that's my point! this is a deck that wants to save his counters just for counterwars and hand disruptions.
In this scenario, imho, Swan Song > Pact of Negation, just all day and all night.
1 PoN in SB is fine while comboing off or, as you said, as an EOT CW before going off.
I can't see a scenario where PoN>SS apart the turn you're going off.. or, at least, this deck needs more counters.
-1 PoN
-1 something
+2 SS
also, I'd test more Intuition. Alongside with CW, they are our 3rd card in the combo so... why not play more?
4 Show and Tell
4 Omniscience
4 Enter the Infinite
4 Cunning Wish
3 Intuition
4 Force of Will
3 Swan Song
1 Twincast
3 Dream Halls
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cities
6 Fetches
10 Lands
SB
usual but with at least
1 Firemind's Foresight
1 Intuition
1 PoN
1 Release the Ants
1 Rushing River
1 Trickbind
1 Research/Developement
1 Emrakul
1 Laboratory Maniac
Last edited by Poron; 11-06-2013 at 10:08 AM.
I find running Pacts a small opportunity cost, given how much they help improve your Delver matchup. If you don't plan on facing at least one Delver based deck in whatever tournament you are attending, I can see an argument for cutting them in favour of Swang Song/Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce.
...Originally Posted by adamt
You guys realize that each time you Clash, each player gets to put the revealed card on the bottom of their library?
I like my list (:D sorry) a lot, it's consistent and reliable. But not fast.
I always find myself wanting more mana. May be more Sol Lands and Lotus Petal too..? it's rare to win before turn 4.
But it's rather consistent when we go off.
The fastest mana base I have been able to have the deck play consistently with is: 5 sol land, 3 lotus petal, 6 fetch, 7 islands (21 mana sources). This mana base makes T1 wins possible, T2 wins relatively common. With this mana base I found that the 4rth DH and 4 CW helped with consistent fast kills, the biggest trade off was you had to cut PoN and flusterstorm, and go off unprotected more often. This mana base does let you pay for slaughter pact, occasionally hard cast leyline, and recast S&T if they blow up your enchantment with Enter on the stack. Regardless of how you build your mana base though, this will never be a regular T1 deck because of the need for 3 cards to combo. To make the deck go off on T1 more often you really need to do the Ur Omni-Griselbrand thing, and I am not a huge fan of that build. As such, I have recently switched away from the faster mana, instead going with 4 sol, 6 fetch, 9 island, 1 karakas. Karakas can be awkward (caused some mulligans) but also buys wins against thalia and reanimator. It is a trade off I am happy with. Reanimator legends and Thalia can single handily win, so this is a nice out to have access to in your deck.
On the swan song debate, I would run flusterstorms before swan songs. I run a pretty standard 4 FoW, 1 PoN, 1 flusterstorm main. Flusterstorm is frequently the best of them at actually stopping an opponent or forcing through a win, so going to 2 or 3 of those would be where I would go before adding any swan songs. If your sneak and show opponent is hard casting sneak attack, they are not playing a particularly fast game and you have time to interact. There are not at ton of other enchantments I worry about and the instances where flusterstorm is paid for are lower (in my experience) than when they have another counter (which turns off SS).
The one other mana base change I have flirted with is running 7 fetch and 1 volcanic to enable 2x pyroclasm out of the board (wish for sudden spoiling and the like are less strong since you need omniscience in play already in order to cast them, making slaughter pact normally a better option). Note, that if you do this, I would max out on City of Traitors before playing any Ancient Tombs. This package is very strong if D&T, shardless, elves and Jund are common (the first three are likely going to be popular in DC, which in turn means Jund will perform well against the field). It is also fine against tempo (just try not to play the volcanic before you need it). The big problem with this is clearly that you have to trim your wish board slightly.
That's my 2 cents. Hope to see some of this deck popping up in DC.
Edit: While I don't think anyone will be confused by what I said above, do note that pyroclasm is a sorcery so not a cunning wish target (and you really should not splash in burning wish). Running this means you have fewer wish targets in game 1. Where it helps is game 2 & 3 when the number of hate bears is maxed out, or the opponent is trying to maintain pressure while countering your "important" combo pieces. Pyroclasm gives you play there. It is also cover against dredge (a terrible matchup as far as I can tell) when they are on the beat down plan or trying to set up dread return and against empty the warrens when playing against storm or belcher. Against storm, depending on how many leylines and non-pact counters are in your board, it may not be reasonable to side in a copy. For the record, I don't think you should side it in for the storm matchup, but you have the option. I like it more against belcher.
Edit 2: Toxic Deluge off of one underground sea would serve a similar purpose to pyroclasm, and get around mother of runes protection, True-name Nemesis, and larger creatures. Not clear to me that it is worth the extra mana in the casting cost and the life loss to have have that extra layer of protection.
Last edited by limbo; 11-06-2013 at 01:53 PM.
Hi all,
Looking for better solutions to hate bears like Thalia. So far, Teferi's realm has been suggested. Pyroclasm or toxic deluge off a splash has been suggested, but I'm not sure splashing is a good idea. Of course Slaughter Pact works fine. I do like the suggestion of Karakas, but how do you find your one-of?
Has anyone tested Helm of Awakening yet? It just might work vs Thalia. I'm testing it now, want to know if other people have tried. Not looking for theory or guesses, just results! Of course it doesn't work vs. other hate bears, but Thalia seems to be the most commonly played one.
Thanks all.
Play Emrakul like everyone else.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
I do play Emrakul in my list. Clearly, it's not sufficient. I need more against Thalia.
I like the Karakas as a one of in the 20 land (5 sol, 6 fetch, 1 karakas, 8 island), no petal, no splash manabase but it is very close. If you expect a lot of Thalia and Reanimator, I think it is worth it, but in the dark it is not.
The good: It has allowed me to shut down the Young Pyromancer Reanimator deck that was trying to kill via Elesh norn which would have demolished me otherwise and has bought me the turns I needed against an attacking Clique and allowed me a non-wish game 1 win through Thalia. It also gave me live draws (which I did not hit) against a reanimated Iona on Blue on T2 with counter backup. I have not drawn it in the 3 matches against Sneak and show matches I have played with this build. In prinicple though, it would be good against S&T and Through the breach. I have run about 40 matches (~100 games) with this configuration, so three game wins from it is not a ton against a general field.
The bad: On a couple of occasions it has prevented me from playing an additional cantrip during a turn. It has also caused me to mulligan 3-4 times based on hands that did not contain blue but did contain Karakas and I have had it be wastelanded which slowed my eventual kill by a few turns. Going down to 4 sol lands would reduce these problems somewhat, decide for yourself if the tradeoffs are worth it. You don't auto-lose when you mulligan with this deck, but I think that shows that the plus and minus of the card are relatively close.
Summary: Clearly I am still operating in the realm of small number statistics, so consider the above mostly anecdotal. Clearly it is a bad card (much worse than island) in your deck in matchups where your opponent doesn't run relevant legends (be real, never looping your own Emrakul). So I guess I have to reiterate my first point: Run it if you expect a lot of Thalia and legendary monsters, don't run it in the dark.
Have you manage to cast it? With SnT or counterspells it looks great! But the UU aren't too much without the Omniscience? What is your experience?
mtglegacy.blog.hu
mtgvintage.blog.hu
Thank you for the advice. I do expect a lot of Thalias, Griselbrands, and Other legends (like Bartel Runeax, jk), so I'll consider it. Based on the above evidence, sounds like it would be good in the SB; unfortunately that means cutting something else, but it may still be worth it, as Reanimator and Thalia decks need some SB help.
The other legend to keep an eye out for is Ruric Thar, the Unbowed. Elves has started to main deck one as a way to improve their combo matchups. Karakas is the best answer to that by a wide margin, as any other solution once he hits play will almost certainly cost you 12 life.
in the Elves matchup you have to counter GSZ and NO. They simply can't resolve.
Just played this deck to a finals prize split in the Sunday Legacy Series tournament at GP DC.
Here was the list that I ran, which I would recommend, and would not change a card for the current metagame:
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
3 Dream Halls
4 Enter the Infinite
4 Force of Will
4 Omniscience
3 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Show and Tell
1 Ancient Tomb
10 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Intuition
1 Pact of Negation
3 City of Traitors
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Daze
SB: 1 Eladamri's Call
SB: 1 Intuition
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Release the Ants
SB: 1 Trickbind
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 1 Rushing River
SB: 2 Seal of Removal
SB: 1 Noxious Revival
SB: 1 Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
I was happy with both the main deck and the sideboard, and wouldn't change a thing. Some comments on my selections:
Maindeck 1 Leyline of Sanctity. Lejay's build has it as a suggestion, and I opted to go for that because it is more useful arguably than any other sideboard card which could be moved to the main. I got a free game win with it game 1 against Storm. He was surprised but scooped to it since he had no maindeck outs.
1 Pact of Negation, 1 Daze mainboard: Pact of Negation is not useful at stopping discard, but is useful when comboing, so I wanted something to maybe draw into when Brainstorming the turn before going off. Daze is useful at stopping discard, Liliana, whatever basically, or to help you combo off. Would want 2 of them to increase the chances of drawing them early, but a) there's no room, and b) it can be a weak card in the long game in some matchups.
1 Flusterstorm sideboard: With the maindeck as is, it makes most sense to have Flusterstorm in the SB. Pact of Negation can still be sided out if you want a free counterspell in the sideboard to wish for in games 2-3. Game 1, you wait until you have lands to play it. Yes, it's not as good as Pact of Negation side, but I want access to at least one Flusterstorm in the 75.
2 Seal of Removal: They were only used once today, but came in handy at the GP as well (went 6-3 and missed day 2). Useful for bouncing everything, from hatebears to Delvers to Tarmogoyfs (used it today for that purpose to stay high on life), to your own Emrakul if necessary. And they are blue.
0 Sapphire Charm: No room in sideboard. Slaughter Pact does similar function and has additional utility potentially against Iona by not being blue (although if they have Iona coming into play you're probably not in great shape).
Thanks to those on the forums, especially Lejay and the other frequent posters and deck designers, for such excellent advice and primer on the deck.
what was your average win turn, with that list?
I would guess turn 3 or 4 as the median, maybe turn 4.5 as the mean. It ranged from turn 2 with protection or certainty (pretty rare) to turn 10 plus after grinding through counter spells. One win was I guess turn 0 or turn 1 but I'm not really counting that in the averages. I played Leyline of Sanctity game 1 and the opponent scooped a turn later after seeing what I was playing as he had no main deck outs.
I've been playing this deck for a while, including a 2.5k win (Jupiter Games) SCG Open T64 (Somerset), and most recently T64 at GPDC. I wanted to post my current build as I'm looking for a little discussion on several slots that I'm not happy with:
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
3 Dream Halls
4 Enter the Infinite
3 Force of Will
4 Omniscience
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Show and Tell
1 Intuition
1 Impulse
1 Pact of Negation
1 Daze
1 Gitaxian Probe
2 Flusterstorm
7 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
2 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb
SB: 1 Eladamri's Call
SB: 1 Intuition
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Laboratory Maniac
SB: 1 Trickbind
SB: 1 Sapphire Charm
SB: 1 Firemind's Foresight
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Pact of Negation
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Research // Development
0) Thanks to Leejay et all for the original list, I've been incredibly happy with it.
1) I'm not particularly happy with the Daze or Probe in the main deck. They have both been okay, but not great. I think the Daze is too cute and doesn't actually have the impact I want. It may become a second Probe for the time being (though that's on the cutting block too).
2) Flusterstorm has been amazing for me, but 1 might be enough main. The second might become a second Pact. This may be me being results oriented as 3/4 of my losses at the GP were to Delver variants where I just couldn't fight through multiple Spell Pierce / Daze / Forces.
3) I'm thinking of trying to find room for 2 Defense Grid in the sideboard, but I'm not really sure what it comes in against, or what I would take out for it. I think I want the Grids against Delver variants to fight over the turn before I want to try and go off.
4) Adding Emrakul to the main and still not playing Release the Ants was a concession to the number of Thalia and Teeg's I expected to run in to on the weekend. I still don't see having Release the Ants as my main win condition because I like the flexibility that Lab Maniac provides, though it does eat up an extra sideboard slot. I did not find the space to be largely relevant as there are never more than 3-4 cards I want to board in/out at any given time.
5) Impulse is part of the FF package, but has also been great for me just as a 13th/14th cantrip.
6) Sapphire Charm was a last minute addition in place of Slaughter Pact, but I'm not sold on either and not convinced that I need one.
I'd love any and all feedback or discussion related to the above list and comments.
Thanks!
Are you missing a Leyline of Sanctity in the main? Only 3 in the board seems odd if you're not running the 4th there...
1) I dislike Daze as a one-of. You're not going to consistently see it early (which is when it's best) and in this deck, we're like High Tide in that we need all the mana we can get and Daze sets us back on that plan. I'm personally a fan of Probe because it gives you lots of knowledge on what to play around and cantrips too.
2) While I like Flusterstorm as pretty much a counterwar trump, I'm not certain it's the best choice for us given that we're already a fairly mana hungry combo deck. Against the non-countermagic decks, Flusterstorm is generally bad and we don't care and go off as soon as we can. Against the tempo decks, our mana is usually constrained and often can't afford the extra mana to cast Flusterstorm if we're forced to go off against a fast clock. The only time Flusterstorm really shines for us, in my experience, is against other combo decks.
3) Defense Grid is great against any deck that plans to stop us with counterspells. It pretty much limits them to casting 1 counterspell, so as long as we build up to 2, we can usually push through anything they have.
4) I prefer the Release the Ants kill to free up a sideboard slot, as you mentioned, but it's really each person's preference on the cost of the extra slot vs the less disruptable kill.
5) If you're running the FF package, Impulse seems fine. Trickbind is also another popular option.
6) I prefer Slaughter Pact first just because it costs less mana (which matters under taxing effects like Thalia) and the upkeep usually won't matter if we're just going to kill them that turn.
Hey - Thanks for the feedback.
0) I'm not missing a Leyline anywhere, I cut down to 3. I found I was never actually bringing 4 in when I was bringing them in. This could be 100% wrong.
1) Agreed; okay I'm on board with cutting a Daze for a second probe. I also had Daze in as a second 2CMC target for FF, but that has literally never come up in 50 matches so its so much of a corner case I'm willing to concede the point.
2) I've found Flusterstorm (as a direct replacement for Pact) to be useful dealing with things in the early turns where you just actually can't cast Pact. It stops Thoughtsieze / Hymn / Stifle / Brainstorm / Ponder / NO / Glimpse / Visions / etc. and can buy you time where Pact would do nothing. I will also openly admit this is also a concession to the fact that there is a large % of Storm in my local meta (thanks Bryant!) I also like the fact that with this deck you can wait until the last possible second to win, which usually means I can afford the extra turn or two to find Daze/Spell Pierce mana or be able to SnT with Flusterstorm + Force Backup. The % of games I win on Turns 2-3 is actually extremely low, even if I have the combo at that point.
3) Okay I'm sold. What would you shave from the SB to fit in 2 Grids?
4) Noted;
5) I've seen lists (most recently JJ et all) with Trickbind main, but it seems poor if you happen to naturally draw it. I like that Impulse can actually just be cast on turns 2 / 3 to dig for a piece.
6) I was thinking of the situation where I can deal with a Thalia or Teeg on my opponents turn and then untap and try to win. In this case S. Pact doesn't actually work because I can't pay for it on my upkeep. If I phase out Thalia / Teeg / etc on my opponents turn (although it will cost me 2 mana instead of 1 at that point) I can then untap and go off with all my mana. Where as if I have to Pact on my turn that is -1 mana the turn I'm trying to go off. This may again be a corner case, but it was my logic in the decision. *Edit Charm also has the marginal upside that I can bring it in and if I draw it when I don't need it it will still cycle.
No problem!
0) I believe Leylines are one of those cards you either run 0 of or 4 of. If you're going to run it, you want to maximize your chances of opening with it, right?
2) That's fine to use Flusterstorm as an early turn disruption spell, but my experience is that Pact is used to protect your own combo on your turn, so you're using Flusterstorm in a way that Pact isn't intended to be used for (at least in this deck). If you're going to use it as early disruption, wouldn't Spell Pierce or even Swan Song be better since they can hit more things and are pretty much as effective in the early game (a Spell Pierce is pretty close to a Flusterstorm with 1 copy in the early game).
3) Tough question. I haven't played the deck in awhile, but I didn't really like the FF package myself. If you cut that + trip a sideboard slot by playing the RtA kill, that could free up the 2 slots for Defense Grids? I've always found sideboard slots to be very tight in this deck because we have so many options available to us.
5) Agreed - I think Impulse is overall better than Trickbind in the main too.
6) This is true, but since you're running it as a 1-of, I tend to find that I'm Cunning Wishing for the bounce/kill spell more than I'm naturally drawing it, so if say you're forced to go EoT Cunning Wish, you're talking 6 mana to EoT Sapphire Charm out a Thalia so more likely you'll have to cast the bounce spell on your turn. However, sometimes you do get that 6 mana, so 1 of each in the board seems fine to me so you can keep your options open.
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