[Deck] Death and Taxes

[razvan]

There's not a single deck that's fair. Not a single deck. Even the two most "fair" decks, Goblins and Elves...

Goblins can put a turn 1 Lackey, then keep you off your mana until turn 3-4, where you die.

Elves... well, fuck Elves. At the champs, my round 2 elf opponent ruined me. Faster than Sneak and Show.

There's no such thing as fair. I don't know why Combo is considered less fair than other decks. DnT might be considered fair by some... but I certainly don't feel it's fair on either side of the board. I ran Jund, Shardless Agent, and other decks that are unfair against it... and it's like a concrete wall.

I guess even if you are Bruce Lee, a concrete wall might be considered unfair.

If you kids don't stop your arguing I will turn this thread around.

AND WE ARE GOING BACK TO WINNIPEG!

[Jitse]

There's not a single deck that's fair. Not a single deck. Even the two most "fair" decks, Goblins and Elves...

Goblins can put a turn 1 Lackey, then keep you off your mana until turn 3-4, where you die.

Elves... well, fuck Elves. At the champs, my round 2 elf opponent ruined me. Faster than Sneak and Show.

There's no such thing as fair. I don't know why Combo is considered less fair than other decks. DnT might be considered fair by some... but I certainly don't feel it's fair on either side of the board. I ran Jund, Shardless Agent, and other decks that are unfair against it... and it's like a concrete wall.

I guess even if you are Bruce Lee, a concrete wall might be considered unfair.


AND WE ARE GOING BACK TO WINNIPEG!

to be fair (not intended to be a joke) elves and goblins are a lot less fair then Jund, Maverick and Death and Taxes. Goblins are still quite fair but elves is one of the least fair decks in legacy. I disagree with death and taxes being unfair because wasteland or thalia I think both are pretty fair magic cards.

[Mammutti]

Every single deck in legacy is designed to hinder or completely shut down your opponent's game plan, or designed to go off faster than it can be disrupted. I mean, losing is never very fun exactly. I find losing to Belcher, Miracles and Pox far more frustrating than losing to SnT or DnT. It is completely subjective.

Short reports:

Made top 8 at a local tournament a couple of weeks ago. (30+ people)

I played against:

Death and Taxes 1-1-1
Reanimator 2-0
Miracles 2-1
Miracles 2-1
Elves 0-2
Team America 2-1
4-1-1

Lost in the top8 to MUD. Punted pretty hard there. I playtested the match up against the same guy afterwards and the mu doesn't feel bad at all. Just keep them off their mana development. They have too many juicy Revoker targets.

Another local tournament where I came 1st (12ppl):

UWR Delver 1-1-1
Merfolk 2-1
Death and Taxes 2-0
BUG Delver Nemesis 2-1
3-0-1

And one more weekly legacy 2nd place finish.

Affinity 2-0
UR Painter 2-0
Elves 0-2
RUG Delver 2-1
3-1

Decklist:

1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
10 Snow-Covered Plains

4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Serra Avenger
2 Aven Mindcensor

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Cataclysm
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Moat

I find this creature suite to work pretty well in the current meta. Not missing Crusaders at all. Mangaras, on the other hand, a little bit. Mindcensor has been very underwhelming. I can't remember if it shined even once during those matches. My Elves opp found a Craterhoof when I Mindcensored him in response to a NO. And all the other instances where I tried to prevent fetching, the land was on top anyway. But even more awkward are the situations where you don't Port your opponent and basically just give away free information. However, I still don't feel like cutting him because of the utility against Infernal Tutor, SFMystic, NOrder, GSZenith, Intuition and Fetches. But I dislike the fact that you can not count on him the same way you can count on Thalia, Canonist and Revoker. At least he can block a Delver - once.. Maybe we just have to wait for another broken weenie to be printed.

I'm running a singleton Disenchant from the sideboard which has been MVP for me. Hitting everything from equipments to Chalice of the Voids. I think 1 is enough though. Moat did nothing and needs to be cut. I saw it a couple of times against Nemesis decks but frankly, our fliers can out race him anyway. I'm not too afraid of Nemesis. Just play as many fliers as possible.

Ratchet Bomb is a card that I have mixed feelings about. It has been at its best against flipped Delvers. I believe there must be better options. I'm keeping that one for the time being.

What would you suggest for the Mindcensor dilemma? AND what would you suggest we do against Elves? It is by far our worst match up. I'm thinking about Grafdigger's Cage instead of that Moat. Maybe we just have to suck it up and accept you can't beat everything. Anyway thanks for reading and keep up with the amazing deck!

Cheers

[Barbed Blightning]

I'd cut censor, he's been lackluster to say the least. If we get a two drop version of him, I'd consider playing it.

Bombs are actually very good vs Elves, as you only need to tick it up once. Cage is also very useful at slowing them. Moat will never be viable in this deck, IMO.

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[Penguinizer]

@Penguinizer: I highly recommend you drop the second Sword (which one depends on your meta) and add the Batterskull...the Batterskull is a staple of the deck and will save your life (points) at the most amazing times. Also, the Flagstones need to go away. For your sideboard, the Oblivion Rings are too numerous. Use a creature that exiles stuff instead. You will find that Thalia may block you from casting the Rings when you need them, and the Rings don't work with Aether Vial. For your two open slots, you might consider Wilt-Leaf Liege. This is a mainstay of most D&T sideboards.

I don't have Batterskull because the store never actually has one and I never get around to ordering one by mail. If I make the last 2 sideboard cards Wilt-leaf Liege, how many O-Rings should I change into the creature versions (Fiend Hunter primarily)? I could also cut down on the Aven Mindcensors if need be.

[2Rach]

I'd cut censor, he's been lackluster to say the least. If we get a two drop version of him, I'd consider playing it.

Leonin Arbiter

[Barbed Blightning]

Leonin Arbiter

I ran him for a bit, but the tax is pointless vs Elves, which is why we run Censor. Though I do remember a NO RUG deck losing hardcore when all he had was a fistful of fetches (Tony Chu maybe?)

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[Penguinizer]

I used to play Leonin Arbiter when Survival was a thing. I haven't really been impressed with him since though.

[anakyn]

Are you seriously bemoaning an opponent's abilitiy to stifle your own game plan while deploying their own? That's what Legacy is all about.
You, my friend, should read this article. http://www.starcitygames.com/article...ir-Unfair.html

Never said anything about "fairness" regarding the decks I commented, so I don't how this article has to do it with the opinion I expressed.
If you find where I said Canadian was "fair", or anything about some relationship about "fairness" and "funny", I'll gladly answer your remarks.

If you really read what I wrote, you would have found out that imho, fairness / unfairness is not the point when I consider how much a deck can be "toxic" for Legacy metagame.

TNN is a card usually played by "fair" decks, still it's toxic.

And if we have to talk about D&T "fairness", even if I don't think that's what matters most, I find this deck to be one the most unfair in the meta.

The problem as I can see it is not about being unfair, but how you are being unfair.

[Barbed Blightning]

Never said anything about "fairness" regarding the decks I commented, so I don't how this article has to do it with the opinion I expressed.

If you find where I said Canadian was "fair", or anything about some relationship about "fairness" and "funny", I'll gladly answer your questions.

It seems to me I said quite the opposite to be honest, but it doesn't matter.

Anakyn! Zilla said he was going to turn this thread around! You don't want to go back to Winnipeg, do you? It's so cold there this time of year.

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[anakyn]

Anakyn! Zilla said he was going to turn this thread around! You don't want to go back to Winnipeg, do you? It's so cold there this time of year.

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I'm sorry, I just don't understand why this discussion should be considered toxic for the thread.
But I'll adapt to that and mute myself. Still better than being muted by others.

By the way, I edited my last post after you quoted it.


Regards and have fun with any deck you choose.

(and for the record: my favorites, if only I could know how to play them properly, would be High Tide and Lands. Unfortunately I'm bad at this game, and I have to play noobish decks like Jund. That's life I guess)

[DavidHernandez]

I don't have Batterskull because the store never actually has one and I never get around to ordering one by mail. If I make the last 2 sideboard cards Wilt-leaf Liege, how many O-Rings should I change into the creature versions (Fiend Hunter primarily)? I could also cut down on the Aven Mindcensors if need be.

I understand. Maybe you can trade for one while your online order ships....you really need the Batterskull. Two O-Rings might be okay. A previous poster ran two, and I actually run two also. I also run a Disenchant, which I agree is MVP. But I'm considering dropping these for creatures that have similar abilities, because that's what D&T is really about -- special abilities on creatures that allow you to lock your opponent while swinging for damage.

[Penguinizer]

I understand. Maybe you can trade for one while your online order ships....you really need the Batterskull. Two O-Rings might be okay. A previous poster ran two, and I actually run two also. I also run a Disenchant, which I agree is MVP. But I'm considering dropping these for creatures that have similar abilities, because that's what D&T is really about -- special abilities on creatures that allow you to lock your opponent while swinging for damage.

Sideboard:
3x Rest in Peace
2x Aven Mindcensor
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Cataclysm
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
2x Fiend Hunter

I 2x O-Ring 2x Fiend Hunter split seems solid. I want to have some o-rings just in case. I'm considering cutting the 2 Aven Mindcensors but they're handy in the niches they fit.

[DavidHernandez]

I am also looking at Leonin Relic-Warder x 2 for the board, and 2 Imposing Sovereign. I have a terrible time against Elves and Sneak Show, and I think the Sovereign will solve the problems. Just need that extra turn to win the match sometimes.

I didn't like Leonin Arbiter because is sometimes shut down my own ability to use Stoneforge Mystic, but it's an interesting card.

[Penguinizer]

I am also looking at Leonin Relic-Warder x 2 for the board, and 2 Imposing Sovereign. I have a terrible time against Elves and Sneak Show, and I think the Sovereign will solve the problems. Just need that extra turn to win the match sometimes.

I was also considering Leonin Relic-Warder but Oblivion Ring+Fiend Hunter means I always have a creature removal out of them against S&T. That and I didn't want to put in a third order in a row at the shop. Imposing Sovereign doesn't seem that impressive to me. It just seems incredibly limited.

[DavidHernandez]

...Imposing Sovereign doesn't seem that impressive to me. It just seems incredibly limited.

Yes, it does seem limited. I have not heard or read reports of anyone using it. Elves! and Sneak Show are the reasons I would run it. I can't seem to beat Elves! at all, even with 2 or 3 Mirran Crusader's, and it's often one or two turns I need to win. Vs. Sneak Show, one turn can be the deciding factor.

Has anyone tested Imposing Sovereign?

Thanks,
Dave

[Barbed Blightning]

Yes, it does seem limited. I have not heard or read reports of anyone using it. Elves! and Sneak Show are the reasons I would run it. I can't seem to beat Elves! at all, even with 2 or 3 Mirran Crusader's, and it's often one or two turns I need to win. Vs. Sneak Show, one turn can be the deciding factor.

Has anyone tested Imposing Sovereign?

Thanks,
Dave

Weird you should mention it, but I, too, have considered Sovereign and posted on the Salvation about it earlier today. Limited it may be, but no more so than Mindcensor or Revoker for that matter. Let's test it out!

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[DavidHernandez]

Weird you should mention it, but I, too, have considered Sovereign and posted on the Salvation about it earlier today. Limited it may be, but no more so than Mindcensor or Revoker for that matter. Let's test it out!

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I agree. I just ordered 4 and will put 2 or 3 in the board, or two in the board and one in the main. Nothing says "I love you" to the opponent more than main deck hate.

[Finn]

Anakyn, I want to thank you for your comments. I hope that you have not been scared off. When all is said and done, we may look back upon this as an excellent conversation. I have benefited by reading your perspective on facing this deck, and I hope to read more of it. This is ours:

I think a lot of D+T players cackle inside when we think about sticking it to all the powerful decks. I agree with you that this deck wins ugly. I thought a lot about your words, and yeah. I can see what you mean. D+T holds a deck back just enough to keep it from doing its thing. It must be annoying to face that. If you let powerful decks execute their plans without having a monkey wrench handy, they will certainly beat you. D+T has weak cards, after all. But it uses them to expose those decks for the houses of cards that they are. It starts with plenty of part-time mana disruption. But that can't last forever, so the deck has to back it up with other methods of keeping an opponent off-balance until it can sieze the upper-hand or force through enough damage in combat. When facing D+T:

Their cantrips are not assets.
They do not simply resolve Reanimate, Show and Tell, or Empty the Warrens and win.
A greedy manabase is no longer stable.
They can not include just the bare minimum of removal and expect their counterspells to pick up the slack.
Graveyards are not freely available.
...etc.

Most decks in Legacy live and die on assumptions about the environment that D+T alters. The best cards in the format are often terrible against D+T because it makes them that way on purpose. And yeah, when they are made to pay for those assumptions, it gets ugly. Don't count on those sorts of things and D+T can't hurt you.

Legacy is the best format because an anti-deck like this can exist and succeed in a field of overpowered stuff. I think that is beautiful.

[berry]

After posting earlier I wen't on to start the 40-something (let's say 45 for good measure) tournament 4-0 (won against Team America, Shardless, UR & Affinity) only to get paired down and have to play against UWR Delver which I lost terribly to a TNN with an equipped Jitte x2. Drew into top8 and lost in the quarters to eventual winner playing Esperblade in a tight game 3, but again TNN + batterskull did the job for him.

A sidenote: Wescoes SB-tips from his article must actually for sure be pre-TNN, which was kind of hilarious when it said that I should board in 2 Ratchet Bomb against Esperblade (assuming Lingering Souls, I guess) - so I had to wing it a bit.

Generally, deck was amazing, as always. Avenger is the MVP, stick a vial or mother T1 and you win, etc. Played a singleton Mirran Crusader that won me games vs BUG (delv), BUG (shardless) and Esperblade but I STILL did NOT like it very much, actually. It felt winmore in those situations, usually. But even worse than it were the Mindcensors... Sure, I could sneak it in against an unflipped Delver or to trade with a flipped one in some terrible situation, but I never really got to "get" someone with them and never really felt it was the right play anyway. I am thinking more and more that these should be 2 Mangaras. They are a main deck-answer to TNN + equipment, since this gameplan of TNN-decks take quite a lot of time (resolve SFM, resolve TNN and then equip - usually after killing a revoker) and Mangara can get some work done then. Besides, she's (he?) just so cute.

When it came to the sideboard I'm really starting to question the Cataclysms, but maybe it's just my metagame? I never play miracles, I felt no reason to board it in against ANY blade deck (SFM + TNN = they can leave TNN + equipment or whatever) and it was OK against Shardless once I got to resolve it. I mean, sure, we have a 12-post player, but come on... This opens up slots for answer to the problems we (or only I?) have most of all, the TNN + equip - thinking 1 Disenchant & 1 Manriki-Gusari! But I'm interested in all of youz tech, too.

P.S. Why have I not seen anyone play Sunlance anymore? Is it only for me this card is amazing?

P.P.S. Ratchet Bomb has been surprisingly decent for me. Besides being absolutely bonkers vs Elves it kills Delver + Grim Lavamancer on 1 and SFM + Jitte on 2 versus UWR Delver. Sure, it hurts your own stuff but it's your card, you should be able to shape your game around it.

EDIT: Hit me after writing this that I might want to up my Avenger-count to 4 like some of you already have. Might cut the singleton Mirran Crusader or the second Mangara/Mindcensor-slot.