I have had success without Clique and with Helm. I think Clique is generally too good not to play. People argue it's more of a meta call, but I want it in every MU. It blocks Delvers, gets around Spell Pierce, and screws with their plans. It gives you disruption and a clock Vs combo, harasses 'Walkers, and generally just wins you the game. I am slightly more inclined to play it as of late due to it being UU for Thassa (yes, really) which helps as an EoT play to 'surprise 8 you'. Helm is generally fine. It's the rest of the deck that really made it for me. You play a Toolbox style control deck, fetching up answers and random contraptions via Enlightened Tutor, and then getting yourself a finisher. The deck used Counterbalance incredibly well, with the ability to just Tutor for anything 1-4 if your Top isn't co-operating. I felt it very necessary to play 24 Lands, though, so do be warned. The ability to aggro out your Helm sometimes was your only plan.
I feel as if playing some kind of Land disruption is necessary. I've been trying to find the best way, but so far I'm coming up short. I like Blood Moon a lot, but it can be infuriating at turning off Fetchlands (which is a part of why I play Thassa). I have also tried Crucible and Wastelands. I really liked the build I played, using 2 Cages in the sideboard to not interfere, but I'm not sure how good it truly is. It felt incredibly durdly, and I think I was biased towards that. It provides Wasteland protection, and the ability to recycle Fetches, and was very powerful once you hit your mid-late game, but I don't think that being powerful mid-late is what we need to focus on, considering most players will be unable to resolve Spells against us and then suddenly lethal during your End Step.
The conspiracy goes deeper than you might think.Originally Posted by useL
Can I pay you for not posting in this thread?
Blood Moon isn't really land disruption. It's more played to be an "oops I win" card against greedy decks. What exactly makes you feel "land disruption is necessary though"? Or more specifically, what are really considering as land disruption? I find that outside of moon randomly stealing matches, we don't really need to interact with the lands decks are playing, but rather their spells.
As for Vendillion Clique, I think the main reason to play it is that it is good for every matchup, which is something few cards can say. Miracles runs cards which specialize in some hate specific types of cards. Terminus is at its best against creatures and force of will keeps unfair decks in check. Vendillion Clique is somewhere in the middle, having utility against everything in the field, whether it be blocking creatures, providing planeswalker pressure, or disrupting the enemy's hand. If you commit too many cards to creatures or unfair decks in the main, beating the other type of deck can sometimes prove challenging in game 1, so Clique is a great card to have to help against everything without dedicating yourself too much to beating one style of deck. Furthermore, it gives the deck a way to be proactive, something that Miracles often has trouble doing in general, but really appreciates. While I can understand your dislike of the card--I hated Clique for the longest time and refused to run it--I think what it brings to the table is something Miracles really appreciates, and would recommend playing it as a 2-of at least. Also, it's not to be ignored that you want a few 3cc cards for counterbalance (Entreat is not enough), and I think Clique is by far one of the best options in this cc-slot.
Very. It ambush-blocks threats or allows him to misplay in fear of our ambush. It disrupts hands and combined with Karakas it chump blocks anything that doesn't trample + 1 card filter / hand show every turn.
Just very important. I play 3
I'm playing 0 of each but 2-3 Back to Basics, sometimes would be sweet
I'm a lover of control, heavy control, and RiP Field Helm was a great spin off of this deck, but Abrupt Decay, totally makes the whole engine useless.
I still play 3 RiP in SB for RUG and Dredge.
I think it's a great card for the deck. Even while I was on RIP, I still had 2 in my 75. Cycling stranded miracle cards (Entreat I'm looking at you) and other generally bad cards for the MU is great (like having a CB in your hand against a resolved Vial). It disrupts their hand, allowing you to be more proactive (Clique them during their EoT t3 to set up your t4 Jace is a classic move). If SNT only has one open Red source then you can Clique in response to a Sneak Attack activation or if they resolve Sneak Attack but can't use it yet then you can Clique them during your turn. Clique away equipment in response to SFM. Flash in EoT or in response to an opposing Jace Brainstorm to surprise pressure their Planeswalkers. A million applications.
Back to Basics is pretty bad always. Blood Moon is either very good or very lousy, it depends on the match and the board state and your/their draws. I prefer to go without.
I loved RIP/Helm for a long time, but I hung it up post-TNN. Abrupt Decay was annoying for the combo, but I don't think it hurt it too badly. Nemesis is the real nail in the coffin since it makes Tarmogoyf and Goyf-decks in general a whole lot worse. The combos are still solid, RIP/Helm and RIP/EF. UWR is on the way to replacing RUG and BUG. Sneak Attack replaced Reanimator a while back. I just don't think the meta is right for a bunch of MD RIPs anymore.
Clique is extremely important against Combo as a clock. Against mid range its so-so. Against aggressive decks like Delver I would say I prefer Snapcaster in this slot because it's true card advantage.
However with True Name Being quite common nowadays, I think Moat MD is quite useful. This makes Snapcaster less good. Recently I've gone- 3 Snapcasters-1 Elspeth + 2 Clique + 1 RIP+ 1 Moat. The random 1 RIP is quite useful against plenty of decks and if it isn't, can float on top of the library for CB. Currently trying out this combination.
Hi,
Long time legacy player, took a break, recently sucked back in. I'm currently playing OmniTell and liking it. However, if that gets old, I might like to switch to a Good Deck that doesn't lose to a certain merfolk rogue - and doesn't have to play it itself either. Miracle control could well be it.
In the vein of SevenInTheQueue, a few questions:
1) In your experience, what are the worst matchups for Miracles? Mainly thinking in terms of decks/archetypes, but also single cards, if applicable.
2) Has anyone written a good, comprehensive guide on this deck anywhere? OP is basically about another deck.
3) Are there any good streams/videos of people playing this deck well (entertainment value a plus, of course)
Best regards.
Add more land.
Hey Etienne,
since this is a more general question, I think I'll drag this to public space. To ensure you: I've never left Miracles. I've stepped a bit back for the new elven overlord Julian, since he's the undoubtful more qualified guy to take care of the Elves-Thread under the eyes of Daniel and the only thing I've changed in months is the number of Birchlores and Quirion Rangers for 4 to 3 vice versa and still enjoy success. As the deck however climaxed at it's potential and I'm more the guy for the deckbuilding (and a horrible player), I chose to dip my nose deeper into storm as the Bazaar of Moxen showed a complete new dimension of problems uprising for that archtype and redefined by recent metagame changes that also affect Miracles *cought* TNN *cough*
Now back to your questions: I suspect Team America replacing RUG as the tempo deck of choice, since it can ignore the Meerfolk, so keeping 3 RIP in the side is essential, thus I see much less reason to maindeck it without RUG in the field and ANT/Reanimator facing more hate in the SB as there is more space for that as a result of the fact that you don't have to clear field for your threat anymore ... see Submerge, see TNN, etc.
So, in a field with less stifle, less warping around the first 2 turns and more discard, Tithe is insane to pull off some cardadvantage to make up for lame 1-for-1 trades without ever having to pass a turn without dropping a land. I've tested this in the RUG-era with 22 lands and 3 tithe and it worked out fine. Under the given current conditions, I'm not even sure if or what kind of early counterspells we need MB anymore. I've tested with Pierces, snares, flusterstorms, swan songs, counterspells (2cc!) and without any, but still lack a satisfying result which left me frustrated.
Another point was about the mass-removal which was pyroclasm instead of terminus for me as a result of lots of tempo-/elves-/goblin-/D&T-stuff and stifles against the miracles Trigger in addition to the regular miracles-bricking-your-hand-syndrome once your miracles-count rises above 5. Carsten and me chatted about the second dilemma in addition to the countersuit at the BoM and he suggested TNN replacing the terminus to act as a super-wall and buying enought time to setup a winning amount of angels with the help of tithe and countertop while you are able to ignore the opponents TNN once you are able to make 2 or more angels and simply race them with 2-3 swings while TNN needs 7. Countertop remains at a full number to ensure that EtA resolves against Pierces, stifles and shit, while blocking elves. It's not a hardlock by any means and I'm confused that peeps still act it should be or start cutting counterbalance hinting at Abrupt DecayI wrote a full 2 page response untill the motherfucking IE crashed and ate all up. I'll not even sum it up, but make a short comment.
If you want to play on the back of 3-4 EtA as a kind of Angel Stompy with counterbackup which is nice atm, play ~22 lands and 3 Tithe to ensure your landdrops, while gaining cardadvantage to fight back early threats. Pyroclasm fell outta grace thanks to TNN and the vanishing tempo-decks. In a list with thst many EtA, you don't want terminus as too many miracles (more than 5) will otherwise brick your hand. As a solution Carsten and I discussed TNN as a super-wall to held back opponents aggro and to give you time for landdrops. Countertop stayed maxed as it's not a hardlock but gives you simply the time to make landdrops. Cutting it just because it's not a hardlock for 15 turns till you find your 1-2 entreats as many players do or pointing fingers at Abrupt Decay is nonsense. The early protection suit and the slots for the sweepers/TNN left me a bit unsatified and clueless, so that I'm not able to present a definitive decklist I would sleeve and therefore made me step a bit back in this thread for a while.
Playing a list with full TNN, EtA and 3 Tithe would be awesome as you can ignore opposing TNN as you can race those any day of the week with the angels. Sadly, i'm buisy in my job and try to fix storms metagame issues while left the elves-thread in good hands for now.
P.S. did we met at the BoM? I've shaked so many hands that weekend that I honesty wasn't able to fit names to Alias to faces anymore :((
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1) Generally Goblins is a difficult to impossible matchup because you simply can't deal with the gas generated paired with mana disruption. Anything with vials is generally bad news as this deck is rather counter heavy and they can avoid over extending into sweepers. Moat and the 3rd Entreat the Angels are useful for shoring up this MU. You generally aim to stall until you can alpha strike with a big Entreat. I've seen some lists run Baneslayer and SFM/Batterskull in the board for the Vial MU too. Punishing Fire is also quite a beating for us if we can't get a Counterbalance to Stick around. Post board RIP should be sufficient. Opposing Planeswalkers are also an issue because we have very few ways of killing them since the deck is creature light, the REBs in the board help in winning Jace Wars but Liliana can still be an issue. Your best bet is to try to counter it or kill it with flash creatures like Clique/Snapcaster.Hi,
Long time legacy player, took a break, recently sucked back in. I'm currently playing OmniTell and liking it. However, if that gets old, I might like to switch to a Good Deck that doesn't lose to a certain merfolk rogue - and doesn't have to play it itself either. Miracle control could well be it.
In the vein of SevenInTheQueue, a few questions:
1) In your experience, what are the worst matchups for Miracles? Mainly thinking in terms of decks/archetypes, but also single cards, if applicable.
2) Has anyone written a good, comprehensive guide on this deck anywhere? OP is basically about another deck.
3) Are there any good streams/videos of people playing this deck well (entertainment value a plus, of course
Best regards.
This deck is one of the hardest to play in legacy. The Top-Counterbalance-Miracles interactions are very complex and misplacing a card with Brainstorm or Top can cost you the game. Alot of practice is required to play optimally and even more practice is required to play fast so you don't go to time and draw. This is generally not a newbie friendly deck but don't give up on it because in the right hands it is a very powerful deck which can be tuned to any meta.
Too bad IE crashed :( I hate that browser, and I hate that some companies still force their employees to use it... It seems like a big part of your answer was left intact though (the part before you quoted me a second time)?
Thanks a lot for the excellent advice! I will try to implement some of your ideas in a list for tomorrow's tournament :)
In the TNN list, would you drop Terminus totally and go for something like 4 StP / 3 TNN / 3 Entreat? Does it make sense to keep some number of Terminus in the board, like Carsten did?
Do you think Ponder is needed in addition to Tithe to ensure early land drops? What about 2 Snapcaster Mage in the maindeck (possibly sided out when bringing in RiP)?
CB helping protecting Entreat is actually an excellent point, since Top is usually on top of our library when we draw Miracles, which counters Stifle and other 1 cmc counters.
I am considering something like this (rough draft):
// Artifact [4]
4 Sensei's Divining Top
// Enchantment [4]
4 Counterbalance
// Creature [7]
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 True-Name Nemesis
// Instant [16]
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Tithe
// Sorcery [6]
3 Entreat the Angels
3 Ponder
// Planeswalker [3]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
// Lands [20]
4 Island
3 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
1 Plateau
1 Karakas
// Sideboard [15]
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Aura of Silence
SB: 3 Terminus
SB: 1 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Mountain
I am playing 20 lands like Raphael Levy did in his list, but instead of playing 4 Ponder, I have 3 Ponder and 2 Tithe. The small red splash for REB and E.E. might be too greedy for a 20-land build... But I need to be able to fetch for a 3rd color for E.E., and I have a basic Mountain in the side to bring in against tempo / wasteland decks. I chose to play a Plateau instead of a Volcanic Island, because I want to be able to fetch red mana with Tithe.
I agree that it's hard to fit all the cards we want in the deck... I hope the 3 Ponder will give us enough card selection though...
I'd like to play Moat, but it nomboes with Snapcaster Mage / TNN. I want to play E.E. maindeck too, but can't find the space.
I'm also not sure about the CB curve, but I guess not playing Terminus is a good thing for CB, and we have a lot of 3s to counter opposing TNNs:
1s: 18
2s: 7
3s: 8
4s: 3
5s: 4
Sadly we didn't meet at the BoM, because I hadn't read the post where you described yourself in time :/
Tithe is bad, 20 land is also bad. Better off just replace Tithe with more lands.
Has anyone been playing this deck with Veteran explorer (minor green splash)? I've been having extremely good experiences with it, considering the number of lands (especially basics) the deck runs. He acts as a wall in most circumstances (kind of like TNN), and if they get impatient, you ramp up in the land department. Yes, it gives a target to swords to plowshares, but honestly, this deck will usually win if their opponent is playing swords to plowshares.
I have also been playing a UWg landstill hybrid with him, and it's been working fantastic.
I think rather than archtypes, I'll talk about two situations that are bad for us and the decks that are more likely to set up these situations. How good or bad the matchup is depends on how consistently the deck can form one of these situations. However, even a "good" MU (like I'd consider RUG) can have hands that when paired against your hands allow for them to set up a really bad scenario for you. The point of looking at things like this is to see why you actually lose rather than what specific deck you're losing to. Hopefully this will let you be able to see the trap before it closes.
Situation 1: Early pressure and mana denial. This includes decks like Goblins, Death and Taxes, Fish, and all the tempo decks. Because of all our fetches and basics, decks packing Stifle have an advantage compared to pure Wasteland decks. The situation they need to be truly threatening is t1 Delver, backed up by 2-3 pieces of mana denial and a key Pierce or two. Goblins and DNT are also very good at pressuring us this way, possibly even better. Their best setup is something more like t1 Vial into Rishadon Port, although certain hands can make their Wastelands key also. Fish has less of a mana denial plan than the others, but also packs a much faster clock. A couple Wastelands, a Pierce or two, and likely a FoW for our last ditch Terminus backed up by a 3-4 lord hand is basically a nightmare.
The best way to avoid Situation 1 is by playing around Wasteland, playing around Stifle, and playing around Pierce/Daze. Spot removal is very good for their early Delver since it is likely that by the time you find a Terminus they will be sandbagging a FoW. It's almost always better to take an extra 6 rather than have your Swords Pierced. If you reach a point in the game where you have plenty of mana and are able to resolve a sweeper then you will likely be in the driver's seat.
Situation 2: Lots of CA and the ability to ignore Counterbalance. Counterbalance usually puts us on top of any CA fight, however cards like Vial, Cavern of Souls, and Abrupt Decay can make Counterbalance varying degrees of dead. Goblins can formulate this situation much better than any other deck. Their deck generates insane CA with Matrons and Ringleaders and they nearly always ignore Counterbalance because of Vial and Cavern. The other big ones that can form this situation are the GBx midranged decks like Shardless and Jund. Abrupt Decay lets them ignore Counterbalance and their cascades, Hymns, Ancestrals, and Punishing Fire lets them out card us.
The way you get past Situation 2 is by clinging to life until you can Entreat for 3 or more. Going too long against these decks likely means that you'll be whittled down 3 points of damage at a time until you are battling their 5 card hand with the top of your deck. Surprise blocking with Angels is great and sometimes even necessary against these decks, although be aware that GBx will have access to Maelstrom Pulse. Be the combo deck, they probably can't answer you.
OP is crazy outdated. We should probably get someone to fix that eventually. lol I don't know of any good primers, but reading through the last 40-50 pages will give you a really solid idea of what's up.
http://www.twitch.tv/oarsman793) Are there any good streams/videos of people playing this deck well (entertainment value a plus, of course
I'm working on an updated primer. If you're interested in helpjng out, let me know.
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alpha, I might be interested in helping, PM me what you are looking for.
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"K, block with Jotun Grunt?"
"It has pro white."
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"It still has pro white."
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Yeah, let me know what you're looking for.
Haha! I like that idea - not sure if it's actually an improvement, but definitely a creative move. I like the stalling effect and I love the potential mana ramping. Between Jace, and EtA we can spend our extra resources with more oomph than most of our opponents. Plus mass our removal makes up for opponents dropping more threats faster with their extra land. Explorer actually allows for a higher Supreme Verdict count so you can make sure to actually get rid of opposing hordes. Nice side effect: Supreme verdict has become sexier than Terminus anyway in the wake of TNN.
That being said, as with all such additions it's a pain to figure out what to actually cut.
First thing that comes to mind is 1-2 land, which is definitely feasible (minor bonus: this enhances CB)
Here's what I will test in a minute:
4 Explorer (less than 4 makes no sense imo)
4 BS (just realized that 4 additional shuffle effects are actually quite synergetic with BS and Top)
4 Jace
4 CB
4 Top
4 FoW
3 EtA
4 STP
3 Supreme Verdict
2 CS
2 EE
(38)
4 Strand
2 Heath
1 Delta
1 Tarn
2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
6 Island
3 Plains
(22)
SB:
2 Grip
3 Fluster Storm
3 Pierce
3 Terminus
3 RiP
1 Needle
Veteran Explorer is a neat idea, I like it most in the hyper Entreat decks though. Maybe he should be included with 4 Ponders and 4 Entreats to start pumping out a lot of Angels really early. The lack of a decent sacrifice outlet is a bit worrisome, but I imagine there is something out there that could make this work.
Phyrexian Altar. Their turn 3 Entreat for X=3. Seems legit.
The conspiracy goes deeper than you might think.Can I pay you for not posting in this thread?
Desert is actually pretty good at killing your own explorer when it comes down to it. I actually included veteran explorer in my list after I started testing desert, made sense.
The other cool thing about it is that it kills flickerwisps/thalia/revoker, and gets around mother of runes. Although you don't necessarily need help in this field.
Edit: That alter scenario is amazing, but unrealistic and undependable.
Last edited by thefreakaccident; 11-30-2013 at 05:41 PM.
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