Would you like to see True-Name Nemesis gone?

[dontbiteitholmes]

Only 3 MD TNN in the 7-1 lists for SCG Invi lists and a wide array of archetypes, but the format's still TNN vs. anti-TNN right?

To be fair the Invitational is skewed because it is also 50% Standard thus it's generally considered bad form to point to the top 8 Legacy decks as indicative of any trend in the meta.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I really like Zombie's post!

[Barook]

To be fair the Invitational is skewed because it is also 50% Standard thus it's generally considered bad form to point to the top 8 Legacy decks as indicative of any trend in the meta.

He was talking about the 7-1 Legacy performers, not the Top 8:

7-1 or better

[EpicLevelCommoner]

*reads TNN*
*reads Invisibile Stalker*
*scratches head*

So a 3/1 for 1UU with effectively Hexproof and Unblockable in Legacy (because, ya know, when was the last time anyone used global damage outside of the occasional Bonfire of the Damned?) is bad for the format?

I may be a terrible player, but I honestly think this card is nowhere near banworthy. In fact, I'd argue it's actually healthy for the format, as it could actually make maindeck sweepers viable (Deed and Terminus aside) over Snapcaster and Spot Removal in certain metagames.

[BVB09]

He was talking about the 7-1 Legacy performers, not the Top 8:

7-1 or better

Hi, I think I got a bit lost. Legacy IQ wasn't taking place today?
Where do those lists come from?
Thanks

[Feaor]

I hope you realize that 2/3 of the lists that are 7-1 are TNN lists or anti-TNN lists, that's quite a lot. Its pretty much impossible for all the top decks to be one archetype, even during Survival and Mental Misstep days, other lists were in the top as well. I think its pretty obvious that the best decks in Legacy right now are the TNN + SFM decks, they play blue so they have good combo match ups and TNN shores up their Midrange matchup so the decks that used to prey on them are at best even with them. That's the problem I have, whats the point in playing non-blue midrange decks? Decks like Jund have pretty bad combo match ups but were reasonable choices because they beat up on the blue decks, but with TNN this really isn't the case anymore. Is that matchup still winnable? Sure, TNN is far from unbeatable, but its an uphill battle and that doesn't seem like a winning deck to me.

I think its maybe a bit too early to say with certainty that TNN is warping the format since its only been a month, but from what I see its already starting to warp the format a bit so it seems very likely that it will continue to warp the format.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I hope you realize that 2/3 of the lists that are 7-1 are TNN lists or anti-TNN lists, that's quite a lot. Its pretty much impossible for all the top decks to be one archetype, even during Survival and Mental Misstep days, other lists were in the top as well. I think its pretty obvious that the best decks in Legacy right now are the TNN + SFM decks, they play blue so they have good combo match ups and TNN shores up their Midrange matchup so the decks that used to prey on them are at best even with them. That's the problem I have, whats the point in playing non-blue midrange decks? Decks like Jund have pretty bad combo match ups but were reasonable choices because they beat up on the blue decks, but with TNN this really isn't the case anymore. Is that matchup still winnable? Sure, TNN is far from unbeatable, but its an uphill battle and that doesn't seem like a winning deck to me.

I think its maybe a bit too early to say with certainty that TNN is warping the format since its only been a month, but from what I see its already starting to warp the format a bit so it seems very likely that it will continue to warp the format.

I still don't like using Invi results to infer things about the meta. Plenty of people could have done very well in Legacy but may have dropped because they were X-3 in the Standard portion before they got to finish all the Legacy rounds. That said the results that were posted don't look like TNN vs. Anti-TNN decks to me at all. Esperblade sans. TNN, Junk, RUG Delver, MUD all decks we have seen before with cards that aren't exactly out of place and then one EsperBlade with MD TNNs. I mean if it was like Junk + 3x MD Golgari Charms and Esper with 2x MD Zealous Persecutions I would see your point but those lists look pretty stock to me. Sure the SBs are different because of TNN but that's what sideboards are for. I think this is just a case of people seeing what they want to see, but then again I don't put stock in Invi results one way or the other for reasons I already mentioned.

[rxavage]

I hope you realize that 2/3 of the lists that are 7-1 are TNN lists or anti-TNN lists, that's quite a lot.

Care to explain how any of those 6 decks listed are "anti-TNN"? What have any of these decks changed or included in there 75 that they previously hadn't?


The funniest part of all this Nemesis apocalypse is that it's still all the same decks winning as before. So what if they're all trying out a new toy, it happens with every decent legacy playable creature.

[Feaor]

Care to explain how any of those 6 decks listed are "anti-TNN"? What have any of these decks changed or included in there 75 that they previously hadn't?


The funniest part of all this Nemesis apocalypse is that it's still all the same decks winning as before. So what if they're all trying out a new toy, it happens with every decent legacy playable creature.

Ok maybe I should clarify, 12 Post is a deck which can completely ignore TNN by going over the top of it, I'd list it in the same category as S&T, Elves!, and ANT. These have become much better because the TrueBlade decks don't have a fast clock and you can just go over the top of them, completely ignoring TNN.

Also there has been a pretty sizable shift in the Meta, go look at the past few months of data on the top decks, Blade Control completely fell off the map towards the end of the summer, and now its one of the decks to beat. Even look at just October's data versus November's data, Blade control wasn't even on the list and now its placed well enough to be the 5th deck in terms of points and 3rd in terms of Top 8's.

[mini1337s]

Ok maybe I should clarify, 12 Post is a deck which can completely ignore TNN by going over the top of it, I'd list it in the same category as S&T, Elves!, and ANT. These have become much better because the TrueBlade decks don't have a fast clock and you can just go over the top of them, completely ignoring TNN.

Also there has been a pretty sizable shift in the Meta, go look at the past few months of data on the top decks, Blade Control completely fell off the map towards the end of the summer, and now its one of the decks to beat. Even look at just October's data versus November's data, Blade control wasn't even on the list and now its placed well enough to be the 5th deck in terms of points and 3rd in terms of Top 8's.

Oh come on... so decks that are good versus creature strategies, that were all played before the printing of True Name only exist to combat it? Of course True Name Nemesis exists in the metagame, but to suggest people are only playing 12 Post, Elves, SnT, etc to combat TNN is frankly ridiculous. Stop looking at the format with TNN-tinted glasses.

[Dia_Bot]

*reads TNN*


I may be a terrible player, but I honestly think this card is nowhere near banworthy.

It isn't.
However it is certainly not healthy for the format. A creature like that forces the format in a certain direction and that is certainly not healthy.

[HSCK]

Ok maybe I should clarify, 12 Post is a deck which can completely ignore TNN by going over the top of it, I'd list it in the same category as S&T, Elves!, and ANT. These have become much better because the TrueBlade decks don't have a fast clock and you can just go over the top of them, completely ignoring TNN.

Also there has been a pretty sizable shift in the Meta, go look at the past few months of data on the top decks, Blade Control completely fell off the map towards the end of the summer, and now its one of the decks to beat. Even look at just October's data versus November's data, Blade control wasn't even on the list and now its placed well enough to be the 5th deck in terms of points and 3rd in terms of Top 8's.

Oh no, Blade Control, the most oppressive and uninteractive deck there is is now performing well....And those other decks definitely did not exist pre-TNN because they were pushed out by all the decks that TNN pushed out like Zoo...and...that other deck...and that other deck....

[mini1337s]

It isn't.
However it is certainly not healthy for the format. A creature like that maybe (and has yet to) forces the format in a certain direction and that I, Dia_Bot, don't think is healthy.

Fixed that for you.

There are no numbers to back up claims that True Name Nemesis is dominating the format. TNN decks are placing well, but there is still a ridiculous amount of format diversity, based on results from http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/for...?format=Legacy . Hell, the decks people claim are invalidated (aka Death and Taxes) are still showing up in Top 8s.

The "unfun" argument is ridiculously subjective. Some people think Emrakul is "unfun," but it seems only recently those people jumped ship to the TNN bandwagon. At the end of the day, this is Legacy; things are banned because they are broken or dominate (see Survival) (neither of which TNN is shaping up to be), not because they aren't fun to play against.

[Zombie]

Oh come on... so decks that are good versus creature strategies, that were all played before the printing of True Name only exist to combat it? Of course True Name Nemesis exists in the metagame, but to suggest people are only playing 12 Post, Elves, SnT, etc to combat TNN is frankly ridiculous. Stop looking at the format with TNN-tinted glasses.

Saying that decks built to evade/be too big are anti-TNN is valid, IMO (so hugecreature decks, flier decks, combo typically). They do better than usual exactly because they naturally don't give a shit. Even then, though, that specific deck listing is full of anti-TNN decks is stretching it a bit, even if the lists have a few oddities. Trueblade, a racing-oriented D&T build, MUD are pretty much what would be expected. Oddly no Hellkites. RUG adopted TNN, but it's pretty flimsy as far as Trueblade counters go. Only 1 Grudge. Junk has 4 Souls and Lili in the main, which is unusual IMO. Heavy anti-TNN sweeps in the side, but that's less horrible. The most normal thing in the 6 is Ravitz's Esperblade which just looks like it's lived under a rock and came to the tournament to see the sights.

I'd say it's wrong to call that sample very warped, but at the same time it can't really be called normal, IMO. And we have to remember this is the Invitational we're talking about. Split format, very unusual audience. It's an event whose Legacy meta hasn't usually been normal to begin with.

*reads TNN*
*reads Invisibile Stalker*
*scratches head*

So a 3/1 for 1UU with effectively Hexproof and Unblockable in Legacy (because, ya know, when was the last time anyone used global damage outside of the occasional Bonfire of the Damned?) is bad for the format?

I may be a terrible player, but I honestly think this card is nowhere near banworthy. In fact, I'd argue it's actually healthy for the format, as it could actually make maindeck sweepers viable (Deed and Terminus aside) over Snapcaster and Spot Removal in certain metagames.

You kind of forgot the part where it has appreciable attack power on it's own - enough to be a clock and to assassinate Planeswalkers and the part where it can block everything forever. And also the part where people play Pyroclasm pretty regularly.

It's not necessarily banworthy on a raw power level - however, it doesn't give us anything interesting and makes the format distinctly worse and less interactive. While it isn't super-broken strong, it IS strong, too. Strong enough to lift an Esperblade back to the top tier limelight, strong enough to be a permanent fixture and force consideration from others.

Basically, imagine a troll in on a forum. The forums are a very correct place, and the moderation is kinda bureaucratic. This troll never outright insults anyone, just goes everywhere making clearly wrong statements with an air of authority. In any argument with him, goalposts move at the speed of light, and he nitpicks like a champ. Threads get endlessly derailed because he never acknowledges anything. Yet he isn't banned because he's never actually breaking the rules. That's TNN. It's a troll. And like a troll, it needs to go so more fun can be had again.

Fixed that for you.

There are no numbers to back up claims that True Name Nemesis is dominating the format. TNN decks are placing well, but there is still a ridiculous amount of format diversity, based on results from http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/for...?format=Legacy . Hell, the decks people claim are invalidated (aka Death and Taxes) are still showing up in Top 8s.

The "unfun" argument is ridiculously subjective. Some people think Emrakul is "unfun," but it seems only recently those people jumped ship to the TNN bandwagon. At the end of the day, this is Legacy; things are banned because they are broken or dominate (see Survival) (neither of which TNN is shaping up to be), not because they aren't fun to play against.

Claiming D&T would get invalidated seems pretty odd, given the deck's capacity for playing a lot of fliers and thus ignoring TNN's stalling properties. The deck is also good at dealing with True-Shitpickle's support cards. May not be the best or most fun games, but D&T definitely can win.

TBH, I despise the standard crew of dumb autowin permanents played these days, and wouldn't shed a tear if they got the hammer. They're kinda like TNN. Bleh, but apparently the format can handle them so yay for bad games?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

The most oppressive aspect of True-Name Nemesis is Batterskull. . . . wait. . . .

[Tormod]

This thread is getting truly pathetic, now that some data is being generated TNN isn't oppressive or warping the format. Some folks just want to complain about the data...

I only mention this because the nonsense bitching has been going on for over a month. I get the feeling a lot of guys don't get the chance to play Legacy and haven't actually played with or against TNN.

Its a 'real card', but seriously its not even that good.

[Arsenal]

because, ya know, when was the last time anyone used global damage outside of the occasional Bonfire of the Damned?

Pyroclasm and Rough/Tumble see regular play in Legacy.

[Zombie]

because, ya know, when was the last time anyone used global damage outside of the occasional Bonfire of the Damned?

Pyroclasm and Rough/Tumble see regular play in Legacy.

Also worth noting that people really, really loved playing against Stalker-Blade decks. They did, didn't they? Really wished for a second season of it instead of saying good riddance.

[Feaor]

Its a 'real card', but seriously its not even that good.

Uh what? It single handedly catapulted decks that were not doing very well to the top of the meta, pretty much every deck is packing 3-5 answers for just TNN and I've even heard of Jund players main decking things like Golgari Charm so their TNN match ups are better. If it wasn't that good why would everyone be packing so much hate for it?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Also worth noting that people really, really loved playing against Stalker-Blade decks. They did, didn't they? Really wished for a second season of it instead of saying good riddance.

First, my bad on missing Pyroclasm and Rough//Tumble: I was mistaken when I thought that 2 global damage is actually relevant with all the heavy hitting "fatties" in Legacy (specifically Tarmogoyf).

Second, how did people deal with Stalker-Blade decks then? Because the format looks like it hasn't changed that much with either card's printing, so some archetype must have been keeping the Stalker down.

Third, Emrakul is far more oppressive than either Stalker or TNN whether with or without SFM. Even with Griselbrand existing, I doubt decks like Mono-U Omniscience, UR Sneak Attack, or 12 Post would have nearly as much momentum as other archetypes if it weren't for a 15/15 flier that forces the opponent to sac 6 permanents every time it swings and cannot be killed with traditional spot removal.

EDIT: missed the original message to me, one sec.

EDIT2: Now that I read that. . . . First, it's either gonna swing, or it's gonna block unless a Batterskull is equipped to it, correct? So therefore, the Batterskull (or rather the Stoneforge Mystic which tutors the Batterskull in the first place) is the primary target and TNN the secondary target. Second, I consider both the ability to slay Planeswalkers AND encourage evasive beats fairly healthy for the format: at the very least JMS won't be slammed into every blue deck simply because it's good.

Upon further reflection though, it does promote its own use, as TNN is evasive as well. Hmm . . . still think Emrakul is a lot worse, but I see the unhealthy argument a bit better now.