Ancestor's Chosen is old tech that was used like 5(?) years ago to combat Storm and Aggro with a single card.
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
Just to elaborate; ran the Quad list -1 Ichorid, -1 Study, -1 Coliseum, +1 Fstorm, +1 Citadel, +1 Paradise. The Study change was purely for SB space, as I wanted the 4th Fstorm for that meta, and felt that it would have more use maindeck as at least a discard outlet than the 4thIchorid. SB was:
4 Unmask
3 Firestorm
1 Ichorid
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Wear/Tear
2 Ancient Grudge
Can't speak too much to my wins. Sort of a jumble. Losses were, in order:
Rd 8: Craig Wescoe/D&T: G1: Won turn one.
G2: Mull to 5. Still hit two Narco and all four Bridges to end turn two one the draw with 8 Zombies in play. Wescoe topdecks a Ratchet Bomb to add to his board of Mom. I bring back two Ichorids, who don't swing into Mom, and swing out with Zombies. He activates Bomb, amd I end my third turn again with 8 Zombies. He plays his fourth land, his second Ratchet Bomb, and RiP.
G3: I mull to four on the play, and he has turn two RiP.
Rd12: Shahar Shenhar/Esper Trueblade:G1: I mull to a no-land, 2 LED, 2 Troll, Looting, blanks on the draw. He allows both LEDs, and the first Looting to resolve, and Dazes the Flashback on the one I dredge into. Absolutely correct since once he allowed the first LED and I hit no Narcos, it was his only chance to stop me. He ends up getting two active Deathrites, an active Jitte, and the four lands to use both, and switch Jitte. I saw no mistakes from either of us, but I was still able to race him by one turn.
G2: I misboard, thinking White=RiP, bringing in Wear over Grudge. Combined with a sub par hand, that allows his Relic and Deathrite to shut me down.
G3: Another close one. I Fstorm his first Deathrite, and Grudge his Relic. His second Deathrite slows me down long enough to land a Mystic, I miss on hitting a Therapy or Grudge for the Bskull that he gets, which lets him live long enough to draw Jitte and close out the match. Best match of the tournament.
Rd 13: Kyle Miller/RUG:G1: I mull to six on the draw, and can't DDD even though I know what he is playing. This plays directly into his Dazing my first play, Wasting me, and Forcing my next play. I essentially do nothing.
G2: I resolve a turn one Looting, drawing my fourth land. He hits his one of Cage on his turn one. I resolve a turn two PImp. He Wastes. I then begin playing Stinkweed Imp, and using it on D while swinging with PImp. Once he gets three guys, I block with PImp to get three Zombies. He Bolts my Stinkweed, then we spend three consecutive turns on him Forcing my recasting Stinkweed, while I block with Zombies to live. By the time I can resolve Stinkweed to mow down his team, I have lost my Bridges, am dead if I don't allow him to swing me down to two so I can kill him on the backswing. He has the Bolt. Worst match of the tournament.
~ Team Unicorn MottoOriginally Posted by MacGruber
Why not just use a universal artifact/enchantment hate like Nature's Claim. I'm sure the 4 life they gain won't matter.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Wear is universal, it just costs one more. The life is relevant against any Aggro deck with any Artifact based hate. It's also far better against any deck with Chalice, Blood Moon, or Counterbalance. The reason the switch mattered against Shahar is that you play completely differently with stuff you have to have in hand vs stuff you can dredge into.
I might get into some other results later, but I now need to give a huge thanks to Mike Noble "Fish", who gave me a gigantic compliment. He played Goblins, and while one of our games was close, the other I blew him out. After the match, we discussed plays for a bit, asking questions and such, like anyone might do with an intelligent, friendly guy such as Mike. He told me then that he had been around a while, and that I was the best Dredge player he had ever seen. When I sort of blew him off, he insisted that I had done everything technically perfect during our match. He then pulled out a picture of him, and a guy he said won Vintage Champs with Dredge, who he said was a friend, and still said I was way better than he. Not posting this to brag. I had never met Mike before, and I am confident with my ability with the deck. Just wanted to put the gratitude out there, since that confidence boost really carried me throughout the rest of Day One.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
How did Unmask work out for you? I've been testing with it recently and really diggin' the card. Also, are there any changes to your 75 that you would make in retrospect?
I make changes for every tournament. As always, Dredge is a deck of 75 cards. Not 60 and 15. You always build the SB first, then make your adjustments to the main accordingly. For this tourney, I had zero complaints. Though I do think that Wear would have been just as good being Claim. Local influence had me too afraid of Chalice decks. No big deal there.
Unmask was excellent. It makes most all Combo matchups in our favor. And even if a Show deck boards Leyline, you can use it as a free discard outlet. What put it over the top was the combination of it and the Wears and Grudges. I have 6 ways to remove Artifacts, but only 4 for Enchantments. Which are usually far more damaging. Fortunately, RiP costs two, and is usually telegraphed. Unmask gives you four more ways, along with Wear, and Therapy, to remove it. You need to be especially careful with this plan though, as your Black count post-board becomes paramount.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
Thanks for sharing. I'm curious though, do you ever board in more than four cards, and if so, what do you typically take out? I'm always reluctant to bring in more than four, but maybe I'm just not doing it right.
You do have a knack for that don't ya ;]
Played another local tournament at MTG Deals this past weekend. There were 30 or so players with 5 rounds of action and a cut to Top 8.
Round 1: Maverick
Games: 1-1 Match: Draw
Game 1 was rather long and grindy which is why we ultimately went to time. Not really the conventional start to the day, however, I didn't mind the draw as much considering it would most likely mean a slew of slow blue decks I would be facing. Course this wasn't exactly correct as there were no other individuals with any draws in the tournament outside of my 1st round opponent. This meant I would be essentially dream crushing all day. *_*
Round 2: Jund
Games: 2-0 Match: 1-0-1
Round 3: U/R Delver (with Young Pyromancer)
Games: 2-1 Match: 2-0-1
Round 4: BUG Tempo/Team America (only undefeated player left at 3-0, has to play. Felt bad again Dx) All ends well with Cody eventually making Top 8 as well!
Games: 2-0 Match: 3-0-1
Round 5: Sneak & Show
Games: ID Match: 3-0-2
Top 8
Quarter Finals: Elves (Jacob Koby Kory)
Game 1: Double LED hand compliments of Koby :U
Game 2: Koby opens with Llanowar elf and I dispatch the playables out of his hand on my turn which essentially puts him out of the game.
Games: 2-0
Semi Finals: ANT
Notes: I therapy the Infernal Tutor out of his hand both games to stop his development and move my game along.
Games: 2-0
Finals: BUG Tempo/Team America (Cody Johnston same opponent from swiss)
Games: 2-0
Notes: Cody makes a mistake turn 1 by fetching up his U. Sea instead of his Trop. No access to green makes me a happy camper ;p
I end up scooping up the U. Sea and Polluted Delta as 1st place prize! It was a pretty good day I have to say.
Also I had the same maindeck. The only difference this time around was -2 Nether Shadow and -1 Coffin Purge to include 3x Mindbreak Trap in my sb. I did indeed have one for my ANT Opponent in the Top 8 which could not be ignored. I believe it bought me the turns necessary to place the game in my favor. The reasoning for this latest change is fear of faster combo which I see a lot more often in my local meta in the form of STORM combo (ANT, TES, Belcher etc. ) While the matchups can at times go either way I'm not going to fool myself by thinking dredge is the faster deck.
This is my SB guide for GPDC. Keep in mind that it is only a guideline, and that many factors change these decisions.
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
3 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
1 Firestorm
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Unmask
3 Firestorm
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Ichorid
4 Wear/Tear
2 Ancient Grudge
DBlade:+2 Grudge,+3 Unmask,+1 Ichorid,+2 Fstorm/-4 Bthrough,-4 LED
Patriot:+3 Fstor,+1 Parad,+4 Wear/-4 LED,-1 Bthro,-1 Loot,-1 Thug,-1 Stud
Show:+4 Unmask/-1 Fstorm,-1 Ichorid,-1 Paradise,-1 Study
Miracles:+4 Wear,+4 Unmask/-4 LED,-1 Fstorm,-1 Bthrough,-2 Study
AdN:+4 Unmask/-1 Fstorm,-1 PImp,-1 Citadel,-1 Ichorid
BUG:+2 Grudge,+1 Parad,+3 Fstorm,+1 Ichorid/-4 LED,-3 Bthrough
RUG:+1 Paradise,+3 Fstorm,+1 Ichorid/-4 LED,-1 Bthrough
Post:+4 Unmask/-1 Fstorm,-1 Paradise,-2 Study(-1 Pimp OD)
Elves:+3 Fstorm/-3 PImp
Merfolk:+2 Grudge,+1 Paradise,+3 Fstorm/-4 LED,-1 Bthrough,-1 Loot
Goblins:+4 Wear,+3 Fstorm,+1 Paradise/-3 BThrough,-4 LED,-1 Thug
U/Burn:+3 Fstorm,+1 Paradise,+3 Unmask,+1 Ichorid/-4 Bthrough,-4 LED
Dredg:+4 Unmask/-1 Fstor,-1 Therap,-1 Citad,-1 PImp(D)/Ich(P)
Tide:+4 Unmask/-1 Fstorm,-1 Thug,-1 Paradise,-1 Study
MUD:+4 Wear,+2 Grudge,+1 Paradise/-1 Therapy,-4 LED,-2 Study
D&T:+4 Unmask/-1 PImp,-1 Paradise,-1 Study,-1 Fstorm
Maverick:+3 Fstorm,+1 Paradise,+1 Ichorid/-3 PImp,-2 Study
Reanimator:+4 Unmask/-1 PImp,-1 Paradise,-1 Fstorm,-1 Ichorid
Bant:+3 Fstorm,+2 Grudge,+1 Paradise/-4 LED,-1 Breakthrough,-1 Study
Burn:+3 Unmask,+2 Fstorm,+1 Paradise/-4 LED,-1 Citadel,-1 Study
Affin::+4 Wear,+2 Grudge,+1 Para,+3 Fsto/-4 BThro,-4 LED,-1 Therp,-1 Thg
Paint:+4 Wear,+2 Grudg,+1 Parad,+3 Fstor/-4 BThro,-4 LED,-1 Thg,-1 Stdy
Loam:(OD)+2 Grudge,+1 Paradise,+3 Fstorm/-4 LED,-1 Therapy,-1 PImp
Loam:(OP)+4 Unmask/-1 Therapy,-1 Ichorid,-1 Fstorm,-1 Citadel
Jund:+4 Unmask/-1 Fstorm,-1 PImp,-1 Citadel,-1 Study
~ Team Unicorn Motto
Cutting Careful Study over Breakthrough just feels dirty, Breakthrough is a significantly worse card post-board than Careful Study and that is 50 to 66% of your games.
Is Unmask any better than Thoughtseize? I've always found it incredibly resource intensive, altho' I agree with the philosophy that Dredge should use pro-active as opposed to reactive cards vs hate - generally I stick to cards like Firestorm, Tireless Tribe and Thoughtseize wherever possible.
This is not correct. Careful Study is the worst draw effect in the deck, and the second-worst discard effect. I went for three years winning tournaments with the deck while running zero. More directly, Breakthrough is always better against Combo, even post-board. Period. And Breakthrough is better against decks running GY sweepers post-board, since it plus any discard allows you to win immediately after getting Crypt'ed etc. Against Tempo, you don't want Breakthrough. Nor do you want it against fast Aggro with hate, since you need to bring in both antt-hate, and Fstorm. But to make a blanket statement that Study is always better than Breakthrough, even with the post-board caveat, is both misleading, and mostly just wrong.
As far as Unmask, mana is the most constrictive resource in Dredge. Being able to cast Unmask AND another spell is what makes it a good choice. The two life for Thoughtseize isn't irrelevant, but isn't important. The one mana is. You are far more likely to have a superfluous Black card in hand, than an extra turn/second land drop+no Wasteland from your opponent.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
First off, it's great to actually see someone put up their sideboard choices for dredge; I appreciate you taking the time and having the guts to lay it all out.
I do have a few questions, though:
I love Breakthrough vs. Combo, and just now cut the Winds of Change out of my board after seeing you running Unmask. But against Graveyard Sweepers, post board, you like Breakthrough? Given the example you used (Tormod's Crypt), I'm assuming you're referring to cards that are not Rest in Peace or Grafdigger's Cage? I've been boarding out Breakthrough in most matchups where Nature's Claim comes in. I feel like being on the draw, you never want to go all-in vs. sweepers.Breakthrough is better against decks running GY sweepers post-board, since it plus any discard allows you to win immediately after getting Crypt'ed etc.
Care to elaborate? I think of Daze/Stifle decks when you say Tempo. I saw you only took out a single Breakthrough against those decks. I leave in mine against RUG Delver, but pull them out against UWR Delver, on account of Nature's Claim staying in, whereas with RUG, only Ancient Grudge comes in. Maybe our definition of Tempo is different.Against Tempo, you don't want Breakthrough.
Definitely looking forward to trying Unmask out. I'm just coming back to Dredge after a hiatus and I'm also trying out the 4 Careful Study, 0 Putrid Imp build. Any thoughts on the validity? Putrid Imp is a very stable card, but perhaps with Deathrite Shaman decks dominating the format the anemic nature of it was lowering win %? I know the consensus before was that Dredge just wins game 1 every time, but it doesn't feel like the 2 sideboard graveyard hate cards are the end-all-be-all. Getting choked off of Bridge from Below was one of the primary reasons I managed to lose game 1. I'm thinking that going all-in and pressing advantage game 1 may be better than building for consistency and assuming that Bridge from Below can inevitably beat Batterskulls, or is fast enough to race Combo. Maybe the GP top 8 list wasn't a fluke.
//Threats
2 Griselbrand
3 Dread Return
3 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
//Engine
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
//Lands
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
//Sideboard
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Street Wraith
4 Unmask
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature's Claim
I'm going to give this a shot at my next tournament. Lot of changes from the conventional lists, let me know what you think.
This is correct, sort of. Against Crypt or Relic, you want Breakthrough. You are usually slow dredging, waiting to hit Grudge, and/or a critical mass of threats in the GY to force them to blow. Against Aggro this puts you in a position where you need the strongest draw spell to go off after they do. With 4 Firestorms coming in, I don't have the room to keep in Breakthrough along with anti-hate, since it doesn't count as a discard outlet in these cases. But that doesn't mean I don't want it. However, against RiP from a non-Blue deck, I always want Breakthrough, since you can totally invalidate it if you go off before they can cast it. And I keep some number against Blue RiP decks since you will easily resolve it by the time you can resolve something to remove RiP.
I don't bring in anti-hate against RUG, since it's not worth the slots against 1-2 Cages. So I have room to keep in Breakthrough. It's also because I bring in Fstorm as an uncounterable discard outlet. Most often, they will counter it anyway if it means saving their Delver and three life. That gives you free reign to untap, and resolve Breakthrough.
Against BUG, I bring in Grudge, since it works against Nihil. Plus, having Deathrite as well makes it so you need to answer at least one of their GY hate cards. So with the addition of Fstorm to Grudge, I only have room for one Bthrough. The reason I cut Bthrough over the Study, that I said was worse, it because you can't count on anything resolving against these decks. So if you need to sandbag spells in hand, and don't have an initial discard outlet, you don't want to have to throw stuff away to to start your GY against a deck that can have Nihil and sandbag Deathrite, or vice versa.
However, against Patriot, you are more forced to go all-in due to RiP. So usually cantrips are worse than Breakthrough, since you get no value. Ours are card disadvantage, and almost everything you pitch has some value in the GY since you keep most lands and spells. Losing all that while trying to dig for an answer to RiP, is as bad if not worse than just drawing cards. Their clock is slower than most, and you can further slow it down by discarding their Equipment, and using Firestorm to kill every threat they have other than Geist/TNN.
I don't consider that the same deck. It's totally built differently. That list is totally dependant on the combo. That it will hit enough Narcomoebas to go off. Mine is far more incremental, both in function, and design. Neither is right or wrong, they are just set up to play out differently. I could be convinced in certain metas to run a DR package over Unmask. You'll never see me run less than three PImp, though.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
Yeah, I haven't tested it at all, but I am worried about playing with so few creatures to sacrifice. It definitely looks like the list needs to flip most the deck to win. I cut a Flame-Kin from what he was running, since the third target just felt like total overkill, but maybe -1 Dread Return, -1 Griselbrand for +2 Putrid Imp. I want to try the list with the full 16 draw spells and the rest of the deck as just gas, so I'm not going to cut draw spells for Imp just yet.
I don't know the sideboarding of Drew Tunison, but I like to know it! What do you think about probably sideboarding? I think his decklist is amazing.
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
2 Griselbrand
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
Creatures [21]
4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
Spells [27]
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
Lands [12]
SIDEBOARD
1 Ancestor's Chosen
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Darkblast
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Nature's Claim
Some suggestions?
Being able to cast Careful Study off blue makes it better than worst and second-worst. I would also point out that the Breakthrough + any discard lets you win immediately is kind of an awkward requirement to meet if you're trimming discard outlets.
I agree 100% about not wanting to cut Breakthroughs against Tormod's Crypt because it's awesome to refuel with post-Crypt. The risk, especially if you don't have Imp, is that you'll have Breakthrough + draw spell and no good discard outlets.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
I run 11 Rainbow Lands. So this is less relevant than the lists that run 8 by a fair margin.
And not only do I not cut PImp, I add Firestorms. So not only do I run more discard outlets, they are instant speed. Which both allows you to better play around Hate, and gives greater mana efficiency.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
I completely agree with you. The card doesn't force you to change your game plan, and if they don't have the hate in hand, then it still functions as effective disruption. My only complaint is that Enlightened Tutor/Brainstorm shenanigans can pose a bit of a problem at times.
Fair enough. Unfortunately, the only way to deal with that is either double up on disenchants, or run Needle. Which still doesn't deal with RiP. Your SB suffers with the former, and Needle has always proven weak. Counterable, easily removed, and too difficult to name the right target against the sort of decks that run Deathrite with Spellbomb. Especially when you have to hide it in ha d.
Pick your poison.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
I played Dredge this past weekend at the Grand Prix, making day 2 . I ended up finishing with an 8-4 record, giving me 215th place. Just wanted to share the list I played
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomeba
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Putrid Imp
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge From Below
1 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Undiscovered Paradise
SB
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
3 Natures Claim
2 Firestorm
1 Iona Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn Grand Cenobite
1 Ashen Rider
1 Dread Return
2 Nether Shadow
Matches:
Day 1
12 post 2-1
Sneak and Show 1-2
ANT 2-0
Sneak and show 2-0
Punishing Jund 2-1
Omnitell 2-1
Elves 2-0
Bant Blade 1-2
Shardless Bug 2-0
Day 2
Ant 1-2
Infect 2-0
Rug 0-2
Day one was crazy played Josh Utter Leyton round 7 on elves and then played Sam Black the following round two of the most demanding games of competitive magic in my life. Day two had some bad luck with mulligans and didn't play as well as I did day one. Going to change a few cards in the SB but I need to do more testing with what I am going to do. Was overall a great weekend!
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