[SCD] True-Name Nemesis

[JJ-JKidd]

Hydrant needs S+T or NO. Or T&N at least. TNN needs just three lands. Otoh, it's a mere 3/1 so banning seems unnecessary. In fact I haven't seen a single copy of it in the last four tournaments I attended, so I can't say that it warps meta.

Thresh may fly over it and then burn the owner... if TNN resolves whatsoever. Postboard Blasts.
Maverick may overrun it with KotRs and equipments, while taking care of Jitte with QPM.
Goblins don't care of one wall, they stampede the opponent and their card adv. and land destruction makes for the creatures lost. Post board Grudge/Needle/Spree/Vandal to fight equips. REB the dude.
No storm combo cares of Troll Ascetic.
Same goes for Show and Win decks.
Tombstalker flies over it. Pernicious Deed is a maindecked answer.
Similarly to gobbos, Jund has CA, LD and even Liliana. And Deed.
Merfolks islandwalk.
Affinity, MUD, 12-post, 8-post, 8-Tezz don't care of Troll Ascetic.
Burn needs Vortex, Pyroblast and Smash to stop the equipment, other than that they don't care of 3/1. Vortex should be maindeck in this meta.
UW control of any sort have several answers of any sort.
Esper- and Deathblade have sweepers and equips of their own to mitigate a 3/1.

It's stupid design. But not bannable.
It's not Disco Inferno.

Yesterday, I saw someone play a T2 Nemesis via Noble Hierarch. Then, opponent (Merfolk) played Phantasmal Image copying TNN. He played another Image, and another in his next two turns which basically beat the hell out of the Bant player. My point is, there are a lot of ways to deal with the creature. Lets wait for some more results before we call the ban hammer.

[UnderwaterGuy]

Yesterday, I saw someone play a T2 Nemesis via Noble Hierarch. Then, opponent (Merfolk) played Phantasmal Image copying TNN. He played another Image, and another in his next two turns which basically beat the hell out of the Bant player. My point is, there are a lot of ways to deal with the creature. Lets wait for some more results before we call the ban hammer.

So you are saying the way to deal with the creature is to play your own versions and copy theirs?

That is not a way to deal with TNN, that is a way to PLAY TNN. This is a large part of why it is problematic though I still think the bigger problem is how unfun the card is. I love magic and I spend so much time on it and have spent so much time on it in the past that I feel as though I'm stuck with the game now. Changes like this that remove choices and interactivity really take a big chunk of the fun out this game though.

Last night I played some casual multiplayer where one of the decks was playing TNN's. In that kind of a format it was a reasonable card. It would have protection from the current dominant player but it was a terrible creature as far as the others were concerned. TNN was strong here but it usually ended up getting killed by either combat or targeted removal from another opponent. This card was obviously intended for a multiplayer environment but in a duel it is a ridiculously toxic card.

[Scott]

@Scott:
TNN defenders won't believe the card is busted until after a banning. Until then I am convinced that no amount of evidence will convince them. Just sit, watch tournaments and wait for December/March. If you don't get something by then you know there's nothing that can be done and you're better off playing combo from now on or just dropping legacy. On a separate note, why do you care to convince these people anyway? What they think only matters in so far as you give them the ability to irritate you.

I'm not trying to change anybody's opinion of TNN. I actually love people having different well-founded opinions and having respectful and passionate debate. In fact, I think banning TNN is an imperfect solution, but as I'm not sure of a solution to WotC's, in my opinion, flawed recent card output, it's a murky situation. It's likely that I'll be in favor of it but I'm waiting.

And it honestly doesn't get under my skin at all; anyone who takes every voice to heart would be driven insane. Me calling people out for douchey discourse and insulting others has everything to do with being anti bullying. I still regret not being mature and self-assured enough, like most people weren't, to defend picked-on kids in school. Anyway.

[Megadeus]

Yesterday, I saw someone play a T2 Nemesis via Noble Hierarch. Then, opponent (Merfolk) played Phantasmal Image copying TNN. He played another Image, and another in his next two turns which basically beat the hell out of the Bant player. My point is, there are a lot of ways to deal with the creature. Lets wait for some more results before we call the ban hammer.

Mental Misstep is a generally good answer to Mental Misstep

[Barook]

Mental Misstep is a generally good answer to Mental Misstep

And TNN is a good response to TNN. Whoever has more is most likely going to win the race unless life totals are too low or equipment is involved.

[Esper3k]

I really wish people would stop trying to predict the future like they have some oracle gift when really they are speaking from conjecture.

Seriously. We're playing with one of the broadest card pools available in MTG. I have faith in the format's ability to adapt to it.

[Poron]

Okay, now you're just changing what you said. You said, and I quote:
"there's no possible hate to SnT but counters."

Are you trying to claim that the cards I listed aren't hate? You're trying to say "they have ways around that hate" which doesn't negate the fact what you said was false. What, are you going to say that Gaddock Teeg and Thalia aren't hate against Storm because they have ways to deal with them?

Oh, and while Griselbrand might "draw from 7 to 14 anyway" that means they give up a fair amount of life to draw cards that might not even help them. It doesn't completely shut it down if they get lucky with those draws, but it sure makes things a lot harder for them because they don't get to take advantage of the lifelink.

The point is, "they have answers to hate," while true, doesn't mean (1) the hate isn't problematic, because it's much harder to push through hate because you need the applicable answer, or (2) the hate doesn't exist.

By the way, the fact you claim "Discard and counters are the only effective way to deal with SnT." now (which of course isn't what you said before) is a bit funny considering Death & Taxes, which doesn't play either, actually has a decent matchup against the deck.

Yes, I'm claiming that those cards are not (good enough) hate.

A hate card is something that needs to be removed BEFORE going off. Else it doesn't count.

An Oblivion Ring is NOT a hate card if I drop an Omniscience with SnT because I have all the answears to Oblivion Ring, Karakas, Ashen Rider
The same with Griselbrand. To draw ANYWAY 7 cards for 2U is broken anyway. It's a very good deal anyway. That's the problem. May be they just don't Instant win, but that's not the point..

I'm just saying that if you decide well what to drop with your SnT (all but Emrakul) THERE IS NO POSSIBLE DOWNSIDE in playing it. Hate cards against SnT are good just if played before SnT (which make them so much worse).

The only effective card at that point might be Ethersworn Canonist, but again.. doesn't do anything against Emrakul nor Griselbrand..

If the pilot is good enough to check your hand somehow (Probe, Thoughtseize), before playing a SnT, there's no way to deal properly against it (but filling your deck with counters or going red just for 5 Pyroblasts, and so on)

[Zombie]

Iona on blue. It's kind of stupid to run a total blank, but hey, it works...

[Poron]

the most narrow hate card ever. but yes, Iona is a good hate card against Omnitell

What if they drop Emrakul or Griselbrand (like every Sneak Show deck)? or Primeval Titan (12 posts)?

just counters and discard are good answears to that card. That's despicable

[Esper3k]

Poor sad forgotten Chris Pikula...

Confusion in the Ranks is another pretty nasty card to drop off of a Show & Tell.

[Zombie]

the most narrow hate card ever. but yes, Iona is a good hate card against Omnitell

What if they drop Emrakul or Griselbrand (like every Sneak Show deck)? or Primeval Titan (12 posts)?

just counters and discard are good answears to that card. That's despicable

Iona on blue actually deals with Griseltard pretty well. Griseltard is scary because it draws them into a crapton of cards including more FoWs and more Shows. Iona blanks those, then you can just kill the Griseltard and they can have fun discarding their protection, win cons and bounce that's all blank.
Emrakul does need more specific hate in the form of O-Ring, sadly.

Still, hate the deck because:

Omnitell does nothing characteristic of a combo deck, card logistics-wise.
Typical signs something broken is happening:
- Someone tries to do a ton of stuff in one turn.
- Stuff is entering play from zones they really shouldn't be.
- Expensive (noncreature) things are being cast.
- Tons of cards are being drawn.

Omnitell
- Casts a single 3 mana sorcery.
- Puts a permanent into play from it's hand.

So they try to assemble a multi-card combo. Sounds like a job for discar-...


...

[Lord Seth]

Yes, I'm claiming that those cards are not (good enough) hate.

A hate card is something that needs to be removed BEFORE going off. Else it doesn't count.

So, basically, just like Oblivion Ring, Karakas, Ashen Rider... all of them have to be removed somehow if you plan to win with Show and Tell.

An Oblivion Ring is NOT a hate card if I drop an Omniscience with SnT because I have all the answears to Oblivion Ring, Karakas, Ashen Rider
The same with Griselbrand. To draw ANYWAY 7 cards for 2U is broken anyway. It's a very good deal anyway. That's the problem. May be they just don't Instant win, but that's not the point..

So, again, by this definition of hate card you're spouting off, those cards still qualify. You still have to deal with them. You can't win off an Omniscience if they just Oblivion Ring it away.

Now your claim seems to be "because I have all the answers to Oblivion Ring, Karakas, Ashen Rider" because Show and Tell does have a few ways around them. The problem is that you don't always have those cards. You might claim that the opponent might not always have the hate card, but all the opponent needs is the hate card--the combo player (Show and Tell in this case) needs the combo pieces and the counter-hate card.

I'm just saying that if you decide well what to drop with your SnT (all but Emrakul) THERE IS NO POSSIBLE DOWNSIDE in playing it.

So, "if my opponent doesn't have a good way to deal with this card, there is no possible downside in playing it." You just described like every single threat in the format.

Hate cards against SnT are good just if played before SnT (which make them so much worse).

So... you're saying that if someone Show and Tells something into play, and then I cast or put something into play via Show and Tellthat deals with it (Karakas for Griselbrand/Emrakul, Oblivion Ring for pretty much anything other than Progenitus, etc.) then the cards don't deal with things? You're not making any sense.

just counters and discard are good answears to that card. That's despicable

In that case, as I have pointed out before, why is Death & Taxes, a deck that plays neither of those, a good deck against Show and Tell?

Iona on blue actually deals with Griseltard pretty well. Griseltard is scary because it draws them into a crapton of cards including more FoWs and more Shows. Iona blanks those, then you can just kill the Griseltard and they can have fun discarding their protection, win cons and bounce that's all blank.
Emrakul does need more specific hate in the form of O-Ring, sadly.

Still, hate the deck because:

Omnitell does nothing characteristic of a combo deck, card logistics-wise.
Typical signs something broken is happening:
- Someone tries to do a ton of stuff in one turn.
- Stuff is entering play from zones they really shouldn't be.
- Expensive (noncreature) things are being cast.
- Tons of cards are being drawn.

Omnitell
- Casts a single 3 mana sorcery.
- Puts a permanent into play from it's hand.

By this logic, Painter's Stone isn't combo either. They're not doing a ton of stuff in one turn, stuff isn't entering play from zones they shouldn't be in, expensive things aren't being cast, and tons of cards aren't being drawn. They just get the right two cards together and win the game. I mean, you're basically trying to argue that ExarchTwin isn't a combo deck either, because it jut gets the right two cards together and wins off of it.

Omni-Tell requires you to get two (or possibly more) combo cards together, and then they win the game off of it. So... basically, just like a combo deck. I don't really see how in the world you can claim that logistics-wise it isn't acting like a combo deck.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Yes, I'm claiming that those cards are not (good enough) hate.

A hate card is something that needs to be removed BEFORE going off. Else it doesn't count.

An Oblivion Ring is NOT a hate card if I drop an Omniscience with SnT because I have all the answears to Oblivion Ring, Karakas, Ashen Rider
The same with Griselbrand. To draw ANYWAY 7 cards for 2U is broken anyway. It's a very good deal anyway. That's the problem. May be they just don't Instant win, but that's not the point..

I'm just saying that if you decide well what to drop with your SnT (all but Emrakul) THERE IS NO POSSIBLE DOWNSIDE in playing it. Hate cards against SnT are good just if played before SnT (which make them so much worse).

The only effective card at that point might be Ethersworn Canonist, but again.. doesn't do anything against Emrakul nor Griselbrand..

If the pilot is good enough to check your hand somehow (Probe, Thoughtseize), before playing a SnT, there's no way to deal properly against it (but filling your deck with counters or going red just for 5 Pyroblasts, and so on)

This just in.

Turning your 3 card combo into a 4 card combo doesn't make something a hate card.

Show and Telling anything but Emrakul into a card that etb removes the card from play is not a downside, never ever.

Good players will always draw Probe or Thoughtseize before playing a Show and Tell and once they do they will always be able to win no matter what they see.

Show and Tell Griselbrand is always value even if what the opponent S&Ts removes Gris from the battlefield, because draw 7 for U2 and 2 cards is still value (nevermind the 7 life swing, when is that ever relevant so why even mention it).

Seems so obvious I don't know how we all didn't see it before. If only people weren't such bad players I'm sure every top 8 would just be like 8x4= # of S&T's in top 8.

[Poron]

nono, again..

it's not that a three card combo becomes a 4 cards combo. it remains a 3 card combo

SnT -> Omniscience -> Cunning Wish -> Intuition -> Enter the Infinite -> Win

if they drop some removal like Ashen Rider or Oblivion Ring or Detention Sphere, or whatever you might think about with SnT:

SnT -> Omniscience -> Cunning Wish -> Firemind's Foresight -> (Cunning Wish, Trickbind, Brainstorm) -> [Cunning Wish (-> Intution-> Enter the Infinite)] -> Trickbind on their removal -> Enter the Infinite (finally with the stack empty) -> Win anyway

It remains a 3 cards combo.

The only thing that works fine is (at that point) Ethersworn Canonist or Meddling Mage but again, what if they drop an Emrakul with that SnT?
that's the problem.

SnT is played (basically) by three decks:

1) Sneak Show. SnT -> Griselbrand. How do you deal with it? Phyrexian Revoker/Needle? it remains a 7/7 lifelink flyier. for 2U. Even worse, with Oblivion Ring / various removal? they draw 7 anyway for 2U (that's even better)

2) Omnishow. They only fear Ethersworn Canonist or Meddling Mage. That's why they play Emrakul in G2 or G3.
Remember they play Gitaxian Probe to see your possible drop and they decide what to tutor up the turn before

3) 12 posts. -> Primeval Titan. As bad as it goes it is a 2U: take your deck and place 2 lands in the battlefield. in 12 posts. So they can play Emrakul without any fear the next turn even taking the Timewalk.

SnT can only be countered or disrupted BEFORE it goes off. That's my problem with it. When it is played, something very bad always happen. For 2U.

Ah yes, and Boseiju, Who Shelters All is a card

[Esper3k]

Omnite tends to actually go off less with Cunning Wish than directly with EtI due to most lists running 3 Cunning Wishes. Oftentimes, you need to Show & Tell -> Dream Halls, which also significantly makes it harder for you to go off.

While it certainly does have the possibility of dealing with an opposing O-Ring effect, to say they don't fear it is disingenuous at best.

[Lord Seth]

nono, again..

it's not that a three card combo becomes a 4 cards combo. it remains a 3 card combo

SnT -> Omniscience -> Cunning Wish -> Intuition -> Enter the Infinite -> Win

if they drop some removal like Ashen Rider or Oblivion Ring or Detention Sphere, or whatever you might think about with SnT:

SnT -> Omniscience -> Cunning Wish -> Firemind's Foresight -> (Cunning Wish, Trickbind, Brainstorm) -> [Cunning Wish (-> Intution-> Enter the Infinite)] -> Trickbind on their removal -> Enter the Infinite (finally with the stack empty) -> Win anyway

It remains a 3 cards combo.

Congratulations, you have managed to yet again either ignore or remain oblivious to the point that was raised!

An Oblivion Ring might not stop Show and Tell+Omniscience+Cunning Wish. But you miss the kind of obvious fact that it forces you to go off with that particular combo. You can't Show and Tell into Omniscience into Griselbrand/Emrakul, or Show and Tell into Griselbrand/Emrakul, or Show and Tell into Omniscience into Enter the Infinite, etc. You need the Show and Tell and the Omniscience and the Cunning Wish. Even if the total number of cards required is not increased (though it does increase it to 3, as Show and Tell into Griselbrand/Emrakul is either cut off or greatly weakened), the variability in what those cards can be is greatly decreased, making it significantly harder to assemble the proper combination of cards to win with.

1) Sneak Show. SnT -> Griselbrand. How do you deal with it? Phyrexian Revoker/Needle? it remains a 7/7 lifelink flyier. for 2U. Even worse, with Oblivion Ring / various removal? they draw 7 anyway for 2U (that's even better)

So... did you, like, completely ignore the previous post? Because you seemed to be responding to this, and yet they already showed how your whole "they draw 7 for 2U!" thing was so greatly exaggerated. Then again, that seems to be the pattern for your posts in this thread: When people bring up legitimate points against you, you completely ignore those and mindlessly regurgitate the same arguments that people have already countered.

I'm also not sure why you keep whining about 12-Post. The deck is only marginally more relevant than Werewolf Stompy.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Mine thread!

So guys, I'm glad we all know the general opinion on Show and Tell, but what do yout think of this new creature:

[Mewens]

Meh, seems like a terrible drop off a SnT.

[Esper3k]

Meh, seems like a terrible drop off a SnT.

This.

[Lord Seth]

I don't know, I think you're underestimating the appeal of not needing double Blue to cast it.