Ponder has been tested, I would suggest going back and reading the forms. It has been talked about before.
instant discard is always sweet. Can't knock that.
As far as the red version goes. I figured you had the most knowledge of the deck. So if any one would be able to play it, would it not be you?
Please provide a list if you want critiques. Since I recently returned to U/G I feel I can give you some updated advice about card choices. As a reference, this is my current list:Originally Posted by Postman
// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [US] Show and Tell
2 [10E] Pithing Needle
2 [M12] Ponder
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 4 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 2 [PLC] Venarian Glimmer
SB: 2 [CMD] Oblivion Stone
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
I think what is pivotal to understand is that Turbo Eldrazi is NOT a combo deck or a tempo deck. It is a control deck, and a specific type of control deck, one that doesn't counter spells or try to address cards one-for-one. If you are maintaining parity with your opponents, you will lose to decks that sacrifice card advantage for extreme tempo. Another way of thinking of the deck is, it is the ultimate grindy midrange deck.
With that in mind, I can address why the cards listed have been found lacking in testing:
Meekstone - While this card has the potential to be bonkers if True-Name and Delver become un-racable, repeal, show and tell, and titan are currently sufficient. Also the vulnerability to removal/sb hate, or simple sorcery speed are too great in my testing. Of all the cards mentioned, this one is the least-bad, especially if running trinket mage.
Ghostly Flicker - Oh did I test the hell out of this card. More crop rotations, so many flicker tricks in a deck of triggers/top tricks! Sadly it is too little too late. For 2 mana it would be a bomb, at 3 mana, it is too clunky sadly. It is the epitome of a card that is only good when winning, the opposite of what you need in midrange.
Maze of Ith - I used to run this in a merfolk era, but ultimately completely missing land drops is horrid. With True Name lurking, it becomes even worse.
Snap - I still test this card intermittently, if I feel the need for repeal 5-6, I would include it md over some candelabras. I would certainly make sure I run trinket mage with it, since you need a baseline creature target choice.
Post your list!
I can't help but think Venarian Glimmer is too slow and mana intensive (I know this sounds strange for a 12-post deck). By the time you can cast this spell, usually it will be too late and it doesn't even cantrip.
For example, if you're playing vs. Storm the ideal card to take would be Infernal Tutor or Burning Wish. This card would come out turn 3 at its earliest and you have to go first. Since the opponent is likely going to combo off turn 2, this card is too slow. If you do cast this spell, you're already winning.
If you're playing vs. Show and Tell variants, they usually cast their spell faster than you can land Venarian Glimmer. If they are Sneak and Tell they probably sided Show and Tell out but they are still faster.
Is there something I am missing about this card that makes it good? I'm sticking with the RUG version but this just doesn't seem as good as it should be.
12-post Discord: https://discord.gg/QxYVg3g
I used to run ponder circa late 2009 over Show and Tell, so I have always kept it on the backburner as a card option. Going lower land count hurts the major competitor of ponder, that being Trinket Mage, so the testing/transition was normal.
I enjoy the red archetype, but the clunkiness of the added color meant mana instability and extremely difficult hand fixing/mulligan choices. The deck worked, and the archetype is not dead in those colors, but playing it required extreme skill, and often I would be thinking about plays for hours after events still trying to determine if and ultimately how I misplayed them while the deck was giving me what I needed. It was my actuary teammate who had to knock some statistical common sense into me, regarding the setback of added complexity offering more answers, but requiring more decision making/time/brainpower and for what cost. Making the deck simpler ensures easier lines of play that are similar but not as potent in power, but hopefully confirmed via testing to be sufficient.
I think you're missing the point of Glimmer. You are going for LED/petal, and this is mostly if pressured by a xantid swarm you don't have a repeal/fow for. Against other decks, I often can show in a titan and ramp into incredible mana with my glimmerpost trigger on the stack to snag their Enter the infinite, and worse case is a peek sans cantrip.
Also if you have played my versions of the deck, you know that sometimes you are simply limited on how many counters/cards you can hold in hand since you side out most of your grindy/fixing cards. Glimmer not only lets you plan, but lets you burn your hand EoT for them. I would glimmer @ 1 all day every day against storm or sneak/omni if they aren't pressuring me and giving me the turn back.
This is the list I am currently running:
2 Trinket Mage
4 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek
1 Ulamog
1 Emrakul
4 Brainstorm
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Crop Rotation
4 Expedition Map
2 Pithing Needle
3 Repeal
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Show and tell
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloud post
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
4 Vesuva
SB
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
4 Swan Song
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Force of Will
I believe this is my current list
Im just trying the Glacial in the board now ill see if I like it better like this not sure yet.
Let me know what you guys think!
Chris
Thanks for super fast answering!
Still trying to post my list, but need a clue.....as far as I've seen, you guys use deckbox.org to post your lists here, right? I've created the deck there, but I've no idea how to post it @mtgthesource the way you did?Is there any hint for noobs? Didn't find one in the "rules" section
Nice standard list. With that type of a list you really keep on 3 mana of any type, 2 mana with top/brainstorm, or 1 mana very rarely and only if a brainstorm/top and you're on the draw.
I open up my magicworkstation file with notepad, and copy/paste the list, then write [ cards ] (insert list here) [ /cards ] around the list without the spaces. Makes them all pop up with hyperlinks.Thanks for super fast answering!
Still trying to post my list, but need a clue.....as far as I've seen, you guys use deckbox.org to post your lists here, right? I've created the deck there, but I've no idea how to post it @mtgthesource the way you did?
MWS is not going to be my friend...downloaded it, installed it, but there seems to be some trouble with the carddatabase and it's not going to let me import my .dec files from Deckbuilder :-/
Anyway, I'll try do post my list now by just typing:
26 Lands:
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Glimmerpost
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Island
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Thespian's Stage
3 Tropical Island
3 Vesuva
4 Misty Rainforest
28 Spells:
4 Brainstorm
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Expedition Map
4 Crop Rotation
2 Cyclonic Rift
3 Pithing Needle
2 Repeal
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Show and Tell
7 Creatures:
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Sideboard:
3 All Is Dust
3 Elephant Grass
4 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Yes, 61 in deck, that's right.
Thespian's Stage came in because of Dark Depths. Well DD was kicked, Stage remained (bec chasm main).
Cyclonic Rift performed well and saved me several games by just swiping the board, but the card-draw repeal offers is too great, isn't it?
SB is splitted for combo/aggro, since many aggro decks are around (therefoe chasm main).
Again thinking about 2 Trinket Mages (Tutor AND Jumpblocker), so perhaps -1 needle, -1 map or something like that.
Well that explains your issues with delvers and true names. No repeals to accelerate you vs TN or reset delvers. If delvers are infesting your meta, I would suggest x2 snap, x4 repeal -2 cyclonic rift, -2 pithing needle.
Also thespian's stage isn't necessary to fight Dark Depths. again repeal/snap are boss.
Ok, I'll return to 4 Repeals. But I didn't get the point with Repeal helping me to fight TN? Played Cyclonic Rift in order to handle TN without splashing white for Terminus.
Right now, UWr Delver (aka Patriot) seems to be a difficult MU to me, since it's really fast (often T1 Delver, T2 flip, Bolt....).
Stage wasn't supposed to fight DD. Once I tried to fit DD in 12 Post myself^^ DD was kicked, Stage remained in deck without it. CiP untapped, so T1 Top is possible, but it's also able to copy lands for mana fixing and "resets" a chasm if needed.
Do you like the 2 Ponders in your build? Wasn't able to test them, but looks like "many cantrips, less solutions"?
There are two ways to solve a problem. Answer the problem, or circumvent it. Repeal lets them go slower, or you go faster with candelabra & top.
I am enjoying the ponders immensely and not finding it harder to answer problems actually easier.
You're right, Repeal should buy me enough time by bouncing Jitte to fullfil the Eldrazi plan.
Will try Ponder at the Weekend, tiny tournament around my area
Do you board after game 1 when playing against UWr Delver?
As going low as 2 vesuvas, aren't 3 candelabras a bit too much? I'm running a single one at the moment, and i have to say i'm not so happy to draw it without having multiple posts in play, i feel it's a dead draw. Lowering the number of possible posts while increasing the number of candels isn't making this even more frequent?
I have 3 questions for u. First, fows are better than pierces or venser o chalice or mindbreak?. Second, 2 pithing only? I almost always want one in hand, I think 3 is better. And final, 2 vesuvas and 3 candelabras? Only 10 post seems to low... tell me ur testing conclusion about that.
Force of Will isn't limited to what it can counter unlike those spells you mentioned. They can also counter spells turn 0 and can be hardcast eventually.
Pithing Needle while it is nice for it to show up it isn't a necessity and the cards you want to name can be worked around. It's an elevator, if it breaks down just use the stairs.
I do agree that 3 candels is a bit high but if you have 4 vesuvas getting one in your opening is just HORRIBLE. Having 2 greatly reduces that chance and you also get the same really high amount of mana anyway while still getting the same benefits of the Vesuva.
12-post Discord: https://discord.gg/QxYVg3g
I have been running 10 locus for awhile now. Ponder means vesuvas are easier to fetch up while under pressure, and candelabras can be used to convert into added blue.
I am a huge fan of Maze of Ith and play 3x in my main. Especially with Candelabras to untap them, Mazes play great defense while you stabilize early against a large chunk of the format without putting you on a clock like Chasm. While they don't answer TNN, they do answer Goblin Guides, Batterskull tokens, Delvers, Goyfs, Cliques, Marit Lage, 2/3 of a Geist, etc.. They also often draw Wastelands away from Cloudposts. That said, I play a monogreen build that runs Explore and Exploration as accellerants, which allows me to play them without missing land drops. I don't know the nuances of the UG builds as well, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to at least include it as a one-of to tutor for.
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Went undefeated in my local gauntlet (that is nothing to scoff at), with this Dollar-monstrosity version. It was incredibly savage.
// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [US] Show and Tell
3 [M12] Ponder
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 4 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 3 [PLC] Venarian Glimmer
SB: 1 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
I only lost one game, and it was due to greed. The thing is relentlessly fast when it wants to be, or incredible at stalling/controlling.
With Chalice @ 1 decks at an all time low, going to 25 cmc 1 spells isn't as greedy as I thought. And with Abrupt Decay not dominating due to TNN, it is THE time to ramp up Candelabra count.
Even for cheapest TCG prices, this current version is over 2,000$. So not for the weak of heart, or paycheck. Remember all that warning I gave about keeping your playset of Candelabras when I was placing with low-candelabra lists? Well TNN tipped the meta towards candelabras and then some.
Sorry if this is a noob-ish question, but are all 3 Eldrazi needed? Is it just the different casting costs, or do the alternative options for the triggered abilities matter? I can see that the vindicate of Ulamog could be necessary, but if you're resolving an Eldrazi, do you ever really need the draw 4 of kozilek - one would have thought that an extra turn from Emrakul and annihilator 6 would be better in almost every circumstance?
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