[SCD] True-Name Nemesis

[troopatroop]

You're comparing a card to Show and Tell, a card that shouldn't be in legacy. It's clearly the most broken card, next to LED. I say ban them both! Make combo work for it, and let TNN dominate.


Until then, the card of course should NOT be banned.

[Megadeus]

I hate SnT, but if you ban that and LED then combo becomes terrible and suddenly we are playing Modern. What a horrid idea.

[apple713]

Is there a way to block a thread from showing up in the "whats new" feed? Im really sick of seeing this in my feed every day since before its release.

This have been 30+ pages of wasted words and repeated opinions.

[HammafistRoob]

Is there a way to block a thread from showing up in the "whats new" feed? Im really sick of seeing this in my feed every day since before its release.

This have been 30+ pages of wasted words and repeated opinions.

But THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!

Funny how people think Show needs to be banned, yet Brainstorm gets to freely dominate for years.

[BlackPurple]

You're comparing a card to Show and Tell, a card that shouldn't be in legacy. It's clearly the most broken card, next to LED. I say ban them both! Make combo work for it, and let TNN dominate.


Until then, the card of course should NOT be banned.

Legacy may not be the format for you.

[troopatroop]

Legacy may not be the format for you.

I've been playing this format since 2002, check the join date. Don't be disrespectful.

[Hopo]

I guess he/she meant that if you have problem with playing this format of rather powerful cards, you should try something like modern instead. It's not like the format is stagnant and Wizards stops printing powerful cards.

[ESG]

I guess he/she meant that if you have problem with playing this format of rather powerful cards, you should try something like modern instead. It's not like the format is stagnant and Wizards stops printing powerful cards.

See, this is why it's difficult to have debates. Hard-liners just come in with their dismissive retort, "Play Modern," rather than considering the possibility that Legacy would be better off with or without certain cards. This applies to unbanning as well as banning. Hopo, haven't there been times when you liked Legacy more, or liked it less, or has it always been the same to you in terms of fun or interest?

[Hopo]

See, this is why it's difficult to have debates. Hard-liners just come in with their dismissive retort, "Play Modern," rather than considering the possibility that Legacy would be better off with or without certain cards. This applies to unbanning as well as banning. Hopo, haven't there been times when you liked Legacy more, or liked it less, or has it always been the same to you in terms of fun or interest?

I haven't had problems with the format but I don't see how that affects anything. I consider legacy to be a competitive format where some of the most powerful cards ever are legal so by default, the format is full of powerful and unfair strategies. That appears to come as a surprise to some people. And there are as many definitions of having fun as there are players out there so that is almost impossible to factor in unless we talk about pretty obvious and oppressive things like Flash.

Don't you people think it's a little too early to advocate bannings? It's weird to read people sort of giving up when their favorite decks start struggling with something.

EDIT: there's a rather large cardpool out there. Go find your favorite answer to your favorite threat and enjoy. Or maybe try a different deck next time.

[dontbiteitholmes]

See, this is why it's difficult to have debates. Hard-liners just come in with their dismissive retort, "Play Modern," rather than considering the possibility that Legacy would be better off with or without certain cards. This applies to unbanning as well as banning. Hopo, haven't there been times when you liked Legacy more, or liked it less, or has it always been the same to you in terms of fun or interest?

That's because we've all been listening to a bunch of whiny bullshit for a decade and it's only ended in bannings twice. The format has been much better for it then if every random card people complained about that had a hot streak of several months or became an integral part of the metagame was banned. Then our format's banned list would look a lot more like this other format WHICH YOU GUYS SHOULD TOTALLY GO PLAY if you like powerful cards being banned.

[BlackPurple]

That's because we've all been listening to a bunch of whiny bullshit for a decade and it's only ended in bannings twice. The format has been much better for it then if every random card people complained about that had a hot streak of several months or became an integral part of the metagame was banned. Then our format's banned list would look a lot more like this other format WHICH YOU GUYS SHOULD TOTALLY GO PLAY if you like powerful cards being banned.

I could not agree more, that is exactly what I was saying. Ditto for Hopo's post.

Troopatroop, you see disrespect where there is none. I'm just saying exactly what dontbiteitholmes said-- if you ban all these powerful cards, you lose the distinction between the two formats.

[(nameless one)]

But THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!

Funny how people think Show needs to be banned, yet Brainstorm gets to freely dominate for years.

This.

It's funny because right now, to fight any decks that play Brainstorm, you need to play Brainstorm yourself. It reminds me of the whole Mental Misstep argument.

[Cynic13th]

This.

It's funny because right now, to fight any decks that play Brainstorm, you need to play Brainstorm yourself. It reminds me of the whole Mental Misstep argument.

Really? You need Brainstorm to fight it? Because Jund, D&T and Elves aren't T1 decks right now?

[Lemnear]

You're comparing a card to Show and Tell, a card that shouldn't be in legacy. It's clearly the most broken card, next to LED. I say ban them both! Make combo work for it, and let TNN dominate.


Until then, the card of course should NOT be banned.

One look at your Avatar was enough to get where your idea comes from.

Reminds me of Modern: "Ban every card/deck that is better than Wild Nacatl due to people's crying, then realize, that everyone is playing Nacatl. Ban Nacatl for being dominant"

If you cripple and erase Combo in Legacy which is capable of beating TNN, TNN decks can focus their 75 more towards the fair matchups and some "fair" matchups against TNN get even worse -> more peeps play TNN -> TNN is dominant and gets banned.

I ensure you, combo-players do work for their wins against discard, counter and hatebears. There's no reason to swing the banhammer in addition

[Griselpuff]

I don't think LED or Show and Tell should be banned. Neither of them are seeing as much play as TNN. Since Commander 13 was released, TNN has been in 27% of top decks, while LED is at 10% and Show and Tell is just at 9%.

On the other hand, I wonder what the format would look like if Brainstorm were banned. Yes, it's a really fun card to play, and fine to play against (unlike Show and Tell and TNN), but it's such a stupid card. I'd say the decks that are well positioned right now without Brainstorm are Elves and Dredge. D&T is beginning to feel the hate, MUD is inconsistent, and Jund just sucks.

If Brainstorm were gone, a lot of non-blue decks would become a lot more viable. Brainstorm just makes it too easy to find your answers for specific decks, whether it's combo or weenie decks. In a non-Brainstorm world, diversity might increase and that might be even more fun.

I guess it comes down to what criteria we should use for banning cards. Should it be about

a) fun to play against (Ban Show and Tell and TNN)
b) format diversity, which leads to fun (Ban Brainstorm, Show and Tell and TNN, they stifle diversity)
c) specific archetypes that are way too dominant (Ban nothing)

Obviously it might be a slippery slope the more things that get banned. I think a lot of cards should be unbanned, and I definitely don't want Legacy to become anything like Modern. Just wanted to share some thoughts about why I think banning Brainstorm wouldn't be the worst idea in the world. I basically think if Brainstorm were banned, non-blue midrange decks would have a lot better chance against combo, and combo decks would still be playable due to Preordain and the blue decks not having access to Brainstorm to find their narrow hate cards.

I'm also for banning TNN, I hate that card, even if it's not "overpowered".

[ESG]

And there are as many definitions of having fun as there are players out there so that is almost impossible to factor in unless we talk about pretty obvious and oppressive things like Flash.

Thanks for the reply. The bar for you, then, is Flash. Some of us have a higher or lower bar. It's helpful to see where that is. Some people act as if nothing is bannable, and some people believe lots of things are worthy of banning. Banning one or two cards would not turn this format into Modern, just as losing Mental Misstep and Mystical Tutor did not turn it into Modern. It would remain Legacy, and the metagame simply would play out slightly differently. I personally feel that some items on the banned list are safe to take off and that some currently legal cards are ripe for banning. Others feel differently.

I guess it comes down to what criteria we should use for banning cards. Should it be about

a) fun to play against (Ban Show and Tell and TNN)
b) format diversity, which leads to fun (Ban Brainstorm, Show and Tell and TNN, they stifle diversity)
c) specific archetypes that are way too dominant (Ban nothing)

WOTC has used a range of reasons in the past to justify bannings in this format or in others. Here's a summation of Legacy's:

* Time Vault and Flash were banned due to power level.
* Mystical Tutor was banned, apparently preemptively, due to power level. This was the most controversial of these bans.
* Mental Misstep was banned due to over-representation/format-warping (effectively making decks 56 cards).
* Survival of the Fittest was banned due to prolonged tournament dominance.

It should be noted that during those years, more cards came off the banned list than went on: Mind Over Matter, Replenish, Dream Halls, Entomb, Metalworker, Grim Monolith, Illusionary Mask, Time Spiral, and Land Tax.

[lordofthepit]

That's because we've all been listening to a bunch of whiny bullshit for a decade and it's only ended in bannings twice. The format has been much better for it then if every random card people complained about that had a hot streak of several months or became an integral part of the metagame was banned. Then our format's banned list would look a lot more like this other format WHICH YOU GUYS SHOULD TOTALLY GO PLAY if you like powerful cards being banned.

I wrote this reply on a different forum when someone suggested that people who don't like TNN should go play Modern:

Aside from the other problems associated with Modern, leaving Legacy for Modern because of one card (True-Name Nemesis) makes no sense. The complaint most people have with True-Name Nemesis is that it reduces interaction, so the solution is clearly not to switch to a format that is even less interactive (despite the absence of TNN).

I wish TNN weren't in the format, but I don't want it to get banned yet since it's so new and we haven't seen exactly how the metagame will respond. As such, I've picked up a playset (and will likely play the second) and will probably try to abuse the card for as long as it's in the format and well situated. But make no mistakes: I think it's bad for the format and would shed no tears if it were to get banned.

[Dzra]

a) fun to play against (Ban Show and Tell and TNN)

Personally, I think it's pretty fun to watch a SNT player drop an Emrakul only to have their Elves opponent drop their own Emrakul. Hell, I'd even settle for an ORing or a Venser. I don't have a problem with SNT.

b) format diversity, which leads to fun (Ban Brainstorm, Show and Tell and TNN, they stifle diversity)

Brainstorm makes more decks viable than it suppresses. Name one deck that is bad because of the card Brainstorm existing. Don't confuse Brainstorm making Blue decks good with Brainstorm making non-Blue decks bad.

c) specific archetypes that are way too dominant (Ban nothing)

Probably this. True-Name Nemesis comes close to breaking this rule for me and I doubt I'd shed any tears over it being banned. However, I'd rather deal with TNN than have them set a lousy precedent that we all may end up regretting. If TNN becomes too dominant then it can get banned, until then we'll just have to wait and see. I'd honestly rather see it get errata'd then banned. It wouldn't take much for them to turn it into a card that's still playable, but can be interacted with on some level.

[Tormod]

I was really on the fence about True-Name, but after playing with it for a few weeks, I can say that his bark is worse than its bite. The community was very quick at identifying lines of play against true-name and determining he's only "backbreaking" when he's equipped. He gives those blue/white decks a way to answer board stalls instead of having to go to time and draw. True-Name is still new, and decks are already adapting. More over, my interpretation of top 8 finishes shows that the decks doing well don't pack a lot of answers for True-Name. Legacy demands that our decks be efficient and focused on our own game plan.

The only reason to ban True-Name Nemesis is if tournament attendance suddenly starts declining.
(C'mon People! True-Name Nemesis does not kill Legacy)

I agree 100% on bolded

However, I'd rather deal with TNN than have them set a lousy precedent that we all may end up regretting.

[apple713]

This.

It's funny because right now, to fight any decks that play Brainstorm, you need to play Brainstorm yourself. It reminds me of the whole Mental Misstep argument.

this is the mindless crap I'm talking about... there are tons of cards that deal with brainstorm but your narrow-mindedness is why top 8's end up with 32 brainstorms. You have little to no ability to think outside the box.


chalice of the void
chains of mephistopheles
notion thief
uba mask
meddling mage
trinisphere
nether void
thalia
Lodestone Golem
sphere of resistance
thorn of ameythest


some of these outright just wreck brainstorm. Others make it less of a value card. Some tax it while putting pressure on so your durdling comes at a hefty price.



Please if someone knows how to remove this thread from my feed permanently along with the 3 other TNN threads, I'll be forever grateful.