I recently put JUND together after playing JUND NicFit for a while. I like it a lot, especially having threats early and a reasonable clock.
In reading his thread I have seen many people espousing the power of the punishing fire plan, I have found it incredibly slow. Even against decks like elves and merfolk, situations which seem like tailor made for pfire, it never seems good. Am I crazy in wanting to cut the fires/groves for more bolts/ better land base? In the games i have played, every time i draw pfire it never seems good.
It's a meta-decision. Punishing Fire is also very good against Miracles (slow grind - ping them for a point per turn) and against Planeswalkers in general. It's also good against DRS.Originally Posted by Baconus
The earlier versions of JUND ran 4 Lightning Bolts and Grim Lavamancers. Recently, the Lightning Bolt count and Grim Lavamancers have been exchanged for Punishing Fire.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
It is slow, but it is inevitability which is why PF is played. It negates Liliana of the Veil, kills, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, kills nearly all problematic x/1 or x/2 creatures in the format and offers an additional, albeit incredibly slow, win condition. It also, wins Goyf wars too.
In regards to whether or not to run it, it's your call. Lightning Bolt is more damage for less mana but you can't recur it. As for Grove of the Burnwillows effecting the manabase, I've not found it myself. Having them in actually fixes my mana regularly as they offer us access to 2 of our 3 colors anyway, although I do have to give my opponent life from time to time to do so.
How do you guys board against the True-name nemesis and Stoneforge mystic decks running around all over the place? I can't figure out what to board out. Before true-name, I basically just boarded in a single ancient grudge and maybe a deed/maelstrom pulse and had inevitability for days. Now, I feel like I am just playing to answer True-name or bust. Usually, the first true-name dies to lili, but some combination of golgari charm/deed/plague/reb/pyroblast needs to be added from my sideboard, but what to board out?
My standard decklist:
4 dark confidant
4 deathrite shaman
4 tarmogoyf
3 bloodbraid elf
1 Scavenging ooze/deed/eternal witness/maelstrom pulse - I've been liking ooze a lot lately, but played witness in that slot for many months before getting my fourth lili and was very happy with it all around.
4 liliana of the veil
4 thoughtseize
3 hymn
3 abrupt decay
3 punishing fire
2 lightning bolt
1 life from the loam - This could be a maindeck toxic deluge I guess...Can I run a 5th lili and hope to not get deck checked?
1 sylvan library
23 Lands are pretty standard. 4 wasteland, 3 grove yadda yadda.
My sideboard at the last scg was:
3 duress
2 mindbreak trap
1 reb
1 pyroblast
1 plague
1 deed
1 golgari charm
1 jitte
1 ancient grudge
1 pyroclasm
1 surgical extraction
1 maelstrom pulse
I'd like to bring in golgari charm, deed, plague and 2 reb effects...
Do I board out hymns? They are typically really good against these type of high impact spell type decks and makes stoneforge typically 1/2 that gets chumped by my goyfs. I guess I don't need the deed most of the time. I think 2 reb 2 golgari charm and dropping the jitte and boarding out 3 hymn 1 life from the loam. Or I could always board out bolt and go -2 bolt -1 loam -1 hymm +2 reb +2 golgari charm and rely more on the punishing fire plan to clean up the other dudes for lili to eat true-names... Thoughts?
If anyone wants to talk privately and in depth about this deck feel free to pm me here. I am pretty open minded about things to try.
Co-Founder of Team Awesome - I heard Randy Buehler say a while back that good players give themselves the most number of turns to find the answer.
The Source on MTGO - Predator8785 and RockOut
First of all, keep in mind one thing. My suggestions are my suggestions that fit my play-style and my way of playing. Sometimes that will not work for others, so take everything I say with a bit of analysis.
Let's look at your sideboard:
3 duress
2 mindbreak trap
1 reb
1 pyroblast
1 plague
1 deed
1 golgari charm
1 jitte
1 ancient grudge
1 pyroclasm
1 surgical extraction
1 maelstrom pulse
Clearly the cards that are relevant are the 2 REBs, Golgari Charm, Plague, Deed, as well as Grudge/Pulse to take care of equipment. Jitte is there to theoretically race it once it gets going without equipment.
So 5 cards need to go in. I wouldn't bother with Grudge, but Pulse could be alright. Grudge is good, but you would need to take out way too much, and Pulse can hit other things too.
I would take out Life from the Loam and Sylvan Library. It sucks not having Library, but you need space. I would also shave off a bit of discard, maybe cut 1-2 Thoughtseize. Yes, TS can take out Nemesis, but your goal, if you cannot kill it, is to race it with Deathrite Shamans and the like. Drawing a TS when the race is on is a bad deal. Hymn can hit TNN as well, and they are fantastic, so keep those.
So that's 4, and maybe another Thoughtseize for the 5th card. If you really want Maelstrom Pulse, maybe take out a Bolt (HERESY!) or a Punishing Fire. The latter is less heretical, but either way is fine. Punishing Fire, if unchecked, can eventually clean out their board.
Be extremely careful with your Lilianas. Make sure that they hit the board and are able to kill Nemesis.
I'm running 2x Golgari Charm and 1x Diabolic Edict as almost exclusive answers for TNN. I will then board an Ancient Grudge - I already run 2x Maelstrom Pulse main so I don't really need anything else. Edict is usually the weakest card out of the two options as I've found as they tend to get fodder in the way and I get unlucky not finding removal, it does help against those decks that still run Geist of Saint Traft though. Pernicious Deed is another thought, although I tend not to like running Deed as it often hurts us just as much - even more a lot of the time.
@rockout:
The matchup with TNN and SFM decks tend to be grindy. I typically board out discard since they become less effective topdecks the later the game goes on. Also, these decks tend to be threat light so I prefer to have cards that change the board rather than my opponent's hand (e.g., Thoughtseize may not cause my opponent to discard TNN since they can Brainstorm in response to hide it or they may just not have one in hand).
On the play:
-4 Thoughtseize, +2 REB/Pyroblast (kill TNN on the stack and kill Jace), +1 Ancient Grudge (for equipment), +1 Golgari Charm (kills TNN, kills Rest in Peace, and can counter Supreme Verdict or spot removal)
On the draw:
-3 Hymn, and maybe -1 land (if they are not running Wasteland) or -1 Scavenging Ooze/Eternal Witness (your opponent will probably be bringing in Rest in Peace), +2 REB/Pyroblast, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Golgari Charm
Some other cards you can consider running in the board are Massacre (also very good against Death and Taxes, Maverick, and Thalia Goblins), Diabolic Edict (good against active Mother of Runes, Dark Depths combo, and Renaimator/Sneak and Show), or Toxic Deluge.
Last edited by o_boogie; 12-08-2013 at 04:12 PM.
This is really good information guys. I truly appreciate it.
Same basic question for rug delver. I went to a SCG a few weekends ago and realized my board plan is just atrocious. I boarded poorly, played even worse and proceeded to lose my second round to go into the 3-2 bracket...
How do you guys tackle RUG Delver side boarding?
Co-Founder of Team Awesome - I heard Randy Buehler say a while back that good players give themselves the most number of turns to find the answer.
The Source on MTGO - Predator8785 and RockOut
I usually board out 4 Thoughtseize for 1 Decay (I play 3 Decay main plus a 4th in the board) and 3 Pyroblast.
When I'm on the draw I board 3 Hymns out too, in which case I board in also a Nihil spellbomb, a Loam and the 4th Bloodbraid.
Another card I could board in as a 1-of (I play 2 in the board), maybe in place of a single Confidant, is Chains of Mephistopheles, which would seem pretty great when Canadian is in topdeck mode to negate its cantrips.
Lately Canadian matchups has improved in my experience; the card I'm most frightened of is Divert but luckily most RUG decks don't play it.
@rockout
The RUG matchup may seem frustrating at first, but once you adjust to playing around Daze and Stifle this matchup heavily favors the Jund player. Based on your decklist here is how I would sideboard:
On the play:
-4 Thoughtseize, +1 REB, +1 Pyro, +1 Pulse, +1 Jitte
On the draw:
-3 Hymn, +1 REB, +1 Pyro, +1 Pulse
REB/Pyro shines here since it can kill/counter a Delver, counter a cantrip, or counter a Submerge. The Pulse is good for killing a Delver/Goyf and Sulfuric Vortex. On the play Jitte is pretty insane, but is a bit durdly on the draw if they curve out with threats and you are way behind on board advantage.
Like Razvan said, these suggestions best fit my style and are not necessarily correct. Against certain fair decks I prefer to take out Hymn on the draw since it kind of sucks to Hymn your opponent when you are behind on board advantage (e.g., your opponent has a flipped Delver and a Goyf and you have nothing on the board).
You may also want to consider Nihil Spellbomb as a sideboard option against RUG since it make their Mongeese 1/1.
At the GP, I ran 3x Golgari Charm and 1x Edict in the board. That seemed to be enough for true name, but I also did not see it much even against decks that I thought would be running it.
I also foudn the RUG Delver matchup to be incredibly annoying, moreso because people were telling me I should havea good matchup vs it. I think that is one matchup that I will be playtesting much more in the future.
RUG delver WAS a good match-up early on. I am not sure what has changed, but it did.
I think it's also more that they play Stifles, which they didn't when I first played. If you, for a fact, know they do not have Stifle, it becomes a lot easier.
Their super-openers can still be incredibly tough to deal with, if they curve out perfectly and you can't deal with their threats, while they Wasteland you and Daze/Snare your stuff, but without Stifle, being able to hit your land drops can very quickly get you out of their hands.
Also, winning the die roll seems to be the key. Game 1, opening on Deathrite Shaman is virtually unbeatable, because they need to answer it or just about lose. The deck is very good at dealing 20 damage, and every damage after is a whole new game.
So, win the die roll, hope they don't have Stifle, resolve a Deathrite Shaman and side in Golgari Charms :)
I feel exactly the same way. Tested against Canadian Thresh the other day and lost around five games in a row. I had a couple free mulligans too. The C Thresh deck did run Stifles.
Did you feel as though you were on the defensive the entire time? I have found that when playing an aggressive punishing fire deck such as jund or punishing maverick there will be a point at which you "stabilize" and they are unable to eek through those last points of damage.
I also have 2 choke in my sideboard, though I am on maverick and not jund, not sure if choke is commonplace in jund decks. Choke will give you free wins vs tempo pretty often.
I have had choke in the sb and It can help, I think the main plan at beating rug/ tempo is to play around stifle and daze. Also fetch basics when you can I'll use my fetch on the play and get a basic to set up plays down the road even is I have nothing to play. Make sure to save decay for goyf, lili for goose, and fire for delver. Best case scenario but I play 4 of each.
On another note what are people doing against elves? I am testing 4 grafdiggers cage to see if it helps then ill cut down if needed. I have dulge in the sb as well and have been testing golgari charm md and am liking it!!! A lot!! With all the TNN running around its funny when they are shocked I play it md. Also it's a boss on mom late game where bolt you need it t1!
I'd say the Canadian matchup should be slightly favorable for us, something like 55-45%.
While it's not true it's a "great" matchup like someone keeps saying, it's still good enough for Jund to have the edge.
The main issue is experience and knowing what/how to board IMHO.
I found myself boarding out discard most of the time: someone keeps Tourach in when he's on the play, but Divert can just completely wreck us so I prefer not to run this risk. Also they play Brainstorm, so discard tends to be less effective anyway.
There was a time when I boarded out Confidants instead of Hymns, but I changed my mind because an early Bob is a threat they must answer somehow, otherwise our card advantage becomes too strong with all the answers we pack.
Also bring in more removal if you got it, REB/Pyro of course, and any form or graveyard hate.
If you have space and you play them in the sideboard, a single Chains of Mephistopheles can seal the deal if you land it when Canadian is in topdeck mode, but maybe it's just too cute.
The experience factor:
- always try to play around Stifle: fetch on your turn if they're tapped out, fetch on their upkeep otherwise, keep REB/Pyro to counter the Stifle
- don't run into Wasteland if you can: fetch for basics in the first turns
- you can't possibly play around Daze all the time, because if they start strong you have to do something or just die. But I'd try to bait Daze on your creatures, so maybe the coast will be clear for your removal. In other words, I think removal > creatures in this matchup
- play defensive: NEVER try to race them, try to stabilize in the mid game instead
- try to save Decays for Goyfs; use burn on Delver if you can choose which removal to play
- keep in mind that their best threat vs Jund is not Goyf nor Delver, it's Mangoose: you'll lose way more games to Mangoose than to Delver/Goyf, mainly because you have lots of cards to deal with Goyf/Delver, but realistically only Liliana/Goyf (and Deathrite to some extent) to deal with Mangoose. Also: your best answer (Decay) isn't available for Mangoose, and both Liliana and Goyf are vulnerable (to Pierce / Stifle / Submerge), and that's why I play 4 Bloodbraids in game 2&3: in addition to the card advantage they provide, they also trade with Mangoose
- sticking a Liliana in the mid/late game should be game over, so protect her with any means possible: for example, if you have REB/Pyro and Liliana in your hand, I'd wait to have a red mana open when trying to resolve Liliana, that way you can react to a Pierce / Daze / Stifle.
The point is: they HAVE to slow you down because Jund has plenty of removal for their threats and has a far more powerful mid/late game. And they WILL slow you down.
Just try not to be slowed too much, and bait their counters on your less valuable resources.
If they have the perfect hand they will win anyways, but that's the same for almost any deck facing Canadian.
I'm a big fan of Surgical Extraction effects against Canadian. Extracting any one of their threats turns the MU into a one-sided battle. Not to mention, if you manage to extract their Tropical Islands, well... they don't like that one bit. Surgical is a must answer card for them, so they need to counter it or they lose and countering it puts them heavily on the back foot against us as it means that their disruption is being used to defend them rather than disrupt us - the fact that it is essentially free to cast for us means that it plays around Daze and, well it's just fun to see their face when you cast it.
Anakyn: Thanks for the advice! I will be sure to keep that in mind the next time I am testing the delver matchup. No one seems to play it at my shop though, so I will have to test against it outside of tourneys.
Why not run Extirpate instead then? I know there are a few matchups where Surgical is better, but it always bothered me that every list I looked at used surgical extraction without really explaining why they chose it over Extirpate. The choice doesn't seem that obvious to me. Am I missing something? Obviously, playing for free is pretty good, but I found split second to be pretty valuable vs. decks like reanimator and delver.
Some folks are telling me Jund is poorly positioned right now, I just thought I would bring this question up to the thread for some good discussion. Because to me it seems that Jund has all the tool to fight the meta.
I haven't been playing Jund so I'm asking THE SOURCE
Extirpate is a perfectly fine choice too. I just find that the ability to cast Extraction for free fits better with me as I tend to tap out a lot, it also bates out counterspells sometimes which can be useful. Although, sometimes it gets countered when you depend on it sticking, which can be annoying so it's very much a personal preference slot really. I was just mentioning that it was a useful card vs Can Thresh.
I don't know about other metas but it's fine for mine. I've heard the same, I guess it depends on how much combo your meta is seeing. Show and Tell and combo heavy metas will automatically be a terribad environment for Jund, but, I do my best to acknowledge this in my main and SB by securing up these MUs as much as possible. I run 4x Thoughtseize and 4x Inqusition of Kozilek main as I like the information they give and IoK is just much easier to cast than Hymn to Tourach when I tend to need my disruption. I also run 2x Pyroblast, 2x Red Elemental Blast and 4x Duress in my SB so I do as well as Jund can do vs combo. Obviously, if my meta was predominantly combo I'd pick up another deck but Jund has a lot of answers for nearly every deck I tend to face and I'm familiar with the deck so I tend to play well with it.
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