As a two-off it does not happen that often. You should already know when you normally draw one of your two Goyfs. It is the same here: That is in the end game state. That is why we do not need 4 Shamans to support TNN in the midrange beater list. Turn 2 TNN is perhaps the case in 4-5% of the tested matches. So TNN is only good for bUrg as a sideboard card versus control/midrange as "Mongoose number 5" that can stall games/kill planeswalkers thanks to evasion or as a main deck card in a meta that eats tempo decks for breakfast. But I hope the latter kind of meta will not exist long enough. Combo decks will clear the fields so that the meta will become balanced even in regions where midrange decks reign supreme. Then we can just play with the stock list in every part of the world ;-).
Did you test against other decks who also played their own TNN?
Only Merfolk and Patriot as I do not see open slots in the Death Blade lists for TNN.
Merfolk becomes rougher but their creatures had evasion versus us even without TNN. The strategy to destroy/counter their lords and the Vials are still the way to win that matchup. We can race a 3/1 creature if we get rid of the rest. I even heard that Merfolk decks will not play TNN as a 4off, but we must wait and see.
Patriot MU stays nearly the same as they had always problems dropping Geist versus us.
If TNN becomes a thing, we need a thrid Pyroblast in the board and/or Golgari Charm. But I do not see the meta wrapping effect now.
Yes, the 4 Noble Hierarch decks have me a little worried ;) Shaman, as powerful as he is, DOES require lands in the graveyard in order to make mana and I don't think that it's fair to assume we'll always have that resource available. After all, eating the entire graveyard is one way to win a Shaman war ;) Bant, with 4 Noble Hierarch though, hmm... Reid Duke won with Bant in Indianapolis last weekend. One of the things that I worry about the most when testing is whether or not we're missing out on some broken strategy because we're so focused on our own decks relative to the known metagame. But in that deck, it seems Knight of the Reliquary seems better. Who knows? I'm excited to see the results of BoM :)
I'm starting to think 3 Snares MB is too much. I've been stuck with it a lot recently. I think I might want to go -2 Snare +2 Pierce. I think we have enough answers to 2 drops in Abrupt Decay. Also, counter intuitive as it may seem, I think Pierce is the way to approach a midgame meta. Most decks that I had a tough time against are Liliana decks. They generally run A.D. which can stop our early Delver. Mana denial can only take us so far. Remember that Jund packs 24 lands!
I've been thinking the same lately. I'd start with the Spell Pierce in the main with the Snare moved to board to help with the Show and Tell decks. It's a tough call though because Snare is so good against Goyf, SFM, Infernal Tutor, etc.
Originally Posted by sherko7
I'm starting to think 3 Snares MB is too much. I've been stuck with it a lot recently. I think I might want to go -2 Snare +2 Pierce. I think we have enough answers to 2 drops in Abrupt Decay. Also, counter intuitive as it may seem, I think 3 Snares is the way to approach a midgame meta. Most decks that I had a tough time against are Liliana decks. They generally run A.D. which can stop our early Delver. Mana denial can only take us so far. Remember that Jund packs 24 lands!
I had to edit my post. I meant "Pierce is the way to approach a midgame meta..", not Snare. Well against Goyfs we have our own Goyfs and Abrupt Decay anyway. SFM we have Stifles too. Infernal Tutor, well, Pierce does the same (almost).
In the current meta game snare is bonkers versus all fair decks. It can make hard games even or move it to our favor. In games 2 and 3 the Spell Pierces are there from the board but Snare is so crucial in game 1. I cannot recommend going down in the Snares numbers. If you want to play main deck Pierces please run Probes, too. Only the combination Probe/Pierce has proven to be ok in tempo decks versus midrange decks or if you do not play Probes, just stick with Snares. It is not easy to explain why that is the matter, but the extra information of Probes makes it manageable to use removal and pierces wisely. Without that you need counters that can hit everything, so Snare is the most logical conclusion after Dazes/Forces. Counterspells and Izzet Charm would work there too - the first hits everything and the second has the removal and pierce option. But as these cards are cc2 we stick with Snares that hit Goyfs, Stoneforges, Confis, Counterbalances, Thalias, Strix, Hymn, Punishing Fire...every key spell in the fair matchups is affected ;-). Versus combo we neither need Snares or Pierces that much. Force, Stifle and Flusterstorms for the win ;-).
Not convinced ... Snare is a blank vs S&T.dec, Elves, Bloodmoon or Planeswalkers. Wouldn't feel too well with such holes in my defense especially because AD can handle most 2cc spells (sans Tutor or Wish)
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I agree that it's a blank against S&T, Blood Moon, and Planeswalkers.
Is Snare really that bad against Elves though? It can counter Elvish Visionary, stopping Symbiote + Visionary shenanigans. It can also counter a GSZ with x=1 (you might want to take Snare out G2 since they will be aware of that). Worst comes to worst, it's still a blue card for FoW.
I run 3 Goyf and 2 Snare. (2 Spell Pierce in the sb)
Snare is very strong, if it ever looks like its dead in a match up, you pitch it to FoW.
Right now I prefer Snare over Pierce, especially if I'm running 4x Daze MD
Snare nabs more problem cards (at every point in the game too.) Try testing against any blade deck. Resolved batterskull game over 85% of the time. Tarmogoyf gets in the way of geese. Tendrils decks can't cast tutors, even if they would otherwise be able to pay for taxation effects. Rest in peace has to be countered most of the time. And you can guarantee that the game will go long enough that miracles can pay 2 for a pierce.
Rest in peace, Grandpa Morphling.
Nemeses Slain:4
You can Decay the Germ-Token, Bolt the SFM, Decay the Goofy ... but you can't battle Silence or Discard with Bolt, Decay or snare
The discussion about Miracles is misleading ... If Miracles ever get enough mana that Pierce doesn't matter anymore (aka before dying) you already lost anyways
RIP is 4 mana against Pierce ... good luck getting 4 mana in time against Wasteland+Stifle+Daze
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Snare handles all problem cards better than Pierce may it be that it hits a creature spell which is obviously Pierce-proof
or is a hard counter versus the problem making non-creature spells. Pierce makes matchups better or solves situations better that are good for our deck or can be handled otherwise. Regarding the lack of protection: Besides the 8 tempo counters and 4 Shroud creatures we overfill the opponent with one drop creatures that he needs to remove. So the opponent runs out of removal and then Goyf can seal the deal.
Went 3-0 & ID my round 4 last night at my local Legacy.
Played this list:
Maindeck: 60
Creatures:14
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
Spells:28
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
Lands:18
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
Round 1 vs Sneak Show
GAME 1) Opponent on the play mulls to 6, turn 1 Lotus petal + Ancient Tomb: Show and Tell. I counter with FoW, he counters back. It resolves. Hello Emrakrul, onto game 2
-4 bolts, -2 Abrupt -2 Mongoose
+2pierces, +2rebs, +1 edict and +2 fire covenant +1 Surgical (I actually boarded this in by mistake)
GAME 2)
I forget exactly what happens but I win with turn 1 DRS followed by Delver, lots of control cards, to a goyf.
GAME 3) Opponent turn 1 petal and island pass turn, I play DRS pass. Turn 2 opponent digs and passes failing to drop a land, pass turn. I draw the surgical surprised to see it. I play a Delver and another DRS. Turn 2 My opponent Pyroclasm sacrificing his petal. I'm starring at the FoW in my hand and my 3 critters debating whether or not to fight. My opponent missed a land drop so I decide to fight. I FoW, my opponent FoW back. Pyroclasm resolves and wipes my board. EOT I surgical his FoW. His hand is fow (which I take), brainstorm, show and tell and emrakrul. so i have to top hope that he doesn't find a sol land with his brainstorm because my hand is out of counters. I play 5/6 Goyf pass. My opponent at 15 life brainstorms, and doesn't find a land. I dispatch my opponent in 3 turns.
1-0
Round 2 vs Meathooks
Cavern of souls makes this match up tricky and those Meathooks get scary real fast.
GAME 1) I FOW my opponent's turn 1 vial... the game turns into a race between my 2 and my DRS, Delvers and my removal vs various flying and muscle slivers and a mutavault. I'm a turn ahead because of my opponents turn 1 Aethervial and should win next swing. Then my opponent casts a Syphon Sliver (all slivers gain life link) and swings for 10. I can't win this race onto game 2
-4 FOW, -4 Stifle, +2 REB, +2 Fire Covenant, +1 Engineered Plague, +1 Golgari Charm, +1 Life from the Loam, +1 Diabolic Edict
GAME 2) I get an early Delver but my attacks are quickly stopped by muscle sliver and gail rider. I kill the flyer to push damage through with delver. Slivers gets out of hand fast as I'm staring down various 3/3 and 4/4 slivers. I top deck a Goyf for defence. I play a 2nd goyf . I draw DRS and the rest of the match is me hiding behind my Goyfs and using DRS until my opponent is dead and holding kill spells.
GAME 3) I get an early loam lock, destroy my opponents mana boosting my goose and goyfs. The highlight play was not dredging wasteland when my opponent had a muta vault and 2 galeriders. He draws a land activates his vault and swings with the team. Fire Covenant for 4 makes him sad face.
2-0
Round 3 vs Bant w DRS
3 rounds, each match was a epic battle that I don't have the attention span to recall and go over in detail.
GAME 2 I lost when m opponent cast lingering souls while having a 9/9 KoTR, i was tilted by the souls and actually forget to flip my delver.
GAME 3 Ended with a risky Fire Covenant paying 7 life to kill a Goyf and Noble hierarch putting me at 2 life and my opponent at 10. I swing with 5/6 Goyf. My opponent flashes in Clique to chump. two turns later its over. After the game someone mentions that my opponent should have taken the 5 damage and done lethal to me on the swing back with clique.
3-0
I draw my last round to prize, do some trades, hang out and socialize.
notes:
Today was the first day I actually cast a Fire Covenant, I really didn't like that the life payment is a part of the casting cost. There was times when I wished it was another abrupt decay or even a Arc trail. There's moments where I just wanted more burn in the board because certain match ups seems like the right play is to hide behind goyf and ping with shaman and something like chain lightning in the board would just speed that up.
Went 2-2 in an LGS earlier. Won against Monoblack Control, Bant Tempo(?), then rounds 3 and 4 were both DnT. Lost both in 3 games. All 6 games against DnT were pretty close except the one where I greedy kept a hand with Ponder, BS, Delver, Daze, Fetch, Bolt, Decay. Ponder + BS didn't give the lands I needed. :(
Good job boys. All games are close so that bUrg proves to be good versus all decks ;-)
Congrats!
What is the logic of boarding in Fire Covenant vs. S&S?
Would you post your sideboard?
Thank you!
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
Obviously he wants to cast it in response of Griselbrand's draw ability when the opponent is low on life and kill Grisel. But I do not know it if is worth it. Emrakul cannot be targeted and the game is almost always over if Griselbrand can draw 7-14 cards.
That was what I figured, but is seems so narrow that I don't think that it's worth it.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
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