Maybe I just haven't played with loam vs jace decks much, but I rarely get to nug a jace with monastery
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
How was the Chains?
Marvelous, works like wonders against BUG and combo decks. I've also tested it against SnT (which I feel like is making a comeback) and if it lands, it will help the match-up a lot. The one thing I was thinking of was maybe a split of 1/1 Chains/choke because I run 2 enlightened tutor in the side now, the reason is because there's a lot of blue non basic decks, land locking bug,uwr, etc. is very devastating for them. Thoughts?
Are the Humility for SnT matches?
Yes they are. I feel like it's just a rough match up. Oblivion Ring doesn't deal with Sneak Attack honestly... Pithing needle does do the job if it doesn't get countered. I've debated on this kind of card or answer for SnT for a long time... HELP!! it frustrates me thinking about it -_-
The Maze?
Because of the way the meta is currently not locally, i don't know where to go with this and the reason is.... Sometimes the extra color land is helpful, another wasteland is useful. I've soo much winning experience with Maze that i can't drop it and every time i have dropped it, i've lost a match wishing i had a maze. For example, SCG MIL, Maze shutdown and helped the reanimator (which is still a real deck) match up, it has kept an griselbrand at bay in SnT matches, Reanimator, Tin Fins, it has kept an annoying batterskull quiet also. So it's debatable.
Mhm... I just like to play good magic and i always consider the kind of answers the bring in for our answers. It'll drive me nuts but, testing and testing is always helpful. Looking for clues also help the adjusment, play style, all that n more. I will admit, against combo decks, Thalia and such are not as useful anymore. And I just ordered 2 Toxic Deluge, it's gonna get played over the Deed, Goblins and Merfolk have a tendency to sometimes be powered to 3. Three life and 2B (the importance) is surely worth it to wipe that army, even 4 life for dumb angel tokens.
Idk, i've seen that new BUG fit list bw=eing played but the meta has become quite fast for that deck, so we'll see.
I haven't dropped a match to a Jace deck in a while when I see a loam. Threat recursion, card draw, mana denial and mana development all in one card is just too powerful if you can't stop it/kill me first.
Monastery avoids sorcery speed removal and they cannot block it profitably without angel tokens/an equipped batterskull. You have to watch out for swords to plowshares but that isn't that hard with confidants and knights in the deck.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
How come you didn't run any dark confidants? And why Fire&Ice over Jitte MD?
Grats to 13th!
It would be a preference call, no confidant means you want to beat down faster as he is a terrible clock.
The fire and ice over jitte is to get past the expected blue decks running true name nemisis.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
How important is the Thorn of Amethyst over Thalia? I also run an ETutor board so logically Thorn is better, but missing the threat hurts...I guess diversifying my hate so I don't get wiped out by Pyroclasm or Massacre (Also run Teeg, Canonist) would be better.
Thoughts on this list? Features SFM, Smiter over Goyf, Therapy + Souls + Liliana, even Thespian Depths. 6/52
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...8&iddeck=87951
Thalia is a clock and thorn is not. Most games you lose to combo are going to be ones whee you disrupt them and cannot kill them in time, Thalia does her best to do both.
From my list last night I have already made some changes....
-4 knight of the reliquary
+1 stone forge mystic
+1 scavenging ooze
+1 Lilliana of the veil
+ 1 eternal witness
-1 maze of ith
+1 volraths stronghold
Having all 3 tutors really left me not having much to search for...
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
Hello rock players!
I just started playing this deck, and gleaned lots of good advice from this thread and Matts podcast, so I thought I'd make an account here and post my experiences with it so far.
The deck I played last night:
4 DRS
4 stoneforge mystic
4 dark confidant
3 loxodon smiter
4 abrupt decay
4 stp
1 unexpectedly absent(for funsies)
4 thoughtseize
3 inquisition
2 sylvan library
1 batterskull
1 jitte
2 liliana
4 bayou
1 scrubland
1 savannah
4 verdant catacombs
2 marsh flats
2 windswept heath
2 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
1 karakas
sb:
4 extirpate
3 enlightened tutor
2 rest in peace
1 pernicious deed
1 engineered explosives
1 COP:red
1 Ethersworn canonist
1 engineered plague
1 life from the loam
I tried this pile at a 20 person event last night and came second, and it was fun to play... Here's a small report-
Round 1, Tin Fins.
I get karakas in my opening hand, and there's not much he can do about it. Game 2 I get karakas AGAIN, plus a hand with RIP and enlightened tutor. t1 I tutor for a second RIP, and there's not much he can do about it. I was surprised to have a decent game against reanimator, but lucky karakas draws will do that!
Round 2, Death and Taxes
This deck used to scare me when I used to play the gate, but not anymore! Both games I remove all his creatures and then bury him with sylvan library. D and T is a great deck, but its downfall is having zero card draw/card selection. I feel like if I can get a t1 discard, t2 removal, t3 plow + creature, they can't come back from it. I think I made some good decisions by not worrying about his vials and going after the threats instead.
Round 3, u/r homebrew
He played a cool deck... a bunch of counters, top/counterbalance, clique, snapcaster, standstill, and dark depths/thespian stage. Smiter was good here, doing exactly what an elephant with a big fucking hammer is supposed to do. I win game 1, he has the dark depths combo, but I have karakas to bounce marit lage... Game 2 I'm mana flooded, and his snapcasters get there under a standstill. Game three goes to extra turns, I end up plowing 2(!) marit lage tokens and have an insane board of 2 smiters, batterskull, jitte, bob, stoneforge, sylvan library and DRS. On the last turn he's at 14, I'm at 6... I swing with everyone when I should have thoughtseized first, and he bounces my batterskull token and plays snapcaster to chump and force a draw. I think I would have gotten him down to 5 life after him gaining 40... nuts.
Round 4, Tezzarator
Played a friend of mine and his tezzeret deck.. Game I kill him with smiters. Game 2 he leyline/helms me. I took the wrong card with thoughtseize, his hand has transmute artifact x2, ensnaring bridge, tezzeret, something... He already has a leyline out. I should have taken the bridge but I took tezz. I didn't know he was going the helm route though. I do get to cast unexpectedly absent for the first time ever on a thopter foundry, but make a dumb mistake by not pushing it down 3 cards into his library. I had the mana too... Game 3 he has a slow start with no islands and I mise into my 1 deed which takes out a strix, sygnet and ensnaring bridge. He digs with tezz 4 or 5 times but never really comes back from that. I didn't realize how suicidal that deck is, between ancient tomb and talismans he must have done himself 10+ damage. It's nice to see 2 ancient tombs on the board across from you.
The deck played really well overall, and I think I had pretty good matchups... The ideal opening is t1 discard removal, t2 stoneforge. I used to run hymns over inquisition, but I really need to protect that mystic with a t1 discard. I never drew a Lily and didn't really miss her that much. I usually play knights of the reliquary but didn't miss them either... manabase felt better without maze and bojuka bog, and an extra wasteland anyways. I took out a vindicate for unexpectedly absent, got to cast it once, whatever. I don't know if it's necessary, my removal is pretty damn good already and I could see myself switching it out for another sylvan library or smiter... Probably library though, the card is just disgusting when you're aggressive with it and it just buries people. It's just made for this deck, when I look at my top 3 and see decay, stp, whatever, I'm paying 8 life and you're not getting back into this game...
Sideboard could use some work, it's really just a pile of random cards. The grave hate is necessary, I seem to play dredge all the time... I'm kind of weak to combo, and I'm open to suggestions. I'd like to have teeg, but with no GSZ he might be tough to draw into. At least I can get canonist with tutors. Playing again tonight, so we'll see how it goes!
I think you need 3-4 Thalias in the board to help shore up the combo matchup…. As I said earlier in the thread she is both disruption and a clock, which is hard for a combo deck to fight.
How did the lack of wastelands affect your DRS mana activations? I really enjoy the turn one DRS into wasteland to ensure mana for the next few turns.
Finally, how did the low land count feel? 19 seems risky for a deck without true mana fixing/acceleration...
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
This is my argument for the Thorns over Thalia, i mean you could play both ^^... anyway its not to trash anyone but its just my argument about thorn over Thalia, its either you can take it or leave it. No MTGsource drama haha....
Both Thorn and Thalia play the same disruption for us. The difference is Thorn is an artifact which I think is harder to remove versus Thalia who can get burnt out by pyroclasm, or massacred. Honestly combo does have a problem with Thalia but she doesn't scare them bc of how prepared they are for her. Another reason for the Thorns is the fact that if you are playing E tutor, it can be tutored for where I've never seen Thalia being tutored for unless you are playing eladamri's call. Thorns also cost 2 colorless vs the 1W, in some in ways it's not that bad but if you open with bayou, wasteland hand and no white with Thorn in the 7, you can cast it without mulligan. Thalia is also a legend, therefore only one of her can be in play on your side (new rule still in mind). Thorn can be played side by side, one might say, well that hurts us, not in the combo match it doesn't, Rock has the ability to play late game and we win with creature beats anyway.... For sure Burn is a bad match up for us and I know Thorn is an absolute problem for them (I've played against it with thorn). Burn can handle Thalia. Another scenario is against Omnitell, the first thorn resolved because my opponent figured he could easily play around it but when he show n tell for 4 I dropped another Thorn, Omniscience ain't got jack crap on that. Which then followed by a Stoneforge, that led to a batterskull and a win.
So in my experience and opinion, Thorn has just been the right choice for me. Up to you if u like it. I'm not hating on Thalia or players who like her better. I'm just giving my two, to help develop a better deck.
[QUOTE=lavafrogg;763636]I think you need 3-4 Thalias in the board to help shore up the combo matchup…. As I said earlier in the thread she is both disruption and a clock, which is hard for a combo deck to fight.
How did the lack of wastelands affect your DRS mana activations? I really enjoy the turn one DRS into wasteland to ensure mana for the next few turns.
Finally, how did the low land count feel? 19 seems risky for a deck without true mana fixing/acceleration...[/QUOTE
Oh shit, that was a brain fart.. I play 4 wastelands. :)
4 Thalias, yikes... You're probably right, but what to cut? Had a really weird night of legacy tonight, ill write a short report tomorrow.
I was also at SCG LA, finally getting my report in.
I ran:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Loxodon Smiter
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Lingering Souls
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
SB
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Golgari Charm
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Rest in Peace
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Ethersworn Canonist
R1 Goblins:
Game one I kept a solid hand of Stoneforge, Bob, Abrupt Decay, Lili and lands. He wins the roll and drops a t1 Lackey. I have to pass with no answer, and he plays a second Lackey and draws 4 off the Ringleader he drops off the first Lackey connecting. Oof.
I bring in Charm and Deed, taking out discard.
Game two went very long. I dropped a bob t2 after having his lackey take up farming. I guess he was relying on the lackey connecting because he didn't have many plays for a few turns. Over the next 6 turns I play my 3 other StP's and see no more lands past my initial two. He eventually overwhelms me. 0-1
R2 Pox:
Game one bob drew me a bunch of cards to overcome his discard and waste hit his tabernacle. He IoK'd me and saw Smiter + Souls.. and chose Smiter. I had him read the card and reconsider his selection, but it didn't save him.
I took out discard bringing in Needle and Deed.
Game two he played a t1 Lili off of an Urborg and ritual into my empty board and plussed.. this time I did get my free Smiter. His second land was a Factory and he missed his third, so I wasted Urborg and he didn't play anything else. 1-1
R3 Omnishow:
Island, go. Fetch, Bayou, Deathrite, Go. Ancient Tomb, Show and Tell, Omniscience and Enter the Infinite. Sick game.
Brought in Charm, Canonist, Thalia, Teeg and Bridge. Took out Souls, Path, Decay and Ooze.
Game two my t1 Thoughseize got Forced. He played island and said go. I had Shaman, Lili, Charm and Batterskull in hand. I dropped a land and passed. He played Ancient Tomb and Show and Tell. I dropped my Batterskull to get priority before he could cast EtI and Charmed Omni but he had another Force. 1-2
R4 Burn:
Game one Batterskull saved my ass.
Needles for Lavamancer and Charm for Sulfuric Vortex. Out with the discard.
Game two the game state ended up as such: He had a bunch of mountains in play with a Blood Moon and a Vortex. I was at 2 life with a Decay and Batterskull in hand along with a Lili (at 6) and Stoneforge (played last turn). BUT I had no green sources thanks to Moon. I ulted Lili, giving him either the Vortex or the rest of his cards. He didn't buy it for an instant and let his Vortex go. And ripped a Bolt.
Game three my hand looked good with some lands, 2 Shaman a Therapy and a Bob. As I ripped into my other 2 Shaman's and my other 3 Bob's I realized he wasn't going to kill any of my dudes, so I Therapy'd myself for my Bobs, and then later sac'd my 1st Bob to send a Smiter to the yard. Deathrite ate yards for the game. 2-2
R5 American Delver:
Not a terribly exciting match. I had no answer for his Sword of Fire and Ice attached to his True Name Nemesis game 1 and game 2 I couldn't find a Deed or Charm over a good 3 turns with Library in play so TNN took it again (this time with a Skull attached). 2-3
R6 Tin Fins:
Thoughtseize saw what he was up to game 1, taking Entomb. Therapy took both his Shallow Graves and that gave me enough time to find a Karakas, StP and pressure.
Brought in RiP, Canonist, Thalia and Needle. Didn't want Souls, Smiter or Decay.
Game two I dropped a Deathrite and Thalia before he missed a 3rd land drop. Waste put him out of the game.
I stuck around to play the last three rounds, beat Sneak and Show, lost to Miracles and drew out with Goblins. I didn't take any notes for those games though, so I don't really remember what happened.
Stoneforge felt awesome, would never cut. Souls was unimpressive, as was Smiter. Someone above me mentioned that he hurts when flipped to Bob and that's a pretty real thing. I would swap him for Goyf and probably swap the souls for MD Thalia or more discard.
EDIT: Has anyone tried Tidehollow Sculler? Seems like a way to fit more disruption in along with Thalia in the main. Going to try it out Thursday if I get to play.
Last edited by picklock; 11-06-2013 at 10:43 AM.
Dark Confidants just don't survive much, and if they do the life loss can be a big deal against certain decks. If you drop it late in the game it can be real sketchy, and you rarely want to draw multiples. If you're facing a big boy board or even just a bunch of creatures and on the defensive then the 2/1 body has nothing but chumpblock or more life loss written on it.
I also wanted big beaters that survived Punishing Fire, other burn, and also being bigger than some other guys; in that sense Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary are card advantage themselves, while being good at beating my opponents. Knight having the added benefit of growing extremely large, and searching for karakas or waste. I also really wanted to fit in KOTR just because he was so good for Karakas. At the same time didn't want to many clunky 3 drops against all the tempo decks hence 3 Goyf. Sometimes 2 mana is infinitely less than 3 mana, especially with only needing 2 colors on the field to cast it instead of 3. (because I always want black, then either white or green) And I always regret going below 3 Goyf. Stoneforge Mystic dies to burn but still grants some card advantage coming into play, along with being a grave-hate proof "beater".
I don't know, perfect storm of requirements for me. Couldn't fit in everything, and Bob got the cut.
Sword of Fire and Ice and Golgari Charm were maindeck anti-Nemesis-but-not-just-for-Nemesis cards. Umezawa's Jitte probably would have been overall better mainboard throughout the day, but SOFI wasn't bad by any means, having similar uses, and if I had actually seen any Nemeses I would have been glad to have it. That said, if I could 100% get SOFI active I'd win almost all my matches but obviously I can't just rely on it. Golgari Charms serve as actual answers while having many applications against many other cards and deck types. Liliana of the Veil is a sorcery speed 3 drop with a double black mana cost. While she can be fantastic, the matches where I expected Nemesis didn't seem like she'd be great against. Spell Pierce, Daze, Stifle, other random creatures which I may or may not be able to kill at the right time or in enough time. I didn't want to be cold to Nemesis maindeck, and this is what I came up with.
EDIT:
A couple more things:
Stoneforge Mystic is the best beater we have available imo. It's not affected by grave hate, has card advantage tacked on, and has tutorability for versatility too. The only problem with it was that sometimes you just want an actual beater THAT turn, when you're behind on tempo. Another reason why I ran 3 goyf/kotr.
This deck placed 1st of 23 in Spain:
Creatures [15]
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
Instants [6]
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Disfigure
Sorceries [11]
1 Life from the Loam
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize
Enchantments [2]
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library
Planeswalkers [4]
4 Liliana of the Veil
Lands [22]
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
//BOARD
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Plague
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Duress
Just GB Rock, as you can see, like Eva Green.
Runs some more Pulses and runs Lilianas, and obviously no STP.
-Matt
Last edited by sdematt; 11-07-2013 at 08:58 PM.
That GB Rock list is slick.
I went to play at a local tonight and it never fired… I went for a super fair game today with no stoneforge mystic or equipment and 3 loxodon smiters main board. There was a small group of players playing unfair decks against each other in game ones. Needles to say I wasn't to thrilled but I watched them play the who can win on turn one game for a while until someone wanted top play me.
He pulled out burn…. we learned that we have a terrible game one against burn without jittes main deck. He killed my the turn before I could stabilize and the fourth game I won on the back of all basic lands, 3 DRS and him drawing 3 price of progress.
After the last burn game he pulled out his MUD deck and we were able to play one game.
I started the game with thoughtseize and took a blood moon, he played a metalworker and curdled for a few turns. He bricked on a faithless looting and drew into a bunch of lands. All I really wanted to do was swords his metalworker and waste him out of the game(I had loam in hand). Eventually I get a Bob and Goyf with 2 DRS and start to goto work on his life total. He rips a staff of nin to crawl back into the game by killing my Bob and eternal witness. On his last turn he forge masters up a platinum empirion and lightning greaves. I drop Lilli for the game. I m not sure what he could have tutored up at that point as my goyf was bigger than worm coil and anything else would have been lilli food…
I was really happy with the hands I was drawing. 3 GSZ and 4 DRS seemed right, I will most likely find room for the 4th GSZ.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
really intrested in your report matt, as the GB-Rock list seems quite intresting
really looking forward to your analysis, specially on your card-choices like hymn, disfigure, and 4 lilianas
i was wondering if anyone had thoughts about maybe using tombstalker in the rock?
i figured that the only decks capable of dealing with him are either decks that run white, or decks that run liliana MD/or maybe other edict effects
he was not used much in the rock because of a few reasons
1. if flipped by bob it costs a ton of life
2. gravedependant and delve shrinks goyf(sometimes) and knights (most of the time)
to 1: there would only be a maximum of 2 tombstalkers be in a rock list with confidants, i used them for a while but before knight came out, and it was still fine using 2, it rarely happened anything simply because of either top or library
IMO this reason is not that important
to 2: this was the main reason why tombstalker got the cut in our list, because at that time knight was allmost unbeatable in cost/efficiency.
now with DRS everywhere knight definitely loses a lot of value, and in most lists he is even allready been cut or the number of knights used has diminished dramatically.
my point here is that i think that tombstalker could be a valueable asset to our creature base because for a lot of decks he poses a threat they are not able to deal with
what do you think? or do we have the same problem here that he would be harder to cast because of deathrite shamans and thus not viable in the rock?
I should have clarified. That list placed first in Spain.
-Matt
oh, in that case i misunderstood this :P, was wondering why you would play in spain in the first place :P
I I sitting in my hotel room in vegas, waiting for my wife to get ready and I am looking at planar birth as a white card to use with Lilliana. We could discard basics all day to her and then ideally bring them all back with the white sorcery. Could be paired with zuran orb to gain tons of life or ob nixis to combo kill our opponent.... Maybe this is worth looking into for a new deck all together?
And yes I know DRS is a card.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
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