Would you like to see True-Name Nemesis gone?

[Dice_Box]

Really, you're quoting the infamous Tom LaPille article? On -this- board? :)

What is the issue with quoting one of Wizards own articles on this site?

[DLifshitz]

What is the issue with quoting one of Wizards own articles on this site?

The general consensus on this board seems to be, Tom LaPille was a bad writer with a poor understanding of Legacy.

see e.g. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-s-at-it-again

[Zombie]

What is the issue with quoting one of Wizards own articles on this site?

Most people heavily disagreed with said article and thought it was bullshit. Thus in quoting it the person is basically not using an argument to authority, but an argument to bullshit.

[Zombie]

First, my bad on missing Pyroclasm and Rough//Tumble: I was mistaken when I thought that 2 global damage is actually relevant with all the heavy hitting "fatties" in Legacy (specifically Tarmogoyf).

Second, how did people deal with Stalker-Blade decks then? Because the format looks like it hasn't changed that much with either card's printing, so some archetype must have been keeping the Stalker down.

Third, Emrakul is far more oppressive than either Stalker or TNN whether with or without SFM. Even with Griselbrand existing, I doubt decks like Mono-U Omniscience, UR Sneak Attack, or 12 Post would have nearly as much momentum as other archetypes if it weren't for a 15/15 flier that forces the opponent to sac 6 permanents every time it swings and cannot be killed with traditional spot removal.

EDIT: missed the original message to me, one sec.

EDIT2: Now that I read that. . . . First, it's either gonna swing, or it's gonna block unless a Batterskull is equipped to it, correct? So therefore, the Batterskull (or rather the Stoneforge Mystic which tutors the Batterskull in the first place) is the primary target and TNN the secondary target. Second, I consider both the ability to slay Planeswalkers AND encourage evasive beats fairly healthy for the format: at the very least JMS won't be slammed into every blue deck simply because it's good.

Upon further reflection though, it does promote its own use, as TNN is evasive as well. Hmm . . . still think Emrakul is a lot worse, but I see the unhealthy argument a bit better now.

Stalker-Blade was in Standard. Just saying that TNN leads to a pretty similar scenario, except worse because TNN is actually an infinitely tall wall and a reasonable clock/planeswalker assassination device on it's own unlike Invisible Stalker, which couldn't really block and died to every kind of global effect easily. People hated that deck's guts. I think it's a worthwhile data point in an argument against TNN.

I agree the stupid fatties like Emralolol are bad. It just doesn't prevent me from saying that TNN is a bad thing to have in the format too.

Also, as to Batterskull being a primary threat, it's way easier to deal with/mitigate when it's on a creature you can actually kill and block. You suddenly have options, like blocking it with an Elvish Visionary and bouncing the Visionary before combat damage is dealt. Or you can just kill all the carriers. Can't really do either with TNN.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Stalker-Blade was in Standard. Just saying that TNN leads to a pretty similar scenario, except worse because TNN is actually an infinitely tall wall and a reasonable clock/planeswalker assassination device on it's own unlike Invisible Stalker, which couldn't really block and died to every kind of global effect easily. People hated that deck's guts. I think it's a worthwhile data point in an argument against TNN.

I agree the stupid fatties like Emralolol are bad. It just doesn't prevent me from saying that TNN is a bad thing to have in the format too.

Also, as to Batterskull being a primary threat, it's way easier to deal with/mitigate when it's on a creature you can actually kill and block. You suddenly have options, like blocking it with an Elvish Visionary and bouncing the Visionary before combat damage is dealt. Or you can just kill all the carriers. Can't really do either with TNN.

Fair enough: I don't play standard so I was unfamiliar with Stalker-Blade.

As an aside, I think it's actually a really nifty design for what it was designed for: Commander. Laying down an evasive clock against player that tells the other opponents, "Fear not, I'm singling this guy out right now" is swell imho.

[UnderwaterGuy]

What is the issue with quoting one of Wizards own articles on this site?

Because tom lapille is ignorant-as-fuck about mtg in general. His stupidity has created a lot of jokes over the years.

Fair enough: I don't play standard so I was unfamiliar with Stalker-Blade.

As an aside, I think it's actually a really nifty design for what it was designed for: Commander. Laying down an evasive clock against player that tells the other opponents, "Fear not, I'm singling this guy out right now" is swell imho.

Yeah, I do agree with that. I've played with TNN in 60 card multiplayer and it's a lot more interesting there. Whoever designed it probably didn't even consider what it would do in a duel.

[Lt. Quattro]

Because tom lapille is ignorant-as-fuck about mtg in general. His stupidity has created a lot of jokes over the years.



Yeah, I do agree with that. I've played with TNN in 60 card multiplayer and it's a lot more interesting there. Whoever designed it probably didn't even consider what it would do in a duel.

Wasn't its casting cost made so it was playable in legacy? I thought I read that in an article.

[Dice_Box]

I think its design was made with legacy in mind. This card would be hard pressed to find itself in EDH and causing an issue. 3 damage in EDH where it's only ability is it can hit one player? That's not all that great. The fact that it has protection from a Player and not a Player controlling a chosen Commander I think is the proof you need to see it was made for us and not the format it is claimed it was made for. Add on aggressive costing, and you have the whole package.

On a sidenote, if the current trend keeps up and Deathblade does take over the format, who do you think would bite the Banhammer, this guy or Stoneforge? Just an open question, if one of the two has to go, who do you think RnD will pick?

[HSCK]

What pace? 1 or 2 top 8s in most tournaments?

[mini1337s]

On a sidenote, if the current trend keeps up and Deathblade does take over the format, who do you think would bite the Banhammer, this guy or Stoneforge? Just an open question, if one of the two has to go, who do you think RnD will pick?

December 2013 Results for Legacy T8s so far:


LOOKS LIKE GOBLINS AND MUD NEED BANS TOO.

November 2013 Results:


I have no idea where you are getting your trending info for Deathblade taking over the format.

Call me in 4 months and we can review TNN's place in the format.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Uh what? It single handedly catapulted decks that were not doing very well to the top of the meta, pretty much every deck is packing 3-5 answers for just TNN and I've even heard of Jund players main decking things like Golgari Charm so their TNN match ups are better. If it wasn't that good why would everyone be packing so much hate for it?

People do all kinds of idiotic things, MD Golgari Charm is probably overkill especially since it kills your Confidants as well. So yeah, bad players do bad things.

UW or UWx Stoneblade decks have been tier 1 off an on since Stoneforge and Jace have been cards. Even without TNN the deck would have been tier 1 again at some point.

You can't call all combo decks anti-TNN decks and use that as an excuse for TNN not showing up to the party. Combo was already a growing part of the metagame in the months before TNN came out as tends to happen whenever people start to think it's smart to run 3x Forces MD.

People aren't packing that much hate for it really. I mean I see SB slots but that's the point of SBs plus those cards are also good vs. other decks.

[Dice_Box]

I have no idea where you are getting your trending info for Deathblade taking over the format.

Sorry let me have a second go at this.

If decks running both Stoneforge and TNN keep putting up strong numbers, as they are right now, what one of the two do you see more likely getting the boot. Please note I am not saying ban either outright right now*, I am simply asking a question that is kicking around in my head right now. That if something comes to ahead, what will give first, TNN or the card that feeds him with Equipment that up until now had not been an issue?

(*Though I have voiced my views on TTN and have zero issues with Forge.)

[dontbiteitholmes]

Sorry let me have a second go at this.

If decks running both Stoneforge and TNN keep putting up strong numbers, as they are right now, what one of the two do you see more likely getting the boot. Please note I am not saying ban either outright right now*, I am simply asking a question that is kicking around in my head right now. That if something comes to ahead, what will give first, TNN or the card that feeds him with Equipment that up until now had not been an issue?

(*Though I have voiced my views on TTN and have zero issues with Forge.)

If your problem with TNN is equipment I have good news for you, they print cards that can destroy equipment.

[Dice_Box]

Thats not my issue at all. I have been moving house since TNN was printed and have got to play a total of 3 times. On each of those times I have been playing with either a combo deck or my Fish deck. So I have had speed or counters. This question is not about situations I have faced but situations I am seeing on streams. After all I have been facing creatures with Equipment for years, I have cards to stop that.

The question is just one I have been thinking on. If (and thats the key word here "if") a ban comes down, what card do you see more likely to be banned, Stone or Name? Because honestly I haven't a clue. Stone has not been an issue in the format the whole time she has been in it. Yes she is a pain but she is just another tutor. TNN was obviously printed for a reason, Wizards is trying to do something here. You do not print a card like this, aimed at only one format and not have a reason. So what do people think is going to end up being the weak link; The card that has not been an issue up until there was a card printed that could push it overboard or the card that is pushing it?

Thats as blunt a question as I can ask. I am not trying to hide meanings in this, I am not trying to move discussion one way or the other. I just have this thought that if TNN was indeed printed for some hidden reason, what will matter more, the format as it was until this point or that reason that we do not yet know?

Edit, Fuck my spelling is up shit Creek of late.

[Lord Seth]

Stalker-Blade was in Standard. Just saying that TNN leads to a pretty similar scenario, except worse because TNN is actually an infinitely tall wall and a reasonable clock/planeswalker assassination device on it's own unlike Invisible Stalker, which couldn't really block and died to every kind of global effect easily. People hated that deck's guts. I think it's a worthwhile data point in an argument against TNN.

I don't remember people hating Stalker-Blade in Standard because I don't remember it even being much of a thing in Standard. Unless you're referring to the UW Delver decks that played Invisible Stalker, but most UW Delver decks did not use Invisible Stalker. Personally, I found Invisible Stalker to be very underwhelming in UW Delver because you had to have an equipment to attach to it or else it was quite weak, whereas the other creatures were good value on their own.

[Megadeus]

This thread is getting truly pathetic, now that some data is being generated TNN isn't oppressive or warping the format. Some folks just want to complain about the data...

I only mention this because the nonsense bitching has been going on for over a month. I get the feeling a lot of guys don't get the chance to play Legacy and haven't actually played with or against TNN.

Its a 'real card', but seriously its not even that good.

I played against it twice so far. Me on Maverick, him on Merfolk (same player twice in the swiss and T8). Card single handedly won him the game. It was... Exciting. /sarcasm

I dont think it is overpowered, I just think it is a dumb and boring card, that hurts more than it helps.

[Zombie]

I played against it twice so far. Me on Maverick, him on Merfolk (same player twice in the swiss and T8). Card single handedly won him the game. It was... Exciting. /sarcasm

I dont think it is overpowered, I just think it is a dumb and boring card, that hurts more than it helps.

It helps?
*headscratch*
*tries to think of positive effects of TNN*
*headscratch*

[HSCK]

Promotes an interactive archetype while pushing out what exactly?

Only 6 MD TNN and another 7 SB in the top 16, while 3 RUG Delver and 2 Punishing Jund decks that people in this thread have said are dead because of TNN, are in the top 8.

[Tormod]

^^^
Exactly, this is the data that i'm talking about.

This really causes me to question those who are calling for a ban of TNN, just exactly how many games have they actually played with and/or against True-Name.

Re: the SCG Las Vegas Legacy top 8:
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell you Jund has all the answer to a TNN, and already crushes Esper Stoneblade should be better positioned. Two in the top 8. Folks are claiming that TNN kills rug, yet we see three in the top 8. The top 16 we see the "pre-TNN" usual suspects of Elves, Death and Taxes, Countertop, Sneak Show, an Esper Stoneblade and some variety with imperial painter and lands.

Let's not underestimate for our beautiful format's ability to find answers, and really lets be real here, yes TNN is a card, but really its not that amazing.

Stay calm and play Legacy.

[lordofthepit]

Only 6 MD TNN and another 7 SB in the top 16, while 3 RUG Delver and 2 Punishing Jund decks that people in this thread have said are dead because of TNN, are in the top 8.

No one said RUG Delver was dead, but all of the top RUG decklists have adapted by running TNN in their 75s.