Miracle Control

[Water_Wizard]

Can anyone who plays mtgo help me with something regarding Sensei Divining Top?

how can i set it such that when i activate top's ability, it allows me to response to it?

Thanks!

You have to hold CTRL the whole time you are using the top. Press CTRL and it allows you to keep priority. If you are playing on a Mac (with VWMare, Boot Camp, Parallels, etc.) it is a different key combo - I believe that it is CTRL + Window, but you have to hold control first.

You hold CTRL anytime that you want to maintain priority. Other examples include Dazing your own spell (to bounce a land or build Threshold) or cracking an LED in response to Infernal Tutor, etc.

[Rook1e]

Hi guys.

I haven't played my Miracles deck for a while, but i'm considering picking it up again.

I just have some questions:

How is Moat performing? Is it worth the investment?

I've been following Joe Lossett's streams for a while (on and off) and keep my list somewhat updated based on his list. But i would really like to find place to the 4th Swords to Plowshares

For reference, this is my list:

Land (23)
1x Arid Mesa
4x Flooded Strand
4x Island
2x Karakas
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Mystic Gate
2x Plains
3x Scalding Tarn
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island

Enchantment (5)
4x Counterbalance
1x Rest in Peace

Artifact (4)
4x Sensei's Divining Top

Instant (15)
4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
1x Flusterstorm
3x Force of Will
1x Misdirection
2x Spell Pierce
3x Swords to Plowshares

Sorcery (6)
2x Entreat the Angels
1x Supreme Verdict
3x Terminus

Creature (4)
3x Vendilion Clique
1x Venser, Shaper Savant

Planeswalker (3)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard (15)
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Flusterstorm
2x Misdirection
1x Pithing Needle
1x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Rest in Peace
1x Sulfur Elemental
1x Terminus
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Wear / Tear

Feel free to come with suggestions :)

/Rook

So i decided to take my Miracles out for a spin at a small local Legacy tourney yesterday. And it (or me) failed miserably.

The only changes i made to the list was -1 Tundra +1 Mystic Gate.

I went 1-4 - and yes, my only victory was a bye -_-

First round i lost 0-2 to Merfolk.
Second round i lost 1-2 to Pox
Third round i lost 1-2 to T.E.S
Fourth round was the bye
Fifth round i lost 0-2 to UWR Delver/Stoneblade

I'm so frustrated with this deck, which also was the reason a put it aside for a couple of months or so. It just feels like that unless you get Top+Balance down early you are loosing and just curdling around and hoping to counter whatever threat they cast - and if you can't (either because you don't have any counters or they can counter back) you just flat-out lose :S

AAARGGHHH

[KZhang]

I think you have to hold left control to keep priority?

You have to hold CTRL the whole time you are using the top. Press CTRL and it allows you to keep priority. If you are playing on a Mac (with VWMare, Boot Camp, Parallels, etc.) it is a different key combo - I believe that it is CTRL + Window, but you have to hold control first.

You hold CTRL anytime that you want to maintain priority. Other examples include Dazing your own spell (to bounce a land or build Threshold) or cracking an LED in response to Infernal Tutor, etc.

Thanks guys! Works great!

[YamiJoey]

So i decided to take my Miracles out for a spin at a small local Legacy tourney yesterday. And it (or me) failed miserably.

The only changes i made to the list was -1 Tundra +1 Mystic Gate.

I went 1-4 - and yes, my only victory was a bye -_-

First round i lost 0-2 to Merfolk.
Second round i lost 1-2 to Pox
Third round i lost 1-2 to T.E.S
Fourth round was the bye
Fifth round i lost 0-2 to UWR Delver/Stoneblade

I'm so frustrated with this deck, which also was the reason a put it aside for a couple of months or so. It just feels like that unless you get Top+Balance down early you are loosing and just curdling around and hoping to counter whatever threat they cast - and if you can't (either because you don't have any counters or they can counter back) you just flat-out lose :S

AAARGGHHH

Miracles is a deck that - generally - if you're better than your opponent and they don't just nut draw you (Belcher/TES T1ing you, or a T1 Chalice into support) you should win your games. Merfolk should be a cake-walk, Pox isn't even a deck, and X-Blade is a joke.

You need to practise with the deck a lot more. I lost to a UWR Modern Control deck when I started playing the deck. A week later a T8'd my local Legacy event. (Not the greatest accomplishment. I cast a T4 Jace and passed without using its ability, then cast two 1-drop Spells into a Chalice on 1 AND STILL WON.) You need to work out the intricacies of the deck. What the top of your deck needs to look like, and what kinds of numbers you want on top for your CB against the various decks. It's as difficult to master as something like TES/ANT, if not harder, as the games will generally be long, so you'll have many more decisions to make that won't mean anything for many more turns.

[ivanpei]

Your list has too little bombs. You run too many 1 for 1s. I also dislike the maindeck cliques and venser. They're good against show and tell but bad against value mid range decks. I would advise playing 3 Snapcasters and an Elspeth instead. The single rip should be the 4th swords. Snapcasters generate actual card advantage compared to clique. Elspeth is just an additional bomb to increase the bomb count.

Think wafao-tapo style bomb density. Also this deck is one of the hardest to play in legacy. You have to remember everything on top of your library. It's difficult at first but can mean a win or loss. Snapcaster is also critical as extra brainstorms to stack your top of library expecially with miracles and counterbalance. Snapcaster is great as the elusive 2cc card that makes your counterbalance more effective.

Cliques are still good in the combo mu, but I'd put them in the board.

[supachai]

So i decided to take my Miracles out for a spin at a small local Legacy tourney yesterday. And it (or me) failed miserably.

The only changes i made to the list was -1 Tundra +1 Mystic Gate.

I went 1-4 - and yes, my only victory was a bye -_-

First round i lost 0-2 to Merfolk.
Second round i lost 1-2 to Pox
Third round i lost 1-2 to T.E.S
Fourth round was the bye
Fifth round i lost 0-2 to UWR Delver/Stoneblade

I'm so frustrated with this deck, which also was the reason a put it aside for a couple of months or so. It just feels like that unless you get Top+Balance down early you are loosing and just curdling around and hoping to counter whatever threat they cast - and if you can't (either because you don't have any counters or they can counter back) you just flat-out lose :S

AAARGGHHH

Your frustration is understandable. Miracles is NOT an easy deck to play. If you are inexperienced with the deck (which includes knowing your matchups, sideboarding, general gameplan), or if you are not playing as tight as possible, you will not do well. Miracles is a deck that has no free wins. You can't just play whatever you feel like in your hand and eventually hope to get there (unlike say, Sneak Show). Each turn has multiple lines of play that you must think carefully about. How will this affect your current turn? The next turn? The turn after that? Instead of just trying to counter everything, think about what actually needs to be countered (can you deal with it with something else? can you deal with it using cards that you draw eventually? can you let it resolve and live with the effects for a couple turns?). Miracles is a deck where a lot of small plays each give you a little value, and you have to make the most of them. Knowing when to Clique, when to Brainstorm, when to Top (and how to rearrange), when to fetch, when to play around Daze/Pierce, when to cast your Jace, etc. These all seem like small plays but they all add up and separate a good Miracles player from an average one.

That said, Merfolk is very hard matchup in my experience. Pox I don't have much experience with. Delver and TES should be very manageable though. If you gave some more specific reasons as to why you lost, perhaps we can help you out more. Lossett's deck is tried and true. You should certainly be able to do well with it. Perhaps the way the deck plays might not be suitable for your playstyle though, and that's understandable as well.

[YamiJoey]

Considering Joe Losett T8'd the Legacy Invi with 3/1 Clique/Venser, I'd have to disagree with ivanpei's post. The list looks mostly fine. Some choices I disagree with, but I wouldn't read too much into it, as it's just the way I play the deck. I generally assume my opponents can start paying for Spell Pierces, so I tend to not play many of them, and I almost never main them without Snapcaster Mage, but as I said it's also about how we play the deck.

Also I've never played against a Merfolk player, so if Supachai says it's a rough MU trust them over what I said.

[Goin Aggro]

Considering Joe Losett T8'd the Legacy Invi with 3/1 Clique/Venser, I'd have to disagree with ivanpei's post. The list looks mostly fine. Some choices I disagree with, but I wouldn't read too much into it, as it's just the way I play the deck. I generally assume my opponents can start paying for Spell Pierces, so I tend to not play many of them, and I almost never main them without Snapcaster Mage, but as I said it's also about how we play the deck.

Also I've never played against a Merfolk player, so if Supachai says it's a rough MU trust them over what I said.

Lossett is also probably one of the best miracles players in the world. He's finely tuned the deck to his playstyle and meta and knows how to use and abuse the one for ones.

When you're just picking up the deck, you probably want more brute advantage cards in the deck versus the playskill cards.

[YamiJoey]

Lossett is also probably one of the best miracles players in the world. He's finely tuned the deck to his playstyle and meta and knows how to use and abuse the one for ones.

When you're just picking up the deck, you probably want more brute advantage cards in the deck versus the playskill cards.

Whilst I agree, it comes down to the same thing as using Elvish Archdruid in Elves. The deck doesn't need it. Play better and you'll win with good builds, using crutches just makes you play badly because you can lean on certain cards.

That's how I've found it, anyway.

[Rook1e]

Let me just respond to some of the claims put forward:

First of all my familiarity with Miracles/Play skill:

Well, although i don't perceive myself as a fantastic magic player i have played my share of matches. I played Miracles for 4 months straight before putting it to the side for 2 months. I know i don't have Lossett-like skill with the deck, I still consider myself somewhat well rounded with the deck.

The list i played:

As some people mentioned, this is more or less the list Joe Lossett has tuned over several months, and though it probably could be tweaked a bit to match my meta better, it's a pretty solid list and should perform thereafter.

Heres very short description of my matches from thursday. It is not in any way thorough as i didn't take any notes or planned on giving a report. But here it goes:

First Round vs. Merfolk - 0-2

G1: It seems he just have it all, counters, lords, a vial and even a standstill. I never see a StP or Terminus - i'm crushed.
G2: I get stuck on to lands for the entire game, but manage to set up two consecutive Terminus - which he just overcomes and kills me.


Second Round vs. Pox - 1-2

G1: I manage to get out a Top and 2 Jace throughout the game, but didn't see any StP to take care of his Factories. Game goes on for some time and he finally grinds me out as i just find lands upon lands.
G2: I get out Balance+Top in T3 and finish him off with a 'Clique lock' (clique+karakas)
G3: He gets a T1 Liliana and +1 her, i needle it on my turn an manage to misdirect a LD spell. He's on 2 lands and a needle'ed Lily and i have Top+Balance - neither of us has any cards in hands. He then top decks his 1-off Tombstalker and rides it to victory - once again i never saw a StP or Terminus even though i Top'ed and fetched several times.

Third Round vs T.E.S 1-2

G1: He makes 16 Goblins on T1 on the play - i desperately try to find a terminus through 2 Brainstorms and 2 Fetches - none. I lose.
G2: I manage to counter his early plays and 'lock' him down with a Clique+Karakas.
G3: He makes 14 Goblins on T1 again. I have every counter imaginable - except Force. Didn't find a Terminus here either.

Fourth Round - Bye

Fifth Round vs. UWR Delver 0-2

Can really remember this match as I only stayed and played it out because of heavy rain outside. I manage to lose a both games even though my opponent makes several huge mistakes. I'm really bummed out because of the previous matches and doesn't have my head in the game - doesn't help I don't really se any action.


Here are my thoughts on the list:

Though i really like the main deck RIP, i'm not sure it is necessary and i'm considering dropping it for the 4th StP. I'm also considering going down to 3 Counterbalance and adding in the 4th FOW. What do you think of these changes?

The Supreme Verdict is going the be a Moat from next week - i'm very excited about this!

I've played with Snapcaster in Miracles before, and hated it. I'm liking the Clique/Venser build for now.


Did i forget to address anything or points?

[ivanpei]

Sounds like a ton of badluck. Bad days happen. By playing Cliques over snapcasters you are basically + Combo MU, - Mid Range MU. Neither one is better than the other, just depends on preference and meta. However like it was mentioned above, sometimes when you don't have the playskill to convert those 50/50 matchups into wins ala Reid Duke style, you have to skew your deck one way or the other.

In that meta you mentioned above, Snapcasters would have helped against Pox, Merfolk and Patriot as it is a value card. Against TES, since he T1ed you both times, neither Clique nor Snapcaster would have saved you anyway.

[YamiJoey]

I think Snap is a great all-round Creature. It makes your deck better against combo if you're packing Pierces and possibly 'Storm, against Aggro you can FB StP, or just Ambush Viper them with no value. I'd generally rather have a 2/1 Counterspell at 3 than a 3/1 not quite semi-Thoughtseize. The reason I play Clique these days is because I'm playing Moat.

[kiblast]

Snapcaster and Clique play a different role, not just in this deck but in any UWx control shell. You can't really compare them and they don't fight for the same slots. You need to understand first what you need most ( Clique disruption and clock or Snapcaster's redundancy) and choose wisely between the two /split ratio. The bodies are most of the time irrelevant, since they'll attract all of your opponents removals anyways so they won't stick that long. But hey, at least Clique kills Goose and Insectile Aberration. Also, once you established countertop Clique is an effective way to win the game.

I play 2 Snapcasters and 1 Clique and honestly this has been my ratio of choice in most of the UWx control decks I play. Sometimes I find Snapcasters clogging my hand when I play 3-4. Ideally I found myself wanting 2.5. Since I can't play 2.5 Snappies I'll stick with 2.

I have been testing one copy of Moat md and one additional copy of it in sb. I don't really get why you don't discuss more this card when it effectively shuts down entire decks on its own. BGx (Jund, BUG aggro etc..) quitted Pulses for Decays so it's virtually an answerable problem for them; unless they Liliana you. And even in that case they just wasted 5 turns ramping Lili and discarding value cards (whereas we discard nicely under Lili thanks to Top). Against Elves is the nail in the coffin once you Terminus their board position. Against Goblins they have 1 SGC or 1 Sharpshooter/ 1 Skirk Prospector shenanigan to play around it giving you all the time in the world to set up an Entreat for 1k Angels. Against DnT all you have to worry about is Flickerwisp + Equip as they don't play Serra Avenger anymore. Ok against Threshold you'd rather have Verdict since their threat density is extremely low (probably the only deck in the format together with patriot where you'd rather have Verdict instead of Moat), but if you manage to somehow resolve Moat all you have to do is deal with Delver. Another releveant thing is that it stops Merfolk (they don't play Coralhelm anymore) and the new Merfolk Nemesis.

If you decide to play Moat md, Clique is his best friend both because flies over it, and because you can play it eot clearing the way for Moat next turn.

[twndomn]

Against Goblins they have 1 SGC or 1 Sharpshooter/ 1 Skirk Prospector shenanigan to play around it giving you all the time in the world to set up an Entreat for 1k Angels. Against DnT all you have to worry about is Flickerwisp + Equip as they don't play Serra Avenger anymore. Ok against Threshold you'd rather have Verdict since their threat density is extremely low (probably the only deck in the format together with patriot where you'd rather have Verdict instead of Moat), but if you manage to somehow resolve Moat all you have to do is deal with Delver. Another releveant thing is that it stops Merfolk (they don't play Coralhelm anymore) and the new Merfolk Nemesis.
If you decide to play Moat md, Clique is his best friend both because flies over it, and because you can play it eot clearing the way for Moat next turn.

You are overly simplistic in those Vial deck match-ups. Against Vial decks in general, they'll try to waste your double W and Port your White source, that's something you omit, for whatever reasons. Even if you do manage to get to 4 Mana and slam down Moat, you have probably taken some damages already. In that case, Goblins just needs to Seige-gang and Pyrokinesis in the SB to finish you off. You also forget to mention Mangara + Karakas trick, which would remove your Moat forever. Merfolk is THE Vial deck that runs counter magic like FoW and Counterspell, it's not easy to just play your single copy of Moat and hope it'll resolve. Keep in mind a lot of those are off a Cavern or Vial, makes your counter useless.

[Aetherick]

You are overly simplistic in those Vial deck match-ups. Against Vial decks in general, they'll try to waste your double W and Port your White source, that's something you omit, for whatever reasons. Even if you do manage to get to 4 Mana and slam down Moat, you have probably taken some damages already. In that case, Goblins just needs to Seige-gang and Pyrokinesis in the SB to finish you off. You also forget to mention Mangara + Karakas trick, which would remove your Moat forever. Merfolk is THE Vial deck that runs counter magic like FoW and Counterspell, it's not easy to just play your single copy of Moat and hope it'll resolve. Keep in mind a lot of those are off a Cavern or Vial, makes your counter useless.

Good thing pyrokinesis can't hit players.

Just because something can be removed doesn't mean it's unplayable. The thing is, moat buys you a lot of time in any aggro or midrange strategy so you can safely find entreat and kill them, whereas a wrath might not be enough (especially in goblins). I don't play moat myself, but it definitely has merit.

Edit: spelling

[Einherjer]

Miracles is making a strong showing at both BoM and Eternal Weekend on the stream. All Versions were the legendary ones. No Snapcaster or RIP-one sighted yet.

Greetings

[Dzra]

Miracles is making a strong showing at both BoM and Eternal Weekend on the stream. All Versions were the legendary ones. No Snapcaster or RIP-one sighted yet.

Can you link to the deck lists? I have trouble navigating their website. <3 Also, is True-Name Nemesis making any sort of showing?

[Einherjer]

Neither decklists are online yet, but Nemesis made quite some impact on the tournament being held on Friday at BoM - the French Cup/Championship-something - I can hand you those decklists:

http://www.lotusnoir.info/bom-2013-d...p8-cdf-legacy/

Greetings

[Dzra]

Thanks and scary. The BUG list looks like it basically just took a BUG Delver list and jammed in some Nemesis. I think the SFM lists are pretty scary also. The Miracles list looks fairly standard. The Mountain in the SB is somewhat weird, but I've seen that now and again.

[Einherjer]

Yeah my most recent Miracles is also featuring it in the SB. Simply due to the fact, that you now want to bring in all REBs you got vs Tempo - which you can't do with Volcanic Islands only.

Greetings