Oh ok. You want to use Ashiok to exile the Explorer before they draw it. I was confused because you were talking about the distinction between putting it in the graveyard from play or from the library. Also, Nic Fit will usually keep hands with at least one Explorer or a GSZ to find one ;)Originally Posted by Sasan
Yes I don't say that Nicfit will fold to Ashiok but it is a tool to make that hard matchup a bit better. And I am sincerly believing that we have a winning chance against NicFit compared to RUG, Patriot or Team America.
But it doesn't matter if the card is in their library?! Sure you can hit with your Ashiok the Explorer .. but it's as common that they will draw it because you removed 3 cards in their library.. if you don't know its there (and how would you without cheating?) it doesn't matter at all.. The + ability does nothing against explorer (or any other creatures (besides creatures returning to the top of the library like Vengeful Pharaoh or in combination with cards like Submerge)).
The thing is that Ashiok is good versus decks with a great threat density and a good number of high quality creatures. The chances are high that you can steal some useful ones. It does not matter that they draw a good creature because of the mill Ashiok provides as long as their deck is full of good creatures. Ashiok is furthermore better versus brainstorm decks that do not have that much creatures but have creatures as their win condition - aka tempo decks. I agree that Ashiok versus Explorer is just a situational thing and not the first reason to have that planeswalker in our sideboards.
Last edited by Sasan; 12-31-2013 at 12:07 PM.
Why is Ashiok good against Brainstorm decks? Couldn't my opponent just respond to Ashiok's ability with a Brainstorm, putting back two useless cards on top? In this case, Ashiok would actually help me get rid of useless cards (even better than a fetchland, since the bad cards are exiled, not just shuffled in the library to be drawn again).
I can see how Ashiok could be annoying for Miracles though.
Also Ashiok + Submerge seems like a great interaction :)
I used to play Nic Fit extensively. The deck is good against tempo, and Ashiok can't do squat to fight that. The deck's fat creature density is too low to be able to hit with Ashiok reliably. Stifle Explorer triggers instead of fetches, waste on sight and hope you win before they start getting online.
Yup. A bad matchup. But thank God NicFit is not a meta factor :D
Yes they can Brainstorm in response but you can mill every turn. Mathematically they cannot have an answer for that every turn. If you are ahead on the board the pure presence of Ashiok makes it really hard for them to cantrip right and seach for answers. And Ashiok hitting the board *after* the turn the tempo player has used brainstorm/ponder ruins the cantrip assuming that he laid down a draw pattern and game strategy for the next turns.
I must admit, this ashiok discussion is lost on me. I'm having trouble understanding how paying 3 Mana for exile 3, then next turn using the - ability to bring one of creatures into play, and then being able swing with said creature the following turn. Is a good line of play for a tempo deck. I think I rather have Scavenging Ooze or True-Name Nemesis.
So to play Ashiok, you don't deal any damage until the 3rd turn she comes into play.
What am I missing?
Well casting an uncounterable Goyf the first turn after she hit the table for free and a Mongoose/Delver the next turn is really strong.
Situation: You play a first turn Shaman. They drop a first Turn Delver. You play Ashiok on your second turn with Daze backup and mill 3 and exile a Goyf. They flip the Delver on their second turn. You bolt it turn 3, cast Goyf for free with -2 from Ashiok and have two Mana open. You can cast a Mongoose and have one mana open for the opponent's next turn. If he does not have a Bolt and you untap for turn 4 you can start milling again to 4 (out of Bolt range) or take a Delver/Mongoose of available. How can the opponent ever recover from that?
The situation will never be excatly the same in reality. But I wanted to give you an idea how sweet Ashiok is.
I'm on the same page as you are !
Now "opening our minds" it could work a bit as miracle kind of stuff:
Fire covenant (terminus) everything they have on board at their EOT. Next turn drop Ashiok (Jace) and start winning...
Until further testing I'm not sold at all !!! ahahah
I can happily announce that Carsten Linden - our bUrg specialist and tempo guru - has written an article for MTGMadness on how to win the tempo mirror easily. The article will answer some of the questions arising from the use of Ashiok in the tempo mirrors. Once the article goes online I will inform you.
I always encourage all bUrg players to test (may it be Ashiok, Golgari Charm, the lack of Spell Pierces in the blueprint list) and write in the thread. With the testings and the help of you all we could analyze TNN in a record time and are ahead of the rest of the legacy world that packs TNN in every blue deck now before realizing that he is a flop in tempo decks. We must keep up the good work and test. Just the fact that Carsten and I propose you to play a certain list just does not mean that you should follow him or me blindly. Sometimes a dicussion can bring new insights.
A sidenote: As we love rogue tactics we confront you often with unknown or underplayed cards like Fire Covenant, Compost or now Ashiok. It is normal that the first reaction is mixed. But look at Compost: Even RUG Delver players name it as a good way to fight Shardless. Today someone suggested playing Fire Covenant in rg goblins instead of Pyrokinesis'. You see: the bUrg thread is full of innovations :D
Second sidenote: The main application of Ashiok is to steal creatues. Simple as that. The brainstorm effects etc can be ignored as you will always try to cast it as soon as possible and will steadily use - 2 until you hit a good creature. The possible subtle effects versus brainstorm are just situational side effects.
Third and last sidenote: Versus Miracles Ashiok is ok because oft he ultimate and the possibilty to hit a Snapcaster. But if you have better sideboard options, do not board it in ;)
I just don't see how ashiok prevents explorer from doing anything. If explorer is already on board (as it is a one drop) then ashiok does nothing.
Right. Only if it is not on board. If Explorer is on board and you do not have Stifle, you have lost anyway. But let us go away from the Nicfit MU that is 30 % :D It takes up too much room. Let us concentrate on the matchups that matter.
Turn 1 (you): Cast Shaman
Turn 1 (him): Cast Delver
Turn 2 (you): Ashiok, mill 3, exiling a Goyf (BTW, I still have no idea why you always talk about the "graveyard" when talking about Ashiok, since it exiles cards!). Ashiok has 5 loyalty.
Turn 2 (him): Flip Delver, attack Ashiok down to 2.
Turn 3 (you): Bolt Delver, cast Goyf for free with -2 from Ashiok, Ashiok dies?
Casting your own Goyf on T2 here would have been better than casting Ashiok here, since you would have had 1 mana open for Spell Snare / Spell Pierce (or even to Bolt his Delver T2), and you end up with a Goyf too...
I need to test Ashiok, but I feel like a 3-mana card is not necessarily the best plan in the tempo mirror... Maybe against midrange or Miracles to disrupt their Sensei's Divining Top shenanigans. But in the mirror, I think it's too expensive. Unless you plan to play it as a late-game bomb, once both players are in top-deck mode... But in this case I'd rather have a Planeswalker that can protect itself, like Jace or Lili. Or a True-Name Nemesis to finish the damage race!
Having another Goyf would not be better in the situation because the opponent does not have its Goyf anymore. Furthermore we play only with 2 Goyfs so we do not have it always in the opener :)
The graveyard part has been edited out, it is a concentration error due to the lack of sleep ;)
Yes, but removing a Goyf from your opponent's library is not the same as removing it from his hand. Statistically, if his creatures are shuffled randomly in his library, removing the top 3 cards shouldn't change the statistical distribution of creatures. You could as well be removing 3 lands with Ashiok, helping your opponent find a threat faster... And if he uses Brainstorm and Ponder to draw useful cards and keep useless cards on top of his library, Ashiok actually helps him improve the density of good cards in his library.
I rather cast Threads of Disloyalty on a resolved Tarmogoyf than durdling with a 3cc Walker in the Tempo mirror. Didn't you declare TNN a no-go in the Tempo mirror lately because of the cost? Investing 3 mana for a complete random effect in Tempo is not where you want to go afaik.
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Yup good points :-). But we are talking about a SB card and not about 2 MD TNN' replacing our Goyfs in the lists. It is a 3-drop that can grind the opponent out and has the potential to grab 1-x creatures. 2-for-1s are always costier. TNN is a 1 for 1 for 3.
Threads or Mind Harness are limited. Ashiok can make for example use of the come to battlefield triggers of the DnT creatures or steal a non-green/red creature with CC>3. It saves SB space due to the broad applications.
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