I fucking hate Geist against anything other than Combo decks without creatures (Storm, SnT, etc) and Miracle control. Geist is so awful when they have blockers. Put Geist in the sideboard and put TNNs in the main.
A UWR list has top 4'd the Bazaar of Moxen:
4. Taylor, Stuart
Patriots
1 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ponder
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Wear / Tear
The deck looks very streamlined but completely eschews the Stoneforge package for more plows and added snapcasters. What do you guys think? Stoneforge or not? I feel like Stoneforge gives you a lot of free wins when unanswered--or maybe it's win more?
If this deck is trying to go the tempo route, no SFM. If it's going for a mid-range plan, it should play the SFM.
Whenever I play UWR Delver, I always think of Stoneforge Mystic as a card that I just sandbag and only use when the tempo gameplan fails. It doesn't fit a tempo deck at all, but it does bring up the tribal matchup and give this deck a pretty good lategame trump. I think it is worth devoting five slots (3 SFM, 2 equipment) to, even if drawing the equipment is awkward as hell (twice as bad when you're trying to flip Delver of Secrets).
If you are on the torch everything and swing tempo plan, geist is still better. 6 damage is alot more than 3 damage. If you are running a more midrange plan with Sfm, it's arguable if TNN should take the Geist slots.
Played UWR Delver to a 5 : 0 : 1 finish at BoM 9 Trial Paris winning a FBB Volcanic Island + 2 byes.
List was the following:
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Wear // Tear
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Force of Will
MU's:
Sneak Show 2:1
Nic Fit 2:0
Death Shadow/ Berserk: 2:0
Miracles 1:1
BUG 2:1
Vial Maverick 2:0
Boarded out the 4rd Stoneforge nearly every match, other than that the deck felt very solid.
Originally Posted by zerzab11
Played UWR Delver to a 5 : 0 : 1 finish at BoM 9 Trial Paris winning a FBB Volcanic Island + 2 byes.
List was the following:
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Wear // Tear
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Force of Will
MU's:
Sneak Show 2:1
Nic Fit 2:0
Death Shadow/ Berserk: 2:0
Miracles 1:1
BUG 2:1
Vial Maverick 2:0
Boarded out the 4rd Stoneforge nearly every match, other than that the deck felt very solid.
How did True Name Nemesis feel?
Legacy Decks:
UWR Delver
Imperial Painter
Burn
Manaless Dredge
I like this list better. SFM had a tendency to stall, as well as Geist. 3 Mana available is tough with tempo cards.
Losing SFM, you lose jitte and batterskull.
You don't need jitte because they deck already has so much removal. add snaps and recycle that removal.
Batterskull, a lot of the time turn 2 mystic is a dead mystic so batterskull gets stuck in your hand. Play a more aggressive game. and theres a reduced need to "stabilise"
that's what it looks like to me.
You sound like a therapist.
A couple of articles in the last couple of days that you all might find interesting
http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...in-uwr-delver/
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...to-Legacy.html
Both of them think Stifle doesn't work in the deck. I'm not sure if they're right, I like it a lot, but what do you all think.
Hey guys, I Top 8'd SCG LA with UWR Delver: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=60409
I was going to be on OmniTell for the weekend but I decided to switch to UWR Delver a couple days before. I debated the inclusion of Stifle (if I didn't run it, my list would have been +1 Gitaxian Probe +1 Daze +1 Spell Pierce) but ultimately decided to run with it because of my experience of playing with Stifle in RUG Delver. It did work out, considering I played against 2 Belcher decks and 1 Oops All Spells, and Stifle was the one card they could not manage to beat. Otherwise, it was a lot more medicore than it was in RUG Delver.
Here was my round breakdown:
Round 1 - Jund - 2-1
Round 2 - Mono Blue Tempo - 2-0
Round 3 - Oops All Spells - 2-1
Round 4 - High Tide - 1-2
Round 5 - RUG Delver - 2-0
Round 6 - Belcher - 2-0
Round 7 - Belcher - 2-1
Round 8 - RUG Delver - 2-1
Round 9 - RUG Delver - 2-1
Top 8 - Esper True-Blade - 0-2
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GP Denver 2013 Top 64
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How often did you board in the TNN? How do you feel, after the event, with running Geist over them?
Hey guys, Im Stu (the pilot of this thing :)). If anyone has any questions about the list, or anything like that, PM me or ask me on here. But some thoughts for discussion :) - bear in mind I dont really see myself as some legacy expert, its just that I managed to get the time to put in some serious testing for this list, and all the practice with it payed off).
Im really super happy with the main. The only point I think is that it would have been great to play the 4th ponder. If so, I would prob have cut the 4th swords to plow, or the 3rd spell pierce. But I was expecting some combo, and Im never really sad to have extra removal, so I just had to make the choice.
I think the deck is really back to the real aim of this archetype - to make the Geist connect. So it needs lots of removal and disruption to let you either land the geist fairly empty board, or to make an early delver and try to get it done with tempo. Usually you have to decide if geist is the plan, or if delver/lavaman is the plan and decide it quite early depending on your hand so you can brainstorm/waste effectively. I think it almost feels like Next Level Thresh rather than RUG or midrange, just with a lower curve and a more in your face plan...
I know this runs quite counter to the more mid-rangey build that most people seem to be on these days. The main reason for me choosing this style of list is I really hate playing midrange. And I like blowing things up... So I think stoneforge and nemesis go into 'that' deck, but that wasnt one I was keen to play. I almost played 2 stoneforge 1 jitte over 2 snappys/1 swords to plow, or even a bigger package, but I really hated the way they played out. Interestingly, I saw 4 nemesis over 2 days. I countered 2 and 1 was irrelevant by the time it landed and 1 killed me. So its not so problematic, I think... (as long as you remember it exists as a card :)).
The only problem with the snapcasters was the sideboard plan against BUG/tempo decks, where you want to board in RiP(s) but you have a lot of cards that need graveyards yourself... So I usually boarded out grims/snappys and brought in cliques, meddling mages (on abrupt decay more often than not - but mainly just for more guys) and mixed up my spell pierce/daze ratio on the play and draw. Clique is amazing vs lilly too :). Mana denial is very definitely the plan though. I even won a game vs BUG on a mull to 4 (sorry Gunner, you were a lovely opponent! :)) with this plan.
On the sideboard- The EEs were good, but maybe just 1 is better, with maybe +1 wear/tear (im paranoid about batterskull, but maybe its too many...)
On the whole, having a slighty lower curve was better for the mirror. It was also good that everyone boarded in artefact hate against me :D. My losses were to the mirror (ironically, after what I just said XD), to elves (played by the winner) and er.... something else. As well as death and taxes at the end (kept a risky one that didnt work out game 3... :/).
If anyone wants to have a more in depth look (shameless plug), then I do a podcast called the 'legacy breakfast' on iTunes (also on legacybreakfast.wordpress.com) where we did some live in between rounds stuff (yet to go up) and a real deep look at the expected meta and our card choices :).
But honestly, keep the tempo dream alive. And by tempo dream, I mean snapcaster ---> stifle XD. I would honestly play a different deck to go midrange, but this is an amazing tempo shell that I think is the best at the moment. (And stifle is 60% of why I play legacy, so I could never cut it, but in my deck it works wonders I think. And if the deck is firing well, they cant really play around it. So punish them for their stupid 4 colour manabase/deathrite activation/deed/ancestral visions/wastes/drawing off glimpse/mom protect/everything else XD).
Well I hope thats handy to someone... Id be happy to answer any questions. I think it also goes to show that you shouldnt quite always netdeck (which I honestly dont mind), but get to know your own playstyle and cards you enjoy playing (because you tend to be more effective with them I think). Even small twists on an archetype can throw people.
Peace for now
The Spanish Tunnel King
PS (in spite of my name, or the reporting on the BoM, I am in fact English :D)
Hey guys, I recently picked up this deck and had a couple questions. I've run into a bit of confusion because I'm having trouble aligning this deck's goals with the functions each card provides. Most importantly is the card Stoneforge Mystic. I understand it has the upside of diversifying the deck's strategy in that it gives access to an alternative mid-game plan, but what I can't figure out is why my deck wants to be doing that. From a theoretical perspective, I really want my game 1 to have an extremely streamlined plan. From what I can gather, with cards like Delver and Daze and Wasteland, my deck wants to focus extensively on choking the opponent's resources while clocking them with a threat (and this is the rather obvious goal of a tempo deck). It's hard to argue that SFM really contributes to this plan, so why am I spending six valuable slots on a card that really dilutes the primary function of my deck? If SFM is necessary, how do my deck's goals get redefined? It almost feels like the inclusion of SFM is a concession that this deck's tempo strategy isn't powerful enough (otherwise I'd be playing other tempo-oriented cards over SFM, right?). If the tempo strategy isn't powerful enough, then why opt to this strategy? Or is it the combination of the tempo strategy and SFM that makes this deck so powerful? If that combination is what this deck is about, then does my expected game plan require me to finish with Batterskull hitting the board? And finally, am I playing SFM because I have no better alternative options? I know there's been mention of Young Pyromancer, but testing seems to split half and half.
As I was reading the thread from start to end, I realized I had a difficult time understanding the philosophy of the deck. Maybe I missed something? I'm mostly interested in understand the logic behind how this deck plays out so that I can make better plays in actual games.
EDIT: I guess a broader question is "What do I want my deck to be doing?" and the whole SFM doesn't really mesh with that. From what I gather, there's the tempo-oriented angle with Delver and crew. There's also the GoST plan. What strategy incorporates SFM?
I was very happy with True-Name Nemesis in the sideboard. Versus combo decks he's useless but I really really wanted to draw him in the RUG Delver/Jund matchups (he won the Jund match for me when I drew him). Geist was worse than I thought since three mana is a lot to spend versus a combo deck during your main phase. I think Clique might be a bit better instead since you can still hold Spell Pierce/Stifle up and still generate a clock and disruption. I chose to run Geist maindeck over TNN specifically because LA is oftentimes a combo-heavy metagame, so I chose to hedge my maindeck against that.
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3 SCG Open Top 8s
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Thanks for the post Stuart!
Could you give a breakdown of your record against the decks you played against? Thanks
Nice reports!
Generally Delver is strong against combo. What sfm does is that it wins your Delver mirror since it gives you a midrange plan. However this messes up your tempo plan against better midrange decks like Jund or bug where you want to be as disruptive as possible.
If you expect to see plenty of Delver and Combo, Sfm Patriot seems like the correct choice because it beats Rug and Combo. However patriots half assed midrange game then suffers against proper midrange and control decks.
I've had an almost exactly opposite assessment. A friend of mine is big on the midrange BGx decks like Jund and BUG and is always hoping to face RUG. He thinks it's heavily in favor of the midrange deck. The SFM package is what improves the midrange matchup compared to RUG, in my experience. Batterskull is very, very strong against those decks. True-Name Nemesis adds another dimension to the deck and a threat against midrange that is next to impossible to answer. I've also personally had trouble against RUG, since Mongoose is so good. You basically need to get Batterskull into play but they have a lot of ways to disrupt that (killing Mystic, Stifle, etc.). True-Name, again, really helps this matchup. It single-handedly won my match against RUG at Legacy Champs this past weekend.
-------------------------
Here's a list I'll be testing, using Owen Turtenwald's list as a starting point:
Creatures (11)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis
Artifacts (2)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
Spells (27)
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Pierce
Lands (20)
9 Fetchlands
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
Sideboard (15)
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Rest in Peace
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Meddling Mage
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Wear / Tear
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
I'm probably super greedy, but in a deck running so many powerful 1cc spells, I feel like Snapcaster should find a home as at least a 2-of. A well-timed Snapcaster -> Stifle, Bolt, StP can just outright win the game sometimes.
You pose a lot of good question. If you look at this deck's evolution, the earlier builds did not include SFM. Then, SFM appeared and was generally accepted. Now, the majority of lists run SFM, although the recent T4 BoM deck did not and you can read that player's reasoning above.
Personally, I resisted the SFM plan for a long time because I found it clunky and that it oftentimes sat in my hand. However, after playing a few matches against RUG Delver, I added SFM, because it creates great value with Batterskull.
In analyzing your questions, you need to analyze your opponents. If you knew that you would be playing more aggressive combo decks all day, you would drop SFM and run Delver and Clique. If you knew that you would be playing control all day, you would run Geist and SFM (and TNN). If you knew that you would be playing against mid-range decks like BUG and Jund, you would probably run Delver/Grim/SFM/Geist/TNN. If you knew that you would be playing against RUG, you would run SFM to find Batterskull. If you knew that you would be playing against tribal (Elves, Goblins and Merfolk), you would run SFM for Jitte and Batterskull.
The decision to run SFM and the question about the deck's strategy depends upon your expected opponents. This deck has a lot of options and tuning the creature package (Delver/Grim/SFM/Geist/Clique/TNN) and the spell-suite (Stifle? Probe? How many STP and Ponder?) depends upon how you want to interact with the match-ups that you will face.
This deck is in flux, with some players preferring more of a tempo role (with Daze and Stifle) and others opting for a mid-range role, with large creatures and equipment combined with more removal and counterspells.
Perhaps with the inclusion of TNN, we will see a dominant version of this deck emerge, like what has happened with RUG (remember, there was a time when RUG ran Snapcaster Mage). Until that time, test and do what feels right.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
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