Smiter is more than a real thing, it's plain fucking dumb against UWr Delver/RUG, solves the issue of having no beef against an active Rest in Peace, and totally bones opposing Liliana/random discard slots. I've REALLY been enjoying it.
-Matt
I have to say that I also REALLY enjoyed the Smiter. Matt and I have talked about that card a lot - sometimes it's just a 4/4 body that frustrates your opponents, other times it swings a game all by itself (Liliana, Hymns, walks right through a Daze, ignores Counterbalance, etc.) and becomes a major threat. Other times it can also eat an Abrupt that would have killed a Knight, a Goyf, or an Ooze.Originally Posted by sdematt
Try it, it's some good stuff. It's not the most amazing card ever, but it does enough cute things that I enjoyed running it vs. many of the current meta decks.
"We are at home in our games because it is the only place we know just what we are supposed to do."
-Camus
If you see me while playing legacy in the Seattle area, feel free to say hi! :)
Would you ever consider going up to 4?
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
If I could discard it off my own Liliana, yes. If you see lots of RIP Miracles in your format, yes. If you cut many of the other 3 drops that you're running and this is the only one, yes.
My build is currently VERY 3 drop heavy. Knight, Smiter, Liliana. Boo.
-Matt
droping our own smiter from our liliana would be pure "madness" :D would be way to strong.... in that case smiters price would skyrocket in an instant :P
either way, it appears smiter could be really the way to go now... only thing that disturbs me is that he is of no use against combo, not like knight was.... she could at least fetch our karakas to deal with show and telled fatties
it probably will come down to a meta-decission if running more smiter or more knights... still, i really love knight for its flexibility
therefore i was thinking of cutting my knightcount down to 1 as a GSZ target, and using 3 smiters maindeck, with a 2nd knight in the board for the combomatchups (show and tell bases)
gladly in my list i do not really have to run lingering souls to supplement cabal therapy thanks to the 2nd dryad arbor i play instead of maze of ith.... and i am really happy with that, cabal therapy is way stronger than hymn in my believe, but uncomparably more difficult to play
one thing i am sure of is that i will keep running GSZ over stoneforge mystic (even if stoneforge is easier to play and has more immideate impact on the field)
IMO GSZ supplements our basic strategy better than SFM, because basically we are as often was mentioned a Tempo/Control deck, and GSZ is more of a tempoapproach than SFM which is more of a midrange approach...... our gameplan in general probably depends highly on this choice between the 2 packages
i think thats the reason why SFM-List cut goyf.... in a GSZ shell i could not immagine doing so
enough talk.... now i propose/present you my list (still only in my mind as i got allmost no time playing at the moment, and had no time getting smiters)
23 lands (3 wasteland, 1 karakas, 2 dryad arbor, 1 horizon canopy, 8 fetch, 3 basics, 5 duals)
4 DRS
4 Bob
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavanging Ooze
3 loxodon smiter
1-2 knight of the reliquary
0-1 sylvan safekeeper
3-4 swords to plowshares
3-4 abrupt decay
2 liliana of the veil
2-3 sylvan library /sensei's divining top (or even a split)
3-4 thoughtseize
3 cabal therapy
3 GSZ
0-2 lingering souls
Sideboard proposal
2 gaddock teeg
2-3 Thalia /ethersworn canonist / tidehollow sculler
2 deed
3 extraction (extirpate /surgical)
0-1 knight of the reliquary
2 golgari charm
1 life from the loam
0-2 lingering souls
0-2 umezawa' jitte
want to hear everyones opinion
thanks in advance
EDIT: i also believe the GSZ-shell can support more 3-CMC spells than the SFM-shell, due to its ramping ability
Hi guys!
Since you are looking at Loxodon Smiter as another beatstick, we can abuse its "discard" by using Chain of Smog.
Use Chain of Smog on opponent, most likely they will "copy" it, and when they copy it, they own the copy so you can "discard" Loxodon Smiter and put in into the battlefield.
Is my understanding correct?
I want to try it but I'm not sure because it competes with the staple discard spells..
Thanks!
Someone please play chain of smog, if they copy it and you drop 2 smiters I would just walk away from the table.
This could be the greatest mind game in the history of magic!
Doesn't everyone just go into top deck mode after it resolves though? With the choice in your opponents hands I think you are better off playing traditional discard.... But I would love for this to work! Most players would just discard their two worst cards and move on, with any possibility of you dropping a smiter and copying the spell back would just mean people would not play along.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
Anybody have much experience vs patriot delver? I keep getting creamed by that deck.
chain of smog would be hilarous
actually thats kind of a cute idea, because there is not only smiter to chain them into the battlefield ... there is also obstinate baloth
might be an idea to look into
4 chain of smog
4 smiter
4 obstinate baloth
additionally lingering souls and cabal therapys, so the chain of the smog would hurt us way less then our opponents
maybe some loam to get lands back and some manlands
uhh this is intriguing
both players may get into topdeck mode but we got business this way
would be way to funny
EDIT: allmost any liliana activition from our opponent would give us a beatstick, and any random discard (hymn) might as well..... actually i kind of like this idea
I have been having success trading discard for removal and just playing our bigger creatures game one. In g1 they have no real answer for goyf/knight aside from swords and the only thing that stops a Lilliana is delver/bolt.
It is going to play just like RUG so it will always be a tough matchup. If you can stabilize you can win. Smiter is gold in the matchup as he cannot be countered or bolted a she does not care about graveyards.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
You just have to sort of keep it rolling. Always remember that their deck will eventually lose to yours unless they god-hand you. Your creatures are bigger, your removal is better, and The Rock rarely cares about tempo strategies. There's a reason RUG Delver is basically our best matchup. By a lot. It's like RUG Delver and UW Miracles, and UWR delver is a little bit harder because they have plow, but you still just have massive dudes.
This confuses me, RUG Delver is never a tough matchup outside of their unbeatable god-hands. Every single card in The Rock is designed to destroy them:
Deathrite keeps their GY small, mana fixes, and deals damage / gains life, reduces the impact of wastelands and stifles.
Dark Confidant lets you grind them out.
Knight completely destroys their deck, he's nigh unbeatable if he resolves
Goyf stops their ground offense entirely, allowing you to focus removal only on delvers, because they legit can't get past this card.
Lingering Souls stops delvers and chumps for days
Liliana destroys the deck
Abrupt Decay is -wildly- effective against the deck allowing you to kill everything uncontested and Mongeese can't break your front line
Golgari Charm is good against them..
Wasteland is surprisingly good against them and Knight tutors it
Smiter, a card I'm rapidly enjoying more and more, is very, very strong against them, getting past their counter-magic and being outside of bolt range, stops Mongoose and trades with slightly shrunken goyfs.
RUG Delvers worst matchups, close to unwinnable, are Maverick and The Rock. My own personal experience reflects this as well, I spent a solid 6 hours or so of playtesting against an experienced RUG Delver pilot, and outside of highly abusive hands the matchup isn't close for them.
Do I need to send you Smiters too? :P
-Matt
So I played against Jund last night and had a bad time due to not drawing lands of 4 Bob flips and 4 Sylan triggers, but Smiter was a house. Liliana +1s turned the game around for me, until I obviously lost to not drawing lands and her having the triple Decay triple Wasteland hand.
I'll post more later.
-Matt
hahahaa..... thx, that was a good laugh
no not really... once i get the time to play again, i will get them myself
but the more i think about them the more they seem the way to go now..... sad for my playset of knights that will not see much play anymore once i get smiters
look foreward to your post
Sorry, posting at work in between orders sometimes you lose the intended message. Playing rwu delver is like playing rug, eventually they will run out of gas and once you stabilize... You win. In my opinion RUG/thresh is the best deck in legacy. Having a good match up against it and it being a tough game are two completely different things. Tap your mana wrong, walk the wrong land into a wasteland... And you lose.
The same is true against uwr, except they have a 4 damage flying angel to help push through the last points of damage....in addition to a 4/4 life linked vigilante holding down the fort back home. As the game goes longer you will start to pull ahead but cantrips will find the double bolt finishing move soon enough. Especially with Bob and thoughtsieze. Drop to 10 and you better have a way to kill a Geist or block an angel because you will lose. Especially with grim lavamancer controlling the little dudes and RIP nerfing the yard.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
So, first post in this thread. I'm headed to SCG LA this weekend and am currently planning on slinging the rock. I had a few questions on specific card choices.
I am currently running a 1/1 split between Top and Library, is the synergy between Top and Bob worth dropping the Library for another Top?
I like the Souls + Therapy package. The synergy between them and Liliana is great and the souls also carry Jitte quite well. I'm also slightly hesitant to run Hymn because I don't have any more scrublands, so I'm worried about color screwing myself. Does the card advantage Hymn provides outweigh these worries?
Speaking of color screwing, is Volrath's Stronghold just bad? I loved it in Nic-Fit, but I'm completely open to switching it with anything else.
Would a third Tarmogoyf be better than anything in my current list? I feel weird not just jamming 4 in a green deck..
Has anyone considered or tested Bitterblossom? The dudes feed Therapy's, carry swords, chump.. Seems like an alternative to Souls.
Anyway, here's the list.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Loxodon Smiter
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Lingering Souls
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Scrubland
2 Savannah
3 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
SB
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Garruck Relentless
2 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Choke
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 ? Undecided so far.
Picklock
some of your questions were answered in a post of mine on this very same page
top/library: most of the time library is straight up better because not in every matchup your lifepoints will be needed and you can draw of library but top can search your "top" during your turn and your opponents..... it probably depends on playstyle to.... i engoyed both, hence choose the one you are more comfortable with, both need expierience, but the split is also fine of course if thats what you liked the most
PS: librarys synergy with batterskull is sick
therapy vs. hymn: again a matter of preference, but if you say you are quite happy with souls + therapy run it.... i think it is better then hymn.... hymn ins just less skill-intensive to play. Your worries about not having enough scrublands to play hymn actually have a point,... in your case it is probably way better running therapy.... i would not like it that much to lose my only scrubland to a wasteland, just because i wanted to play that hymn on turn 2 and lose the game because of it
Volrath's stronghold: you answered your question almost yourself, you just have to compare the creatures in Nic Fit and The Rock. Nic fit works a lot with CIP / ETB effects making stronghold an effective choice, in our case its not, besides stronghold is slow, consumes quite a bit of mana, and the value you get out of it is not worth it IMO... i would make the stronghold a karakas. karakas is probably the best land ever against fatties from reanimator, show and tell
Tarmogoyf + Ooze: i see that you are running a SFM-shell, hence IMO you could cut all the tarmogoyfs if you want... IMO GSZ-Package and SFM-Package decide which gameplan the deck is more focused on (tempo/control.... because the rock is sort of a mixture of both).
the stoneforge package is more on the control side, hence you are not forced to run goyf at all if you do not want.
on the ooze (you're running 2)..... when runninga SFM list you cling to more white mana then green, therefore its effectiveness is quite reduced, if its a hatecard for your meta its fine running 2 of them even main IMO, otherwise these slots might share the same fate as goyf slot IMO
possible options for these slot: more cabal therapy, more lingering souls, more smiter, knight of the reliquary, more top/library..... take your pick
PS: the number of tarmogoyf and ooze is a bit difficult to find out which way it is best in a non-GSZ version, i would probably go with 0 goyf 2 ooze, depending if your meta asks for ooze, and use the goyf slots for something else, probably for a library + either lingering souls / smiter /knight your choice
Bitterblossom: It has been tested a few times but actually souls is better, does not cost life, gives more dudes and immideately. bitterblossom actually is a horrific good card IMO i would find it really cool if someone was able to get a list up, that is able to get success as well. Bitterblossom is very slow though. still in this deck souls is probably better
for the sideboard:
allways 2 gaddock teeg.... specially if you are not running GSZ 2 is minimum
hope i could help
I'm not saying people who are still on the Top train need to be taken out, but let's say this again.I am currently running a 1/1 split between Top and Library, is the synergy between Top and Bob worth dropping the Library for another Top?
Sylvan Library is leaps and bounds BETTER in this deck than Top is, whether it's a deck with Confidant or one without. This is not Miracles. Top doesn't let you draw more cards and stay in play. Sylvan does.
I've lost less than 10% of the games where I drop Sylvan and it survives. I have a much higher loss ratio with Top. With top, you can't take 8 and draw 3 cards and crush your opponent. Top uses up critical mana in the early game while you spin. Top drawing and recasting leads to the possibility of being countered or shuffled away.
Play more Sylvan Library. You'll love it, I guarantee it /Men'sWarehouse.
If you're not running Zenith, running more gGyfs is never a bad idea. He's the biggest dude in the format, but since you're running double Ooze, you could also run no Goyfs and be almost impervious to Rest in Peace.
My suggestion:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Loxodon Smiter
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sylvan Library
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Lingering Souls
17
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Scrubland
2 Savannah
3 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas (Sneak is popular)
23
If you had to cut down to 60 cards, cut a Wasteland since you're on the 4 basic lands plan. My suggested board for LA, considering it's Combo heaven:
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Ethersworn Canonist (For Storm and Elves. If you wanted more Sneak and Show hate, run more Needles, Ensnaring Bridge, or something else)
2 Nihil Spellbomb/Surgical Extraction (For tin Fins/Dredge, if not your cup of tea, run extra removal like Path to Exile for the fair matchups, etc.)
-Matt
hahaha.... allmost the same suggestions :D
I am doing some testing with unexpected absence in a more white centric build and have been pleasantly suprizes. The card is great in a format with fetchlands against any opponent and is a good "counter spell" against removal on our guys.
Lilliana is hard to fit in with a more white centric mana base, vindicate might just be a better card and we don't play that,for the most part, but it is instant speed and has more applications....
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
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