[Deck] UWR Delver

[TheKingslayer]

Recently picked up this deck as it seems to be the best deck to play TNN in.

Anyway, I'm playing 19 lands, 1 Island instead of the 4th Tundra. What are your thoughts on that? I feel like without Stifle (although I am currently thinking about putting back 3) the lone basic goes a long way in making sure we don't get Waste-locked.

You shameless traitor.

[Cynic13th]

So went 4-0-1 into top 4 at a local tournament yesterday with the list Owen Turtenwald played. I didn't play stifle and I think that it's wrong in this deck to play stifle (altrough I would always play it in RUG delver), I don't really mind keeping up 1 mana during my opponents turn but I just think it's not good enough now geists gets cutted. I think playing 4 spell pierce and 4 stifle is just to much and spell pierce is completely overpowered. It's so important in basically any matchup. I just think there's nothing in the deck that's worse as a stifle.

I'm not sure stifle is that bad, but I do think the deck works good without it. People should give Owen's article a read.
http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...in-uwr-delver/

He makes some very interesting points as to why to drop stifle (and then a few weeks later backs it up with GP win)

[CabalTherapy]

I'm not sure stifle is that bad, but I do think the deck works good without it. People should give Owen's article a read.
http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...in-uwr-delver/

He makes some very interesting points as to why to drop stifle (and then a few weeks later backs it up with GP win)

His articles about this deck are great and he has shown that his configuration works.
But one thing strikes me: "I have always hated Stifle, and my suspicion that it's just too weak was confirmed when basically every person whose opinion I respect on RUG Delver told me the exact same thing: “It's a bad card but I feel like I have to play it.” "
I know that Owen is a greater authority than I am^^ but I feel like he is too subjective on this topic (having in mind that this is his article thus also his thoughts) and a bit too convinced that Stifle is a bad card. Asking RUG Delver players about Stifle is also a strange thing because without Stifle RUG wouldn't exist. "It's a bad card but I feel like I have to play it.” is hence an ambivalent statement because if you don't like Stifle = don't play RUG, play mid-range Esper or Jund... And as Poron said before Spell Pierce/Daze are bound to the mana denial strategy which is clearly worse without Stifle.

[Poron]

I don't know how bad Stifle is..

We play 4 Daze and 4 Spell Pierce. Always more often people play basics to play around Wasteland, Blood Moon and (more rarely) Back to Basics.
But NO-ONE is leaving the fetch-lands plan.

Stifle is our main land-breaker and, in a deck with 8 soft counters, imho, we need all the possible mana denial strategy.

in G2 it is considerable to drop out Daze for room, but Stifle.. is still strong even in G2.

We fear Abrupt Decay and Stifle is what counters Snapcaster Mage's recursion.. Vendilion Clique becomes a 3/1 stick and so on..

[Poron]

I just saved my day with Stifle on opponent's Snap Mage (targeting Bolt aimed to my Jitted V.Clique).

Swing for 3
+2 Counters
Bye Mage
Bye G.Lavamancer

Thank you Stifle.

this was just for laughs, but I like Stifle

[SirTylerGalt]

I just saved my day with Stifle on opponent's Snap Mage (targeting Bolt aimed to my Jitted V.Clique).

Swing for 3
+2 Counters
Bye Mage
Bye G.Lavamancer

Thank you Stifle.

this was just for laughs, but I like Stifle

Wouldn't Spell Snare (on Snapcaster Mage) or Spell Pierce (on Lightning Bolt) have done the same thing in that situation?

[Poron]

Spell Snare would have been even better getting rid of the bear, but I don't play any.

Spell Pierce, instead, would have been totally useless. Mid-late game, already in topdeck mode.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

His articles about this deck are great and he has shown that his configuration works.
But one thing strikes me: "I have always hated Stifle, and my suspicion that it's just too weak was confirmed when basically every person whose opinion I respect on RUG Delver told me the exact same thing: “It's a bad card but I feel like I have to play it.” "
I know that Owen is a greater authority than I am^^ but I feel like he is too subjective on this topic (having in mind that this is his article thus also his thoughts) and a bit too convinced that Stifle is a bad card. Asking RUG Delver players about Stifle is also a strange thing because without Stifle RUG wouldn't exist. "It's a bad card but I feel like I have to play it.” is hence an ambivalent statement because if you don't like Stifle = don't play RUG, play mid-range Esper or Jund... And as Poron said before Spell Pierce/Daze are bound to the mana denial strategy which is clearly worse without Stifle.

I don't know any tempo player who'd say that Stifle is bad. Maybe Owen visits a different lgs?

[sherko7]

You shameless traitor.

:(

I had to let go of the Seas and Goyfs to cover some iRL issues unfortunately. I wanted to let go of as few cards but of most value possible. I miss bUrg though.

[Rohmulordi]

Hi,
I'm fairly new to legacy and still learning the format and UWR Delver. I'm having trouble versus Death and Taxes, I don't know how to approach the match up. Seems like being the aggressive player is really hard since I can't get enough damage through fast enough and late game is really tough since mothers of runes and vial is just too much combined with Jitte. Any tips? Using Turtenwald's GP decklist.

[Poron]

how is that possible? you play 8 removals and all of their enchantments have 1-2 points of thoughtness...

they have Karakas and we have 4 Wasteland + Stifle.. The bad matchups for this deck is Jund and all the burn decks that disrupt our (little) creature-based strategy (but TNN gives us a good hand now)

[Rohmulordi]

I just can't seem to get anything to stick to the board since vial gives so much advantage and enables him to play around my counters. Even jitte is not the ultimate answer since he can just use mothers to give blockers protection. Should I save my counters just for vials and removals and let creatures come through? Also should I aim to be the control or the aggro on default vs D&T?

[Poron]

Pithing Needle on Mother of Runes or burn/sword it as soon as she lands on the battlefield.

Without that card they're sitting ducks against us. Obviously, on the draw, our counters are much less effective (Daze and Pierce on the draw are terrible.. and Pierce was terrible anyway in g1 either against DnT)

kick MoR and fight with creatures. You should win because of Ponder and Brainstorm

[monovfox]

As a death and taxes player, going to give you some help here:

Absolutely counter vial.

Bring in artifact hate, as that's how we race you.

More removal is always better.

If the opportunity to waste your opponent out of white presents itself, absolutely do such.

Use your wastelands for mana if we have aether vial out, or wasteland a rishadan port if we have one (this becomes less relevant lategame).

TNN + jitte is your goal in this matchup. If that happens, the death and taxes player can be found crying in the loser's bracket.

HOWEVER.

Do not think this matchup is favored if the DNT pilot is skilled. It is going to be a grind. If vial is on three, and I tap it, and you have a jitted creature out, it's definitely worth it to stifle the aether vial (I know, sounds obvious, but vial triggers go through more than they should IMO).


wrap up:

artifact hate

more removal

counter vial

rely on TNN + SFM + Jitte

Save removal for creatures in this order: Mom/Revoker (#1 priority so jitte can get online), Flickerwisp/Mindcensor/Serra Avenger, Thalia, Mangara.

Removal in response to equip is pretty decent too.

Be wary of more removal post-board. plan accordingly. If on the draw post-board, keep in a FOW or two in order to counter vial if you see no artifact removal.

If on the play post board, keep in one force of will, and side in some spell pierces/dazes in order to deal with aether vial/removal. Stifle cavern of souls.

[Poron]

4 Swords
4 Bolt
(reusable through SnapMage)
3 TNN
Jitte
SoFI


for g2,g3 Pithing Needle. Boh. Really can't see how DnT is a difficoult matchup.

Or better, we can lose some matches but what about combo or Miracle or BUG control? those are bad matchups

[Poron]

oh lol I forgot Sulfur Elemental

Pithing Needle on Stone Forge Mystic
Sulfur Elemental in play..GG

you have just to beat Serra Avenger and Mirran Crusader

and for those we have more answears than threaths...

[Rohmulordi]

Alright thanks for the tips, I think I understand now where I made mistakes: prioritizing wrong targets with counters and being too hasty with removal. I have been playing without Stifle so no experience of how the match up would change if I had that in the deck. This helped so much, I'm definitely not a good player apparently :0

[Dzra]

Really can't see how DnT is a difficoult matchup.

I wouldn't think DNT would be that easy a MU. Mom and Thalia are both very good against us. Their Wastelands and Ports are always good, our Wastes are usually bad. 7-8 1cmc removal is amazing, but Spell Pierce is nearly blank. I would prioritize stopping their Mother of Runes and stopping their fliers (Serra Avenger, Aven Mindcensor, and Flickerwisp) because True-Name Nemesis can hold against everything else. If you don't have a TNN yet then you also have to stop their SFM from getting equipment online. Post-board looks a lot better with Wear//Tear, SoFI, Grim Lavamancer, and Sulfur Elemental, but they'll still have a mana advantage and Vial will give them a tempo advantage.

[monovfox]

chiming in once more:

delver decks are the reason you play DnT. The matchups are that good.

[anakyn]

Good luck to anyone thinking that D&T matchup is good for Patriot: I honestly think you haven't played vs D&T many times yet (or maybe you met horrible D&T pilots), and you will probably be disappointed when you'll face an army of fliers racing your TNN pretty well, supported by Revokers naming Jitte or any other equipment you could use. Yep, Mother of runes isn't your only problem here, and once you'll get rid of her, another threat/disrupter will come down.

And believe me: your removal will probably run out before they run out of threats.
Or sometimes you won't even be able to remove anything, nor play anything after a couple of turns, since 4 Waste + 4 Rishadan + 4 Thalia are pretty good vs a tempo deck playing few lands and relying only on duals for mana.

I usually play Jund, which has far more removal than Patriot and better mana, and even Jund often has problems dealing with D&T denial and threat/disruption density.

I wouldn't say it's a bad matchup, like it surely was before TNN was printed when Patriot used Geist; it's not good neither. TNN surely helps a lot here, but you absolutely can't rely on it alone. Your removal has to be perfectly timed as well as your counters, and you have to be a bit lucky too.

Remember: they switched back Avengers in place of Mangara just because of TNN, so it's not like they aren't prepared to face it. Incidentally (or not) this plan helps them vs Delver too, which never was a huge threat for a deck packing 4 StP and a bunch of fliers, and now it's even less of a threat since they play more fliers than before.

Don't underrate D&T: you can hate that deck as much as you want (and as much as I do), but don't make the mistake of underrating it or it will probably crush you.


P.S.: your best creature vs D&T is probably Lavamancer, maybe even stronger than TNN. If you land it early, they have to plow him fast or be on the backfoot all game long.