Miracle Control

[Dzra]

Given that Miracles has a big problem with Liliana of the Veil, what is really the best thing to get around her?

The best things that I've found are having more Cliques, Entreats, and Vensers. Leyline of Sanctity is also really good at stopping the relevant parts of Liliana (and can be run as a 1-of with Enlightened Tutor).

[twndomn]

Given that Miracles has a big problem with Liliana of the Veil, what is really the best thing to get around her? It's often difficult to counter her as it's likely a Liliana player will have already ripped the FoW and/or Spell Pierce out of your hand. I've seen, mostly as reactive options:

"Big" problem is an incorrect assessment. Liliana by herself is not the issue here. If both Shardless Bug and Miracle have nothing but lands (non-tarpit) with no hands, with Liliana on Shardless player's side and Top on Miracle's side, it's actually more advantageous for the Miracle player.

In reality, Liliana ultimate is the only thing you have to play around. As to your list, I would argue Elspeth is another option. Also, your ability to deal with Liliana depends on which version you're running. Rip-Helm game 1 is probably the worst. Even with SB, it's not that great if you don't start the game w/ leyline. As others said, if Shardless Bug is rampant in your local area, Punishing Miracle is always an option.

[YamiJoey]

If Lili is big in your area; RiP Helm is probably the best version of the deck. A G1 Rip just ends things against a fair few decks.

Either way, Lili is one of the Spells I'd be fine Forcing and such, if not my D-Sphere/EE will have to get there. She's good, but we can deal with it.

Also D-Sphere is incredibly important for Creatureless builds.

[blacknapkins]

Also, your ability to deal with Liliana depends on which version you're running. Rip-Helm game 1 is probably the worst. Even with SB, it's not that great if you don't start the game w/ leyline. As others said, if Shardless Bug is rampant in your local area, Punishing Miracle is always an option.

I can speak to the viability of Punishing Miracles against Liliana decks. I have run Punishing Fires in Miracles for months, and it has proven an effective means of holding off BGx decks that run out Deathrite Shaman, Dark Confidant, Liliana etc.. With the Grove/Fire combo online Shardless BUG and Jund (two matchups I found difficult when I was playing a RIP/Helm list) basically have to Wasteland the Grove to make any serious advancement on the board. Buying time in this manner allows us to dig for a bomb, be it Moat, Humility or Entreat, and close out the game. I have liked the Punishing Fires a lot, and coupled with my sideboard Leylines I feel like I can neuter Liliana pretty handily.

That said, I have found the tempo match ups more difficult than I expected. Punishing Miracles, in theory, seems effective here again, but in practice I have have lost more matches against UWR Delver than I have won.. This is the only match up where the mana base instability can really be exploited by our opponent. I also just find the tempo match up to be the trickiest to navigate (I'm open to advice on how to handle the tempo decks, UWR Delver in particular).

For reference here is my Punishing Miracles list. I used to run an Enlightened Tutor package instead of the Cliques/Venser/Karakas tech, but I wanted more reach against my opponents. I've considered going back to main deck Tutors so that I can readily find bombs like Moat or Blood Moon (I never liked turning off the Grove/Fire combo with a Blood Moon, but that card will win games on its own if the board is clear).

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance

1 Venser, Shaper Savant
3 Vendilion Clique

3 Punishing Fire
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
3 Terminus
4 Brainstorm
1 Detention Sphere

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Entreat the Angels

4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
2 Plains
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Karakas

SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Terminus
SB: 1 Moat

[Poron]

I see lists without both Snapcaster Mage and Rest in Peace. Imho, it should be either one of the two

[Kyle]

If Lili is big in your area; RiP Helm is probably the best version of the deck. A G1 Rip just ends things against a fair few decks.

Either way, Lili is one of the Spells I'd be fine Forcing and such, if not my D-Sphere/EE will have to get there. She's good, but we can deal with it.

Also D-Sphere is incredibly important for Creatureless builds.

Is the main reason for D-Sphere over O-Ring that it can take out multiple threats at a time, or can be pitched to Force of Will? I think with REBs Show and Tell will be bringing in postboard, it might be a liability, but maybe it's such a narrow liability for such great benefit?

[Poron]

I start to think that we should start to consider a couple of Equipment in sight of adding the new Merfolk..

[twndomn]

If Lili is big in your area; RiP Helm is probably the best version of the deck. A G1 Rip just ends things against a fair few decks.

That's just plain wrong. G1 Rip does nothing to Shardless BUG's Strix, Jace, Liliana, Ancestral Vision, Tarpit. It ends nothing. You assume only Jund would run Liliana, that's about the only case Rip Helm would be ok.

As Oarsman mentioned before, ever since the Legend rule change, the version suffers the most is Rip Helm, because that version lacks ways to pressure opponent's planeswalker(s). You might get lucky by resolving a Ring/Sphere on Liliana, but Shardless just drop another Jace/Liliana after. Your Ring/Sphere does nothing to protect your own Jace from Tarpit anyhow.

[Dzra]

Is the main reason for D-Sphere over O-Ring that it can take out multiple threats at a time, or can be pitched to Force of Will? I think with REBs Show and Tell will be bringing in postboard, it might be a liability, but maybe it's such a narrow liability for such great benefit?

Really, Sneak Attack is the only deck I'm worried about REBing my DSphere. The mirror is the only other MU where it might come up, but there's a good chance I'm willing to throw away my DSphere for their REB. I haven't been blown out by Sneak Attack yet, but there is a fear that I'll drop DSphere off of an early Show and Tell only to have it REB'd during my EoT. Against anything else, DSphere is pretty much just better.

That said... in light of the Invitational results, perhaps an ORing would be safer for a large tournament or just replacing it outright with a Pithing Needle. I really dislike Pithing Needle at the moment, but it is amazing against Sneak Attack. I assume also that if you put a Pithing Needle down off of Show and Tell that they would be unable to respond with either their Griselbrand or their Sneak Attack?

[Aetherick]

That said... in light of the Invitational results, perhaps an ORing would be safer for a large tournament or just replacing it outright with a Pithing Needle. I really dislike Pithing Needle at the moment, but it is amazing against Sneak Attack. I assume also that if you put a Pithing Needle down off of Show and Tell that they would be unable to respond with either their Griselbrand or their Sneak Attack?

Yep, since it's an "As pithing needle ... " instead of "When", so there's no trigger. And since they enter at the same time, they can't do anything until you name something.

[YamiJoey]

That's just plain wrong. G1 Rip does nothing to Shardless BUG's Strix, Jace, Liliana, Ancestral Vision, Tarpit. It ends nothing. You assume only Jund would run Liliana, that's about the only case Rip Helm would be ok.

As Oarsman mentioned before, ever since the Legend rule change, the version suffers the most is Rip Helm, because that version lacks ways to pressure opponent's planeswalker(s). You might get lucky by resolving a Ring/Sphere on Liliana, but Shardless just drop another Jace/Liliana after. Your Ring/Sphere does nothing to protect your own Jace from Tarpit anyhow.

WTF it stops DRS and Goyf, which are two major threats. I also didnnt say it kills Shardless, just that it was good there. It turns of a couple of cards in their deck, and the overall build has things like Energy Field to help you beat tedius Tar Pits and things.

D-Sphere is just so much better; right down to hitting Angels in the mirror.

[twndomn]

WTF it stops DRS and Goyf, which are two major threats. I also didnnt say it kills Shardless, just that it was good there. It turns of a couple of cards in their deck, and the overall build has things like Energy Field to help you beat tedius Tar Pits and things.
D-Sphere is just so much better; right down to hitting Angels in the mirror.

The scenario of the following has a higher probability of occurring:
1. You get your Rip-EF going
2. Shardless cascade into vision or brainstorm to draw more cards.
3. Eventually Shardless Abrupt Decay RiP, then wasteland your non-basic, hence EF is gone.
4. Now Shardless tries to resolve Liliana/Jace, bury you in CA.

The bottom line is what others have mentioned, after Legend rule change was implemented, Rip-Helm has no real ways of pressuring opponent's Planeswalkers, unless you jam Clique into that version somehow. This weakness is even more evident against Shardless BUG, since it has so many. Shardless doesn't have to beat Miracle using DRS and/or Goyf, simply resolving planeswalker and/or A. Vision would do.

D-Sphere is just so much worse. The only plus side is the FoW-pitch. When you intend to remove something from the board, you want to be sure DS/ORing will stick. Getting REB/Pryo totally defeats that purpose, it's a waste of slot. Which Miracle novice would play Entreat on his own turn, knowing it's a mirror match, to give his mirror opponent a chance to play DS?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm pretty sure that energy field just dies when RIP dies as RIP's effect is a Static effect, and stops effecting the game the moment it leaves play, before it hits the yard. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how it's been explained to me.

-ABC

[Aetherick]

I'm pretty sure that energy field just dies when RIP dies as RIP's effect is a Static effect, and stops effecting the game the moment it leaves play, before it hits the yard. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how it's been explained to me.

-ABC

Rest in Peace exiles itself when it dies:

10/1/2012 If Rest in Peace is destroyed by a spell, Rest in Peace will be exiled and then the spell will be put into its owner's graveyard.

So no, energy field will not be sacrificed because your rest in peace explodes

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I hate bad, low-level judges. Hate them.

-ABC

[Dzra]

Yeah, if you're ever unsure, just ask them to find it in the comprehensive rules. Most usually will. Likewise, if you already know that you're right, you can show them where to look in the rules. At bigger events, this won't usually be a problem.

[thecrav]

I hate bad, low-level judges. Hate them.

-ABC

This isn't a low level judge problem, it's a bad judge problem. Plz don't hate.

[YamiJoey]

I play a 1-of Needle in my board with either 1 or 2 Tutors in my 74, and I've loved it. Since I've been trying Tutorless builds I've wanted it less and less.

[KZhang]

Can anyone who plays mtgo help me with something regarding Sensei Divining Top?

how can i set it such that when i activate top's ability, it allows me to response to it?

Thanks!

[dsck]

Can anyone who plays mtgo help me with something regarding Sensei Divining Top?

how can i set it such that when i activate top's ability, it allows me to response to it?

Thanks!

I think you have to hold left control to keep priority?