of casting a Mind Twist x>=4 and fast combo will propably laugh about it, as it doesn counter their pieces.

I agree with most of you who are saying Worldgorger Dragon is safe to unban with regards to its power level. I actually do not get the point some of you made with the infinite loops being not what Magic was invented for. Well we have a lot of infinite loops legal in Legacy right now. They are simply unplayable. This beautiful constructed format has an awesome card pool and that is the main reason I play Legacy. Why can't I play what I like and be a Johnny if I want to?

[Fatal]

Probably soon new post about TNN (True-Name Nemesis from Commander Arsenal 2013) will appears here ;). Anyway it deserve it not only from power lvl but worst design card ever - totally non-interactive which indicate unfun - WotC didn't you learn anything from printing Omniscience and Enter the Infinity ?

[dontbiteitholmes]

Probably soon new post about TNN (True-Name Nemesis from Commander Arsenal 2013) will appears here ;). Anyway it deserve it not only from power lvl but worst design card ever - totally non-interactive which indicate unfun - WotC didn't you learn anything from printing Omniscience and Enter the Infinity ?

It's never too soon to complain about a card no one has ever played, this is the Source.

[Derklord]

- Frantic Search. (...) It may well be of no impact at all as Spiraltide lists seem to have rare space for any card that is not absurdly powerful.

Frantic Search is absurdly powerful in Tide. So powerful that one could rather easily drop Time Spiral from the list (maybe not the right thing to do but definitly possible).
Nevertheless I doubt that Frantic Search would push the deck into Tier 1 category. If Frantic Search is a problem then not in Tide.

I agree on everything else.

@Fatal: Can we please stop whining about the "non interactiveness"? I don't see everybody crying about the uncounterable and therefor non interactive Abrupt Decay.

[Zombie]

Decay is an answer, not a threat. Nemesis is a threat.

[Darkenslight]

Frantic Search is absurdly powerful in Tide. So powerful that one could rather easily drop Time Spiral from the list (maybe not the right thing to do but definitly possible).
Nevertheless I doubt that Frantic Search would push the deck into Tier 1 category. If Frantic Search is a problem then not in Tide.

I agree on everything else.

@Fatal: Can we please stop whining about the "non interactiveness"? I don't see everybody crying about the uncounterable and therefor non interactive Abrupt Decay.

As Zombie so eloquently 'Nathed before me, TNN is such a bomb, whether it's on an empty board or against most combo - I can easily see a Bant list that Voltrons the hell out of TNN and eats faces. Or you can go UR and play weird cards like Madcap Skills along with Counterburn types.

[Megadeus]

And so it begins

[dontbiteitholmes]

TNN is such a bomb, whether it's on an empty board or against most combo

You can't be quoting that right. Those are the two main situations where it is outclassed by other cards.

[Dice_Box]

True-Name is not a combo killer. Someone playing Combo can just take the 3 a turn and win in a single of their own turns. Save for storm, most combo decks can care less if they are on 3 or less life on their combo turn.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.