Miracle Control

[TheArchitect]

Lossett streams? Can I get a link for future reference?

The guy's been my Legacy idol for a while now, didn't even know he did much like that, so it'd be cool to get a real insight. I've recently switched to a Clique/Venser build over Rip Helm, which is more in line with his style. Playing Creatures just simplifies things. It's fairly similar to your build.

Also, REB is better than Pyro. The split is less effective than slight protection from Misdirection. (They can redirect a Pyro at a FoW to your Counterbalance/Jace/Creature, whereas with REB it's just a counterspell.)

That is not true. Once the mode has been chosen redirecting it cannot change the mode. The only time that is relevant is if your opponent has a delver or something blue that's a permanent and you want to pyroblast it. There are not other blue permanents but it can get redirected to a land and do nothing.

Otherwise, pyroblast has more advantages. Hits non-blue phantasmal images, is good with Ebridge or storm, etc.

[YamiJoey]

That is not true. Once the mode has been chosen redirecting it cannot change the mode. The only time that is relevant is if your opponent has a delver or something blue that's a permanent and you want to pyroblast it. There are not other blue permanents but it can get redirected to a land and do nothing.

Otherwise, pyroblast has more advantages. Hits non-blue phantasmal images, is good with Ebridge or storm, etc.

Pyroblast isn't Modal, REB is. That's why REB is better.

I geberally cut an StP from draft list really early. We play inherently more removal than half the format as it is, and we are left with ~6 1-mana removal Spells, and a 4-mana uncounterable Sweeper, so it's mostly fine. If you're essentially cutting it for a Moat, then you're swapping it for another pseudo-sweeper, so you remain on the same amounts of answers to Creatures, just a more varied (and expensive) range.

EDIT: Also; Bridge is bad for a deck attempting to keep control, and therefore a full grip, and we are not a Storm deck so why is that relevant?

[sarapfish]

I've liked Moat a whole lot. Completely won a game against Slivers all by itself today. He had Crystalline, double Muscle, and Mutavault in play and all my Swords and spot removal were super dead. I drop to like 7 or something. EoT I Enlightened Tutor for Moat. Untap, Moat, win. I've had similar experiences against Death and Taxes and Merfolk.

Round 2: Slivers, 2-0

Nice result! Although, I think -- usually Slivers can get to fly so Moat isn't an auto-win. Slivers are a real pain when they render your counters and spot removal useless.

[Rook1e]

According to the errata on both cards they both modal?

[Jakgotbak]

Pyroblast isn't Modal, REB is. That's why REB is better.

They're both modal:
http://magiccards.info/query?q=Pyroblast&v=card&s=cname
http://magiccards.info/query?q=Red+e...v=card&s=cname

The difference between the two is negligible at this point, but I have beta red blasts, so that's what I play. I don't even bother with the split, b/c if an opponent wants to cut me off red blasts with Meddling Mage instead of naming Jace or Entreat or Top, they're more than welcome.

Also, the Phantasmal Image interaction is only relevant if you have a non-blue creature for them to copy, which is why pyro is better in RUG. For us, though, pretty irrelevant.

It's possible I'm missing something, and I'm sure I'll regret it if I ever get cabal therapy'ed with two in hand, but for now I'm sticking with REB b/c they're prettier, and that's good enough for me.

[alphastryk]

They're both modal:
http://magiccards.info/query?q=Pyroblast&v=card&s=cname
http://magiccards.info/query?q=Red+e...v=card&s=cname

The difference between the two is negligible at this point, but I have beta red blasts, so that's what I play. I don't even bother with the split, b/c if an opponent wants to cut me off red blasts with Meddling Mage instead of naming Jace or Entreat or Top, they're more than welcome.

Also, the Phantasmal Image interaction is only relevant if you have a non-blue creature for them to copy, which is why pyro is better in RUG. For us, though, pretty irrelevant.

It's possible I'm missing something, and I'm sure I'll regret it if I ever get cabal therapy'ed with two in hand, but for now I'm sticking with REB b/c they're prettier, and that's good enough for me.

They're both modal. REB is I think correct to play in this deck so it won't get misdirected from Jace to a nonblue permanent. Not hugely relevant though.

Pyro is better in deck where casting a spell that does nothing is good in addition to the Phantasmal Image thing. (building storm, making Young Pyromance tokens, filling the graveyard for DRS or lavamancer, etc)

[matunos]

G2, I keep a hand of Brainstorm, FoW, Clique, Venser, Counterbalance, REB, Top, Volcanic. Play Volcanic and pass. He goes Street Wraith x3 then Lotus Petal -> Dark Ritual -> Manamorphose -> Cabal Therapy. I BS, drawing Counterspell, Clique, fetchland, putting back CB and Clique. He names FoW and I die. Apparently he also had the Pact of Negation, just in case. Perhaps I should have either FoW'd his Dark Ritual or his Manamorphose, but I'm not really sure.

How does he cast Manamorphose off a Dark Ritual?

[YamiJoey]

Well bollocks my whistle I was wrong. Whatever, then.

Moat Vs Slivers definitely doesn't seem like an auto-win, but whatever it's Slivers and Terminus and Verdict should basically be it the game.

^^^
Well Drza kept 8 cards, so fuck knows what was going on in that game.

[alphastryk]

How does he cast Manamorphose off a Dark Ritual?

Yeah, that doesn't add up. Either way, counter the first fast mana from that deck if you can, that will stop them for at least a turn. (dark ritual in this case)

EDIT:

Well bollocks my whistle I was wrong. Whatever, then.

Moat Vs Slivers definitely doesn't seem like an auto-win, but whatever it's Slivers and Terminus and Verdict should basically be it the game.

^^^
Well Drza kept 8 cards, so fuck knows what was going on in that game.

Yeah, the reporting seems a bit off for that game...

[Kyle]

Hey best friend team, here's my upcoming "Big-Tourney Deck," which I would love some feedback on. I've been playing a "creatureless" version and loving it, with a maindeck Blood Moon. I know there's a fierce Pro Blood Moon / Anti Blood Moon argument, but I think it's relatively easy to filter out and can be a damn shutout against 50% of the decks out there. I currently like my enchantment-heavy build, but know there is room for improvement and flex spots to cut stuff out.

I've found lately that 22 lands with only 8 early-game ways to filter can sometimes get me into trouble and I've been having issues getting a T1 Top, plus my blue count seems a little low for FoW. Given that I'm expecting True Name Nemesis to come out in full force very soon and possibly at SCG LA, I'm thinking another MD Terminus might not be a bad idea.

And lastly, I think my sideboard definitely needs some tweaking.

Without further ado, here we go. I really appreciate yo' feedback.

//Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Misdirection
2 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm

//Sorceries
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus

//Enchantments
1 Energy Field
3 Counterbalance
3 Rest in Peace
1 Blood Moon

//Artifacts
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Sensei's Divining Top

//Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Lands
5 Island
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Karakas

//Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Moat
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Humility
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

[alphastryk]

Kyle - I like that list a lot, pretty close to where I'm at. A few questions though -

1) You really like having 6 pitch counters main? that seems like a lot, especially considering how little misdirection has done for me. Has it been good for you?

2) No Oblivion Ring / D Sphere / EE tutorable general answer effect main? any particular reasoning there or was it just the weakest card and got cut?

Sideboard-wise, I really don't feel like needle does enough these days, what have you felt like you need it against?

[Aetherick]

List

If you're worried about Nemesis, I would prefer to use a Supreme Verdict. Nemesis seems to fit well in those tempo and blade strats and having an uncounterable answer seems better than the fourth terminus. It's also blue.

I think with 4 FoW and 2 Misdirection you have too many pitch effects, and if you ever use one you will probably find yourself unable to cast the other.

I would suggest either cutting down to 3 FoW, or moving 1 of the misdirections to the board (possibly replacing 1 needle, you run tutors so seeing it when you need it shouldn't be too much a problem, and I don't think I would ever want to see multiple needles)

Karakas also seems kind of random with only 2 cliques in the sb.

[Dzra]

Nice result! Although, I think -- usually Slivers can get to fly so Moat isn't an auto-win. Slivers are a real pain when they render your counters and spot removal useless.

Moat Vs Slivers definitely doesn't seem like an auto-win, but whatever it's Slivers and Terminus and Verdict should basically be it the game.

I should say that it's not that Moat should or will always be an auto-win, but in this case he looked at it and said that he had no answers and scooped. He had ended up boarding out his Galerider Slivers for Phyrexian Revokers. I told him after that it was probably wrong, but he still seemed to think it was fine. Regardless, Moat is still solid against them since they have to actually draw their flying sliver and not have it get Swords'd or REB'd. Crystalline is the worst part of this MU by far.

Well Drza kept 8 cards, so fuck knows what was going on in that game.

Good point lol. It was kind of late when I got home and wrote this... I must not have had the other Clique from the opener.

How does he cast Manamorphose off a Dark Ritual?

Sorry ;p ... again, it was kind of late. He pitched a Spirit Guide somewhere in the sequence.

Yeah, that doesn't add up. Either way, counter the first fast mana from that deck if you can, that will stop them for at least a turn. (dark ritual in this case)

Yeah, this is the conclusion that I came to. A better line would have been FoW the Ritual and hold up REB/Brainstorm, hoping that I can Brainstorm EoT and find the second land for Counterbalance. I'm fairly certain that leaving Venser on top would ensure that I cannot die since regardless of which creature he goes for, he cannot cast Dread Return. Possibly it's better to even let the creature resolve if you can put a 4-drop on top, let him dump his deck, then just be all in on countering his Dread Return? I don't think they have access to offensive shuffles or any way to disrupt the top of your deck.

List.

I agree that 6 pitch spells is too much. Probably you want no more than 4 MD, although I agree with alphastryk and am not a fan of Misdirection. (Needle has also been very lackluster for me lately.)

The Energy Field sort of takes the place of the 4th sweeper MD, but you wouldn't do badly to have the Supreme Verdict in the SB regardless.

I'd feel a bit worried about having only ORing and Humility as relevant drops off SNT (and Humility is only good against Sneak Attack). I'd consider adding a Venser or something to your SB. I am completely in love with Venser.

[Kyle]

Thanks for the responses everyone, yes, the maindeck Misdirections are the weakest cards I think right now, and my blue count is a little low for 4 FoWs, so I changed up my list a little more:

//MD
-2 Misdirection
-1 Force of Will
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Counterspell

//SB
-1 Flusterstorm
+1 Supreme Verdict

This takes me to 60 cards exactly (I was at 61 before).

I absolutely love Venser and used to use him a lot in the past, but he can be really clunky at times. He is definitely an "answer to everything" in many cases and then gives the Karakas some real warrant, but I'm now at a position where I should figure out whether or not the Cliques should be MD, which requires more cutting from my current build and strategy.

I'm having a bit of a mental block as to what I should cut or swap next. If I'm expecting a lot of combo at SCG:LA, should I tweak more of the MD at this point? Should I put a MD Flusterstorm instead of the Counterspell? So many decisions...

Regarding the Pithing Needles, I have found them to be quite useful to name Liliana, DrShaman, Metalworker, and Forgemaster, but maybe the Needles could be something better.

[kaosjr]

In my experience Vendilion clique has been one of the most over performing cards in the deck. I'm playing 3 in the main and would never look back. They are good in literally every matchup. Taking Lilliana, disrupting combo, providing a clock vs combo and even pressuring already present planeswalkers. You can also cycle dead cards in your hand. On top of that, I often find myself "clique locking" my opponent with karakas and recasting it on their draw step every turn. The body also trades with nimble mongoose, delvers, attacking pyromancers, bobs, and small goyfs which combined with it's ability can be utterly devastating to an opponent.

[Dzra]

In my experience Vendilion clique has been one of the most over performing cards in the deck. I'm playing 3 in the main and would never look back. They are good in literally every matchup.

Clique + Karakas worked over Lands really well the other night. I felt marginally bad.

[Kyle]

In my experience Vendilion clique has been one of the most over performing cards in the deck. I'm playing 3 in the main and would never look back. They are good in literally every matchup. Taking Lilliana, disrupting combo, providing a clock vs combo and even pressuring already present planeswalkers. You can also cycle dead cards in your hand. On top of that, I often find myself "clique locking" my opponent with karakas and recasting it on their draw step every turn. The body also trades with nimble mongoose, delvers, attacking pyromancers, bobs, and small goyfs which combined with it's ability can be utterly devastating to an opponent.

Yes, my past (once preferred) list ran 2 Cliques and 1 Venser, but didn't have much room with this enchantment-heavy build. I'll keep tweaking, but I'm unsure what to cut.

[kaosjr]

Yes, my past (once preferred) list ran 2 Cliques and 1 Venser, but didn't have much room with this enchantment-heavy build. I'll keep tweaking, but I'm unsure what to cut.

If you have any interest look back for my punishing miracles list. It's pretty sweet haha.

[Kyle]

Given that Miracles has a big problem with Liliana of the Veil, what is really the best thing to get around her? It's often difficult to counter her as it's likely a Liliana player will have already ripped the FoW and/or Spell Pierce out of your hand. I've seen, mostly as reactive options:

• Pithing Needle
• Oblivion Ring
• Detention Sphere
• Celestial Purge
• Engineered Explosives
• Venser, Shaper Savant
• Vendilion Clique (not an insta-kill, just an answer to kill her)

I know in the past people have talked about Bonfire of the Damned in this thread as a Miracles archetype idea if you went a heavy-red route, but could it be that it's a pretty decent idea as a 1- or 2-of in the sideboard even in red-splash builds? It can't be cast if there's an active Teeg out, but maybe it's decent enough - for just 3 mana it could sweep most of your opponent's creatures and a Planeswalker. Just an idea...

[supachai]

Given that Miracles has a big problem with Liliana of the Veil, what is really the best thing to get around her? It's often difficult to counter her as it's likely a Liliana player will have already ripped the FoW and/or Spell Pierce out of your hand. I've seen, mostly as reactive options:

• Pithing Needle
• Oblivion Ring
• Detention Sphere
• Celestial Purge
• Engineered Explosives
• Venser, Shaper Savant
• Vendilion Clique (not an insta-kill, just an answer to kill her)

I know in the past people have talked about Bonfire of the Damned in this thread as a Miracles archetype idea if you went a heavy-red route, but could it be that it's a pretty decent idea as a 1- or 2-of in the sideboard even in red-splash builds? It can't be cast if there's an active Teeg out, but maybe it's decent enough - for just 3 mana it could sweep most of your opponent's creatures and a Planeswalker. Just an idea...

I don't think Liliana is scary enough of a threat to warrant any extra dedicated cards. Unless your meta is full of Jund and Shardless BUG, 3 Cliques plus Venser is usually enough to deal with her. With tight play and the correct game plan, Liliana is very beatable, assuming she doesn't come down turn 2.

Liliana is scariest earliest in the game. We aren't super afraid of her plusing, and her sacrifice ability isn't usually that relevant. We are only afraid of her ultimate, which kills our lands. It's scariest early because we have few ways to stop her. Once we hit 3 lands, Clique can come in end of turn and take a huge chunk out of Liliana, usually preventing her from minusing without killing herself or sometimes just killing Liliana directly. If Liliana has built up to 5-6 counters, Venser can come in to reset her (sometimes in response to her plus, which is amazing). I find that letting Liliana discard both of our hands, and then letting Venser get rid of her and put us both in top deck mode actually favors us, especially if we have Top in play. Of course, that's not always going to happen, and sometimes Liliana ultimate will get you, but even then, it's not the end of the world. You can Entreat in response, or slowly build up your lands again if they don't have the pressure. Either way, your game plan should be Clique and Venser. If you can't deal with Liliana immediately, turn 2 (and turn 3 to an extent) Liliana should probably warrant a Force. Even better if you can snag it with Spell Pierce (and why I run 3 main).

Out of the board, you also have Explosives (and Needle I guess, but I wouldn't board that in against Jund/BUG). I would stay away from narrow cards like Celestial Purge.

Like people have been saying, Clique is absolutely amazing. Run 3.