[Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

[Barbed Blightning]

I can not understand why this is a DTB, have not posted any good result for ages. I think the Shardless Agent deck results are counted to this thread.

I think the confusion lies in the fact that TA Tempo is still making top 8s and since they have the same name, they are grouped together unfairly

[Goosen]

That might be it. Anyway it really should not be DTB.

[phazonmutant]

This is the data that DTB is based on: http://www.tcdecks.net/metagame.php?...y&fecha=2013-3
If you drill into the "BUG Control" archetype, it's clear that the majority are Shardless BUG: http://www.tcdecks.net/tipo.php?arch...&format=Legacy

Pretty sure Delver based TA is not grouped together with Control.

[catmint]

Delver used to be grouped together with control, but that was a while ago. These days Shardless really took over the BUG control/midrange spectrum, but as long as tcdecks does not split it up, it is also tough for thesource to select the correct DTB's. My suggestion was to merge the shardless thread with this one, since both threads are not that active and imo the decks are similar enough (one abusing shardless engine, the other one snapcaster mage).

[Nihil Credo]

Just a clarification: this thread was put in the DTBF on the assumption that people would use it to also discuss the Shardless option (which made up exactly 50% of the March results for the TCDecks "BUG Control" category), to avoid having three BUG threads in the forum. Particularly since neither Shardless nor Shardless-less, by themselves, would make the cut.

Looking at the last few pages, obviously this hasn't worked out. So I'll be moving the Shardless thread to the DTBF as well for the rest of this month. The DTB arrangement for next month will depend on the complete April results - so far all but one placement is from Shardless, which would make the solution simple, but this could change. (For catmint: the forum software makes thread merging a complete mess, so it's not a viable option, sorry.)

[phazonmutant]

I feel bad posting a list that hasn't been battle-tested, but this thread is so dead... I've been testing Deedstill to pretty good success on cockatrice:
2 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Standstill
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Disfigure
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Life from the Loam
2 Counterspell
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Force of Will
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs

// Sideboard
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
1 Darkblast
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Baleful Strix
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Chill

Deed is criminally underplayed right now, and I've been impressed by Mishra's Factory every time I've seen it played. It blocks the majority of the relevant threats in the format and is obviously insane under standstill. The biggest "problem" with Deedstill is that we don't get to play Deathrite Shaman, but I really haven't been missing him. Instead of dropping a 1-drop that doesn't really work great under Standstill, we just play more removal and counterspells.

This list is durdly to the max, but Deed and Standstill have a lot of raw power. Deed is great because it's good against all the creature decks and also the control decks right now. I think it's at its weakest against Thresh, which seems like a tough matchup. Some Innocent Bloods in the board might be warranted.

What do you guys think?

[Adryan]

I feel bad posting a list that hasn't been battle-tested, but this thread is so dead... I've been testing Deedstill to pretty good success on cockatrice:
2 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Standstill
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Disfigure
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Life from the Loam
2 Counterspell
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Force of Will
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs

// Sideboard
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
1 Darkblast
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Baleful Strix
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Chill

What do you guys think?

The deck is quite dead i would say. The BUG archetype is only viable with Standstill, Ancestral Vision or as a tempo deck. Everything else can't compete with Tier 1 Decks.

To improve the RUG matchup and your list in general in a well developed meta i suggest the following changes:

1. Add a playset of Innocent Blood to the maindeck
Best Removal against Jund, RUG and BUG Tempo. All Tier 1 Decks. It also helps a lot against many random decks like Goblins or Nic Fit.

2. Add a 2nd Life from the Loam and replace the basics with duals
Drawing 2 sucks sometimes but not drawing your singleton sucks even more in some matchups. We play so many Lands and i think it's more important to have all your mana available than to avoid some Wastelands.

3. Move Spell Pierce to the SB and add MD Discard
Soft Counters are very bad in every non Combo Matchup because of Standstill. Many opponents break Standstill very late.
Discard is maybe a personal preference but after a lot of testing, i found Discard always useful in every Matchup. Thoughtseize removes threats, Cantrips, provides information and protection for Standstill and Jace.

3. Move Garruk to the SB
Garruk is not at its best with all the red decks around (Jund &RUG, random Maverick with Pfire). I'd rather play the 5 mana Garruk Maindeck.

4. Play no Creatures in the Maindeck and play 4 Jace (Snapcaster is not a creature xD)
I don't like that my opponent gets any value from his removal spells.
Baleful Strix seems cute but there are better cards to play in BUG Control. In my testing i found Innocent Blood to be better against RUG Delver and Jund than Strix, because Strix can be targeted by Spell Snare, Daze (3 CMC is a lot against RUG Delver) and Pyroblast.
Jace is your main wincon, and with a 4th Jace you increase your chances to draw one before your opponent. That's very important against Esper or Miracle.

5. play more Flusterstorm and Perish in your 75
both cards are very good against RUG Delver and Perish is excellent in the current meta.

[phazonmutant]

To improve the RUG matchup and your list in general in a well developed meta i suggest the following changes:

1. Add a playset of Innocent Blood to the maindeck
Best Removal against Jund, RUG and BUG Tempo. All Tier 1 Decks. It also helps a lot against many random decks like Goblins or Nic Fit.
...
4. Play no Creatures in the Maindeck and play 4 Jace (Snapcaster is not a creature xD)
I don't like that my opponent gets any value from his removal spells.
Baleful Strix seems cute but there are better cards to play in BUG Control. In my testing i found Innocent Blood to be better against RUG Delver and Jund than Strix, because Strix can be targeted by Spell Snare, Daze (3 CMC is a lot against RUG Delver) and Pyroblast.*

First off, thank you for the suggestions! I'm not a very experienced Standstill player, but learning the archetype with a bit of a brew has been fun. Of course it's always valuable to get advice from more experience control players.

I love Innocent Blood and have been very happy having 2 in the sideboard for a variety of matchups. I agree that Strix on his own is not strong enough to beat Thresh for the reasons you've described.
On the other hand, I think that the idea of just blanking opponent's removal doesn't work in a deck that wants to actively use manlands to either block or win the game. Vendilion Clique is a very strong, versatile card that's won me a number of games and I like that Strix is a removal spell that provides some small pressure under Standstill.
So I can definitely see cutting Strix for a bunch of Bloods, but I'm worried that a) I'm going to have too many dead cards against combo, and b) I really do think that Clique is one of the best creatures, so in matchups where you're not trading off Clique as a removal spell (like blocking Goose), Innocent Blood gets a lot worse.

3. Move Garruk to the SB
Garruk is not at its best with all the red decks around (Jund &RUG, random Maverick with Pfire). I'd rather play the 5 mana Garruk Maindeck.
...
Jace is your main wincon, and with a 4th Jace you increase your chances to draw one before your opponent. That's very important against Esper or Miracle.

You're right, Garruk is just too cute. I had cut him because at 4 mana he's not very high impact. If I felt I could consistently cast a GGG spell I'd agree Primal Hunter is better, but that seems ambitious.
I've been thinking about trying out a 4th Jace. I really don't think I need the help against Miracles (x-0 in games pre/post against a good pilot), but I could see Blade control being closer. I'll give it a shot.

2. Add a 2nd Life from the Loam and replace the basics with duals
Drawing 2 sucks sometimes but not drawing your singleton sucks even more in some matchups. We play so many Lands and i think it's more important to have all your mana available than to avoid some Wastelands.

3. Move Spell Pierce to the SB and add MD Discard
Soft Counters are very bad in every non Combo Matchup because of Standstill. Many opponents break Standstill very late.
Discard is maybe a personal preference but after a lot of testing, i found Discard always useful in every Matchup. Thoughtseize removes threats, Cantrips, provides information and protection for Standstill and Jace.
...
5. play more Flusterstorm and Perish in your 75
both cards are very good against RUG Delver and Perish is excellent in the current meta.

2) I'll try out replacing basics with duals. I've been very happy so far with the basics and I really can't see myself not having just 1 basic Island, but I think that's because my testing is a little inbred against decks with Blood Moon. Not sure I can get behind 2 LftL though. I'm not even very happy with 1.

3) Ok, I'll give that change a shot. Pierce has been very hit or miss, although on the whole I've been happy with it.

5) I agree with Flusterstorm. I bumped it up to 2 and am considering a third if I move the Innocent Bloods to the main as you suggested. It's criminally underplayed.
I'm not sure I understand the appeal of Perish. There's a lot of non-G aggro decks right now, and Perish is pretty much just a discounted but less-versatile Deed.

Thanks again for your suggestions! I'll test around some more on cockatrice and hopefully will play some version of this deck at my local tournament on Wednesday and report back.


edit: forgot some stuff
Before I read your post I'd been continuing to make tweaks to the deck and just wanted to get your take on them. So I found I was losing most games to consistency issues - not drawing lands in my 24-land deck, drawing a bunch of dead removal, not drawing removal, etc. I also found that dropping back-to-back Standstills really aren't even that good except against combo because of hand size, so drawing 2-plus Standstills at once was not good. Also, the deck isn't as maximized on Standstill as some - only 3 Wastes and 4 manlands.
So to fix these consistency issues, I tried adding 2 Ponders and cutting 1 Standstill (with 23 lands). It's felt much better so far.

[phazonmutant]

One last bump before I give up on the deck. I played this at my local tournament this week:
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Baleful Strix
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Disfigure
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Life from the Loam
1 Thoughtseize
1 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Standstill
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 2 Innocent Blood
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Perish

I tested out the changes Adryan suggested a little but didn't much care for most of them, although I didn't play enough to really know for certain. I did incorporate some of his suggestions.
Small turnout this time again unfortunately.

Rd 1 - Thresh (against Brian Eason)
Game 1 I played pretty well around Stifle and Daze, but ultimately wasn't able to answer a Mongoose after he countered my Baleful Strix and Liliana. Game 2 I got timewalked by a Stifle (perhaps could have done a better job playing around it - he had been representing Stifle), then he countered my Life from the Loam twice, keeping me off B mana while his creatures beat down.
0-1

Rd 2 - TES (against Megadeus)
Game 1 I kept a hand with Counterspell and a couple Brainstorms, but he Emptied for 14 on the play turn 2. I couldn't find a Deed in time. Game 2 I was able to slow him down with Thoughtseize then Ponder into a Deed when he Emptied. Game 3 I had double Force almost all game and was able to stop him.
1-1

Rd 3 - Bw Pox
Game 1 was over pretty quickly when he cast Lingering Souls instead of Smallpox, allowing me to untap into Jace. Game 2 was very grindy - I Extirpated his Bloodghast and later Snapcastered it on Worm Harvest, but Soul Siphon killed me before I found action or another Surgical. With 3 minutes on the clock, we started Game 3. By the end of turns I had Surgical'd his Loam and Bloodghasts and had a Jace on board and a backup in hand, so he was a gentleman and scooped.
2-1

Quarters - Goblins
Ah, my favorite matchup. G1 I appeared to be stabilized, but then lost as soon as he cast Siege-Gang Commander. Even though I Deeded away his tokens, the SCG got me next turn. G2 was fairly grindy and in my favor on board until he Ringleadered into Krenko, another Ringleader, and Incinerator. Then I couldn't win.


Overall I would say that I'm not the best Standstill pilot, as testing with alphastryk has shown (thanks for pointing out the many mistakes that I make!). This build is the best that I've been able to come up with, but it has the fundamental problem of not being able to close out a game once it somewhat stabilizes. Vendilion Clique seems to be by far the best way to do that, maybe there should be a third main? The manabase is also atrocious.
It seems strange to me, but after intensively testing this deck and playing in the tournament, I feel as though my draws are significantly less consistent than combo decks, even my 12-land 5-color darling, TES. I'm putting this archetype down and going back to unfair decks.

[apistat_commander]

I have been tooling around with this list:

Lands [23]
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

Creatures [13]
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

Instants [14]
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare

Sorceries [4]
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

Planeswalkers(5):
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

SB:
1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Disfigure
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Duress
2 Flusterstorm
2 Engineered Plague
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb

I wanted something that was a balance between the aggression of a TA list and the strong endgame of pure control. Thoughts and/or suggestions?

[Adryan]

Thoughts and/or suggestions?

Inferior to Esperdeathblade, Esper Control (3-4 Lingering Souls hurt a lot), Jund, BUG Standstill and Shardless BUG. So why should anyone play this deck?

[Madmankevinx]

I am contemplating trying something like this out this week. Mainly for fun and a change of pace, but I feel that I'll do fine. I'm sure I've missed something(someone say 4 Deathrite Shaman) so feel free to suggest card substitutions and a reason.

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 The Abyss
3 Standstill
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library

4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce

1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Ponder
1 Damnation
4 Thoughtseize

4 Baleful Strix

3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest

SB:
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Engineered Plague
2 Flusterstorm
1 Krosan Grip


How's it look?

[Madmankevinx]

So I decided to go ahead and bring a BUG control list to the weekly Legacy event last night. The deck was great and had game against everything I faced. For the record, our group of players regularly top 8's SCG events which I'll mention to put into perspective the competitiveness and skill level at our tourneys. This is the list I ran:

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless

3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage

3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell

1 Ponder
1 Damnation
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize

1 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library

1 Crucible of Worlds

3 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest

SB:
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
1 Thoughtseize
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
2 Perish
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Blue Elemental Blast

My only loss was to mono red burn all night. Beat loam pox, affinity, sneak and show and RUG Delver. Every single game was won from Jace Ultimate. Pernicious Deed was absolutely ridiculous and I need to get at least one more in the main. Crucible of Worlds was a fantastic one-of and won a couple games off of a waste-lock. Spell Snare is AWESOME. Tarmogoyf was usually a 6/7 or 7/8 all night, but it became obvious early in the tournament that this deck just wins with Jace. I don't understand why this deck style isn't being played right now. It's got game against basically everything and I enjoyed the looks of hopelessness and frustration on the faces of some of the East Coasts finest. I will be tweaking the list a little bit and playing it some more in the weeks to come.

[lavafrogg]

This thread is super dead but I don't think there is anywhere else to post this list I want to play this week. Last week my. LGS was filled with degenerate decks so I don't want to get stuck playing rock again. This is what I am going to sleeve up:

4 snapcaster Mage
4 deathrite shaman
4 tarmogoyf

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 abrupt decay
3 dismember
4 force of will

4 hymn to tourach
1 life from the loam
1 unearth

3 Lilliana of the veil

1 sylvan library

7 fetches
4 wastelands
2 bayou
3 tropical island
3 underground sea

My biggest goal is to grind them down with hymn recursion and then seal the deal with a Lilly keeping them in top deck mode. The cantrips will help us find disruption and then the loam to break the Lilliana +1 ability.

16 blue cards is low but I don't really want to be force of willing threats all willy nilly. With abrupt decay and dismembers I think I am going to try to kill anything that goyf can't block. Super aggressive decks will be a problem but a stabilizer in the board should help out bunches. My preliminary board:

3 surgical extractions
2 natures claim
3 spell pierce
2 golgari charm
1 toxic deluge
2 inquisition
3 death mark

[lavafrogg]

So, after some testing against some friends I don't like the dismembers and wish there was a g/b/u utility spell printed recently that did useful things for one mana. Currently I am looking at phyrexian mana cards(mental misstep would be nuts here), and gitaxian probe would up the blue count and also work really well with snapcaster.

Other candidates are vapor snag, which turns into pseudo removal with hymn/active Lilly, and noxious revival which could be good...

I also am looking at the inclusion of dark confidant but I have no idea what to cut. The smartest move would most likely be tarmogoyf but then I would have zero clock to speak of. Confidant would also help break the Lilliana symmetry quite well.


Currently:

-1 unearth
-3 dismember

+4 dark confidant

Still changing

-1 life from the loam

+1 lilliana

[lavafrogg]

Does anyone think that this should even be a thread anymore?

I am really interested in a snapcaster/Lilliana/unearth engine that would fall under the midrange BUG category, should i just start a thread in new and developmental or go at it here?

[catmint]

Imo the thread can stay inactive until another major meta transition makes BUG without Delver and without Shardles viable again...
Maybe nemesis helps.. not sure...

[lavafrogg]

Imo the thread can stay inactive until another major meta transition makes BUG without Delver and without Shardles viable again...
Maybe nemesis helps.. not sure...

That's not very helpful....

[ZimAshe]

That's not very helpful....

So Lavafrog helped me to find this thread. Hoping that we can maybe have a discussion on where this particular version of BUG sits in the current Meta. I was at my LGS yesterday for a legacy event. and while it didn't fire there were some players that that I got to test this deck against. Particularly one who is very good at legacy, has made some SCG top 8's and plays a TNN deck that I had built my version of BUG to hopefully beat.

The List:

Creatures:3
3 Deathrite Shaman

Spells:32
4 Brainstorm
3 Innocent Blood
1 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Life from the Loam
1 Intuition
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Force of Will

Lands:25
2 Bayou
1 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland


I think that this list is pretty ripe for the meta. while everyone is trying to get there TNN's in play you have all the answers. Deed is really, really good right now in the midrange blue matchup.

I played against Belcher 4 times and only lost once. Then against Robots and won all three games including post sideboard. and played My friend's Esper Deathblade deck 5 game ones and won 3 of the 5.

[Nastaboi]

Needs moar Standstill. You should check UBGx Landstill thread for ideas, it has been more active recently.