This is partially why I am skeptical: Drawing a dead Ancient Grudge (either because they've already gotten too much value off their Vial, or they never drew one) is a dangerous game to play with a deck that denies resources. Having to Brainstorm it away is bad enough, but if you simply can't use the Grudge at all, you're effectively taking a late-game mulligan.Originally Posted by Sasan
Also, you make a good point: boarding into 3 Grudges is almost better than 1-2, since you have a better chance of drawing it while it still matters. Just siding into the 1 or 2 that most of us run seems worse, as you aren't as likely to have it in your opener.
I just was under the impression from my previous experience that killing an early Vial wasn't worth drawing a dead card late. Certainly the uprising of Death and Taxes and the printing of TNN affects that experience though. I'll test out the Ancient Grudges when I get the chance. Unfortunately, it's hard to find a good Legacy player around here, let alone one that runs something Tribal.
I agree with Sasan, the importance of Vial in the mentioned mus is obvious and we should get rid of it asap before the opponent gets valuable momentum swing out of it and before he pulls trick after trick as we don't know beforehand what jumps out of Vial
Also, sometimes it happenes that Vial is their only source of "damage"; once we exchange Swords, Bolts and Wastelands, both decks are in topdeck mode and now all the cmc3 Crusaders/Wisps that would otherwise ruin your day just sit motionless in their hand.
If you are having trouble with Vial but don't want to play Ancient Grudges, try Pithing Needle. Invalidates all Vials from that point on but is also applicable in other situations (naming Jitte/Port vs Death and Taxes, Krenko/Siege Gang vs Goblins, whatever)
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Oh, I forgot: I also play Needle. This way I got three to four cards to fight the Vial while not having a completely dead card in late game. (Against Gobbos don't bring Grip)
Has anyone tried out rancor yet to trample over those 3/1 creatures.
Ouch. Rancor just... isn't quite Tier 1 playable. As an answer to TNN, it's barely passable (at best allowing your Goyfs to squeeze through a few points of damage while you still lose to Jitte/Skull triggers). As a generic card that we have access too, it's just not strong enough to justify taking up SB slots I'm afraid.
Back to the Vial conversation, Pithing Needle is a very good recommendation. I don't run them currently, but I could see squeezing 1 into my SB if I expected a lot of Vial decks. I like Needle a lot more than Grudge, as it's rarely dead, fights other problem cards in the matchup, and also costs less.
To be clear, I'm almost always siding in Artifact hate for DnT, as there are multiple targets. Against Gobbos and Fish though, I'm still not certain I want to throw in my 1 Ancient Grudge as a miser card for their Vial. I will test it out when given the chance though. In anything, I can cut an extra Force of Will for the Ancient Grudge when I'm on the draw, since Force is somewhat dead when they already have Vial.
I tried again to play against Merfolks with TNN, DnT and Goblins. Boarding all grudges (2 in my SB) each time. Played 9 matches, 3 against each archetype. Won 7. You need Grudges vs. DnT, obvious fact. Against Merfolks and Goblins, I've come to the conclusion that I really don't care about drawing a dead card later if grudge did its work destroying vial btw turn 2-4. Sideboarding more Grudges also allows us to sideboard out counterspells comfortably, blanked by cavern of souls in the Goblin MU. I plan to play Destructive Revelry. The ability to destroy enchantments still dealing 2 damage is atttractive, but I feel like the casting cost of RG will be annoying, and losing flashback is a relevant downside. I will test it in a meta filled with tribal decks, miracles and blade decks.
Land an early Delver, ride it to victory. Counter their cantrips. As the game progresses, your taxing counterspells become less effective. You've got 4 FOW, 4 Daze, 2-3 REB/PB, 2-3 Spell Pierce, and Flusterstorm, if you run it.
In order to go off, the Omni tell player is going to need - 1 Show and Tell, 1 Omniscience (or other threat), 1 Enter the Infinite or Cunning Wish (for use w/ Omniscience), and 4-5 counterspells/cantrips/lands.
You've got to land a threat early, deny mana through Wasteland and Stifle, and make sure that you win the counterspell war. Part of winning the counterspell war is countering cantrips to prevent the OmniTell player from gathering combo/protection pieces.
If OmniTell is a huge pain, you can always increase your REB/PB count or run specific hate like V. Clique (in response to Show and Tell), Gilded Drake (steals creatures, but not Omniscience), or Venser, Shaper Savant.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
I thought about Rancor, but the fact that it cannot enchant Mongoose is more than enough to not play the card. Btw, I'm considering to build a RUG Hexproof just for the trollz-lolz, but it's a different story...
Pithing Needle is good for Liliana, DRS, Vial, Jitte, JTMS, Pernicious Deed and sometimes Tarn/Delta. Together with Grudge (that hits Defense Grid) they have lots of applications and if not for the Counterbalance, Batterskull and Rest in Peace,c I'd play two of them... but this way I need one KGrip, sadly.
I'd take misers Grudge everyday all-day against botht Goblinbs and Folks. It hits Vial which is 100% guaranteed they'll have, moreover you may destroy Jitte/Relic.
Bolded part QFT.
Destructive Revelry seems good and I may consider switching/adding it to my sb as long as RiP, Jitte, CotV, BSkull or CB remains presented in my meta. The two dmg hardly ever matters (yes, I know it's good, but w/e), but the flexibility and instant nature (unlike Hull Breach) makes it very interesting choice. I hate to lose flashback, otoh, against non-MUD decks this isn't THAT needed.
@ WW's S&T analyze: well written!
On Saturday I played Thrash Can in what has been a minor dissapointment.
List:
//Qty Name
// Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Forked Bolt
//\\
// Sideboard
2 Rough // Tumble
3 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sulfur Elemental
A phone by Slosh woke me up not an hour before the tournament started. I rushed to the lgs half asleep, hungry and not really clean, as I just thrown myself into the exact dress I was in a pub day before. I had troubles with parking, too, and thus came late to what was an seven-men-one-woman tournament due to the GP Vienna being at the same time.
R1, Tom, Maverick, on draw
g1: I kept seven, he mulled to five. Needless to say, he was really behind. He playeed just Safekeeper of which I didn't take care, Thalia that I Sanred, and a Confi that was Bolted. Delver, double Goyf and Mongoose got there, though delver was StPed.
sb: out some mix of Dazes, Pierces and FoWs, in Roughs, Submerges, Needles and Grudge. I kept Snare as it hits Thalia and SFM.
g2: We both mulled to six. SFM found Jitte and then I Bolted him. I had a brainfart, though, and let Tom untap, so he SFMed Jitte. His other notable cards were Safekeeper and Finks, than he lost to triple Mongoose and SulfEle.
Win, 1:1.
R2, Slosh, ANT, on draw
g1: We both kept our seven, Martin led with GP, CT (double Goyf). I got Mongoose and lately Goyf, somewhere during the game I FoWed Duress before I won.
sb: out 2 Mongooses and 2 FBs, in Pyroblasts and F-storms.
g2: I Fowed CT, then Martin Extirpated FoW and made ten Hoblins. I lost this one.
sb: in two Roughs, out the remaining Mongooses.
g3: I led with Delver but Slosh had Bolt ready. I played two Goyfs, FoWed CT and after he got X. Swarm out, I Pondered into three interesting cards of which I kept Waste to kill his Volc. Thankfully he was unable to combo, so not even XS heleped him.
Win, 2:1
R3, Vojta, D&T, on draw
g1: W both kept our seven. Vojta played MoR that I FBed, then he got a Daze-owl which I Dazed, then we exchanged Wastes. Jitte I FoWed, then I got Goyf while he SFMed for BSK. I Bolted Mystic, then I Bolted Crusader, then He StPed Delver and then after we exchanged another pair of Wastes, I failed to find another removal to remove another Crusader.
sb: in Needles, Grudge and KGrip, Roughs and Elementals, out Dazes and FoWs. I kept SPierce and Snare for RiP, with latter been good for Thalia/SFM, of course.
g2: I started with mongoose. I Snared Knight of White Orchid, then Vojta Wasted my Volc. I Needled Wasteland as I had only Trop and no Stifle. He plyed RIP, I had Delver and Sulfur Elemental which he STtPed. I Stifled one SoFI trigger and Grudged BSK, but lost to the SoFI nevertheless.
Loss, 2:1
R4, Martin, Nic Fit, on draw again and again and again...
Martin CTed my Stifle, thankfully I got another one and Stifled his mana development... esp. after I Wasted his USea. Delver flipped of Bolt, then Mongoose joined the party. I Bolted veteran to open the road. I Snared Stryx, GSZ found another Vet and then Pahntasmal Image made itself a Mongoose. FB killed Stryx and then after a third Stryx I finally lost with Martin on eight and me on eighteen and completely depleted.
sb: Submerges in, out w/e, maybe FoWs
g2: I Pondered and bricked, then I FoWed Veteran and Wasted Martin's Trop. Goyf showed up, so did Vet and after Waste->Bayou and Stifle->Vet, I won.
sb: IDK, but I gues I switched FoWs and Dazes.
g3: I had fast Delver and I Dazed a Stryx. (Guess I did not switch the FoWs...) Delver was Dismembered, then Stryx etb. I BSed, to which Martin responded with N. Thief. Luckily I had FoW. (Looks like I did something silly while sbing.) I Ponderd into nothing, then I Wasted his Tower and scooped after an Intuition fro triple EW.
Horrible matchup.
Loss, 2:2.
Hm. I was third, though. At least I think so.
Things I'd change: I think that the 2dmg bolt the RFGs the target might be used instead of FB. But mostly I decided I won't care much of Nic Fit, a horrendeous yet rare matchup.
I also think about Assault // Battery which is a Sorc Bolt no worse than FB, or a crappy creature in time of need for a crappy creature. It kills the DRS just like FB and is quite the same in D+T mu, although it's worse against active MoR but w/e, this mu is won by SulfEle, Rough and Grudge.
EDIT: Another interesting card is Boom / Bust; early on it's a Stone Rain (or crappy Raze), in late game it may win against UW Miracles or Nic Fit. Sadly it's too expensive, but with all our duals and unused Wastes, this might be playable. But Winter Orb is better and yet it's unplayed.
...also Mother of Runes, Rishadan Port, Stoneforge, Wasteland, just to name a few more out of DnT. I'm also running a KGrip in my board, and I like that it can come in against SneakShow and OmniTell. But I'll find a spot to fit the 1st Needle in my board for testing purposes.
Again, I'll take your advice to heart, but still disagree on the 100% guarantee. Tribal decks normally have no way to dig into their deck, and they can't just mulligan every hand without Vial, nor is it very relevant past the first few turns of the game. But if Grudge really is that good, as consensus here says it is, then it's worth having it even when they don't present a target.
I was not precise - I meant it's 100% guaranteed they'll haveit in deck. Not in play, of course.
Ah, roger dodger.I was not precise - I meant it's 100% guaranteed they'll haveit in deck. Not in play, of course.
Hi guys, I posted some days ago, thanks for all the answers :)
I wanted to ask your for some advice about my meta. I'm playing the standard list with 2 Pierces, 2 Probes, 1 Chain lighting and 1 Forked Bolt in the flexible slots.
My SB is:
3 Pyroblast
3 Submerge
2 Rough
2 Graffdigger's Cage
1 Life from the Loam
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
My meta consists on a lot of creature decks, not so aggro but mindrange, some control decks and little combo.
Also I have my doubts on how to sideboard. I have lots of cards in the SB against, let's say, Maverick or Blade control, s it correct to side in 8-10 cards or does it affect the consistency of the deck? Which cards are the better to side out? I normally take out the counterspells.
Thank you, I would appreciate any advice :)
hey you can read my primer in the bUrg tempo
thread with detailed sideboard guide. It is really close to RUG Delver so you can easy adapt that sideboard plan for RUG, especially you get to know which cards are bad in which matchups and can be boarded out.
Thanks I'm reading it :)
Any comments on the pther questions? Thank you
What a shameless plug Sasan!
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
I'm super confused by Jace. Not that it's bad card, but it's so anti-tempo choice...
Well, seems to work for some players as a mid-/lategame strategy in mu's that tend to go longer and don't attack/denial your manabase that extreme way. Others have Sylvan Library in that slot.
This is what I understand, but I'm still sooo unsure about it's includement.
However, unlike Library it's a wincon that doesn't eat away your life total, and in mus like Storm, it may win the game on it's own. Especially mixed with LftL, it may work wonders - you got both mana for Jace, and also pretty strong Jacestorms, if only you dredge whenever needed.
So yeah, definitely use him, if he suits yourstyle.
Btw, isn't three REBs one too many? TNN or not, this seems like an overkill.
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