[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

[ragamuffinvb]

Maybe we can come up with some sort of list? I think, for it to be just as effective as D&T, you need the Wasteland, Port, Thalia and Karakas package. The rest is open to Scrublands, fetches and basics. The downside to this is that we suddenly become vunerable again to Stifle and our Duals might be Wasteland targets again. Also, Price of Progress, but, whatever, haha.

D&T Core:
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Flickerwisp
1 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

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What can we take out of this list and replace with Dark Confidant and Tidehollow Sculler AND even some possible discard?
The possible options I see are:
- Flickerwisp
- Mirran Crusader
- Aven Mindcensor
- Phyrexian Revoker (dropping it down to 3 due to sometimes really just being a 2/1 body)

It's weird; I play D&T myself and see a huge use for all the creatures above. I've won many a game off of a well-timed Vialed-in Flickerwisp and Aven Mindcensor has its uses vs opposing Blade decks or combo decks (though it's a bit slow at 3CMC). The singleton Mirran Crusader is just a threat beater and can be taken out if need be (though he can quickly end games, which D&T and DGA both miss). Phyrexian Revoker can be a pretty dead card in some matches, but in others it just wins games by shutting down Liliana, for instance.

I wouldn't take out the Serra Avengers, since it's the only creature that has all of this; evasion, a relative body and can be Vialed-in on 2. If you'd take out the Flickerwisps and the Aven Mindcensors, this would be the only creature left in the deck with evasion. Besides, she's really good with equipment due to the vigilance.

I think the core speaks for itself, Mom, SfM, Thalia, Revoker, Vial, equipment, StPS, etc. I don't think we'd be able to add any discard. If we'd make a Vial-build, we can't take away too much creatures for other spells, besides, we play Thalia and I don't think it would really mesh well to add additional discard in non-creature form. We might be able to add it to the SB vs. combo, for instance.

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I'm thinking of something like this ...

Deadguy Ale & Taxes:
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Plains
3 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
2 Flooded Strand (or any white-based fetch)
4 Scrubland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard could run Zealous Persecution, discard vs. combo, etc. Never been a huge fan of D&T's sideboard and vs. combo it feels like a hit or miss. This version might even have a better chance vs. combo.

Anyways, this is what I could come up with. Maybe I'm too stuck to the core of D&T that I'm missing what I could drop, so, let's just brainstorm here. The one thing I notice right off the bat is that we never have to up our Vial to 3, it can always stay at 2, which is nice since experienced players know that when D&T ups their Vial to 3 they either have a Flickerwisp or an Aven Mindcensor. For now I added 4 Tidehollow Sculler, but we might be able to run 3 and then replace that spot with 1 Mirran Crusader or an additional Revoker to get him back to 4 or even a 4th Serra Avenger. Enough options.

For the landbase; it's gonna be a hit or miss and I do think this version might have less consistency. I dropped the Horizon Canopy due to hoping not to need that with Dark Confidant. Didn't think we'd need a basic Swamp. All we need is that basic Plains and the rest we fetch up will get us in business, even if it's just for a moment. I would hate to have a basic Swamp in my opening hand and not being able to cast Mom or StPS. However, nothing is set in stone. A basic Swamp might be handy to establish all we need (B for Tidehollow Sculler and Bob), though we don't run BB, so ... we might be just fine. Cavern of Souls is even more useful now due to Bob being a Human as well.

The rest is still pretty much D&T. I'm actually quite excited to just try this out, haha

the mana base i have been running the last few weeks has been

4 marsh flats
1 verdant
4 scrublands
2 karakas
3 plains
4 rishadan port
4 wasteland

it's been rather stable and i havent had problems. as to the creature package, the only real upgrade to the dnt creature list is bob in my honest opinion. i've tested sculler and bob and found both are good, however discard is not what the deck wants to be doing. It's better to have a lock piece like thalia or arbiter (my list) on the board then taking pieces with sculler or getting bob online. my creature list is

4 mom
4 stoneforge
3 bob
4 thalia
3 revoker
2 arbiter
1 mindcensor
2 mirranc crusader
2 flickerwisp
2 sculler

the only thing i would cut from this list as a flex spot would be the singleton mangara, but overall it's been performing well for me, sculler is good as a two of i think, as you want to deploy lock pieces with the overall gameplan of mana denial. generally as i've played with the list i vial in bob only once i've run out of steam, the second i get into top deck mode he's the perfect nail in the coffin to end games with as you will now be drawing to cards a turn, playing things for free, while preventing ur opponent from playing anything

[Richard Cheese]

This is what I've been testing, and so far it's looking promising:


3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Mirran Crusader
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Cataclysm
SB: 2 Sunlance


Ignore the SB, it's just a straight rip from the D&T list I started with, although it's not a bad starting point. I would probably cut a Revoker from the main right now, since it has limited applications against RUG, Team America, and Patriot, possibly add another Mirran Crusader to hedge bets against Golgari Charm/Zealous Persecution? Board needs more discard to shore up the combo matchup.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

the mana base i have been running the last few weeks has been

4 marsh flats
1 verdant
4 scrublands
2 karakas
3 plains
4 rishadan port
4 wasteland

it's been rather stable and i havent had problems. as to the creature package, the only real upgrade to the dnt creature list is bob in my honest opinion. i've tested sculler and bob and found both are good, however discard is not what the deck wants to be doing. It's better to have a lock piece like thalia or arbiter (my list) on the board then taking pieces with sculler or getting bob online. my creature list is

4 mom
3 bob
4 thalia
4 revoker
2 arbiter
2 mindcensor
2 mirranc crusader
2 flickerwisp
2 sculler
1 mangara

the only thing i would cut from this list as a flex spot would be the singleton mangara, but overall it's been performing well for me, sculler is good as a two of i think, as you want to deploy lock pieces with the overall gameplan of mana denial. generally as i've played with the list i vial in bob only once i've run out of steam, the second i get into top deck mode he's the perfect nail in the coffin to end games with as you will now be drawing to cards a turn, playing things for free, while preventing ur opponent from playing anything

Regarding the manabase, don't you think that 3rd Plains could be a Karakas? I mean, Karakas + Thalia is just really important in a lot of matches and seeing as you play Mangara, it's even more so. You really want that Karakas.

Leonin Arbiter is cute, but you do realize that, with it, you blank SFM's, right? Or well, it let's SFM cost 4 or 2 + Vial. I don't think it's that great, especially since you're running Aven Mindcensor anyways.
Is that the reason why you're not running SFM? I don't really get that, to be honest. Does that even work? Also, no Serra Avenger? No equipment at all?

Regarding Tidehollow Sculler; I get that 'discard is not what we want to do' - but it's really more than that. It works well vs. combo; somebody drops a LED, you in response Vial in Sculler to take their Tutor, Empty the Warrens, Belcher, you name it. Also, vs. blade-decks you can, in response to their SFM activation, just snag their Batterskull / Jitte / etc. Which are all really good plays and can impact the game a lot.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

This is what I've been testing, and so far it's looking promising:

3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tidehollow Sculler

2 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs

4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Mirran Crusader
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Cataclysm
SB: 2 Sunlance


Ignore the SB, it's just a straight rip from the D&T list I started with, although it's not a bad starting point. I would probably cut a Revoker from the main right now, since it has limited applications against RUG, Team America, and Patriot, possibly add another Mirran Crusader to hedge bets against Golgari Charm/Zealous Persecution? Board needs more discard to shore up the combo matchup.

Now, this list I can dig. It's close to what I have envisioned.

Manabase: What I would do is really just play at least 2 to 3 Karakas. Do we really need basic Swamps? I could imagine 1 Swamp in case of Blood Moon or Wastelanding, but even in that case, we might just be better of starting off with a Basic plains and then keep adding Scrublands. Maybe just 1 Swamp might work, but I'd probably just replace that with 1 Cavern of Souls (Humans), which works for Bob. You want to Vial in Sculler anyways.

Creatures: I would always play 4 Thalia. Maybe 3 SFM would work, since we've added Bob and might run into her quicker than we'd normally would with normal draws at 4 copies. So, that I can dig.
You do miss any form of evasion, which might be troublesome.

Discard: you've got 4 (7, with 3 Scullers) discard options main, maybe move some to the sideboard and up the creature count again? Go to 4 Thalia (she's so important for Rishadan Port locks!) and 4 Tidehollow Sculler. Remove 2 Inquistion of Kozilek. Keep 2 Thoughtseize. Add some more discard to the SB in the form of Duress or more Thoughtseize (might be harmful with Bob, though)?

[DemolitionColorScheme]

I think this is gonna be my list:

[LAND : 23]
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Plains
3 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Flooded Strand (or any white-based fetch)
4 Scrubland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

[CREATURES : 26]
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

[INSTANTS : 4]
4 Swords to Plowshares

[UTILITY : 7]
4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

[SIDEBOARD]
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Vindicate / 2 Oblivion Ring
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege

The sideboard will be under construction. With us splashing black, we suddenly get some new options.
I decided to keep 4 Stoneforge Mystics for now, because with the regular D&T list we can Flickerwisp our own Stoneforge to grab something else, but that's not the case here and we really need STF to get some action going, 'cause these unequiped 2-power critters aren't gonna cut it on their own. I do miss the Mirran Crusader, but I don't know what to drop for it.

I opted for a mix of 2 Thoughtseize and 2 Duress in the SB since we'll be losing life with Bob already and it's scary to get into Tendrils / Emrakul range too soon.

Thoughts?

[ragamuffinvb]

Regarding the manabase, don't you think that 3rd Plains could be a Karakas? I mean, Karakas + Thalia is just really important in a lot of matches and seeing as you play Mangara, it's even more so. You really want that Karakas.

Leonin Arbiter is cute, but you do realize that, with it, you blank SFM's, right? Or well, it let's SFM cost 4 or 2 + Vial. I don't think it's that great, especially since you're running Aven Mindcensor anyways.
Is that the reason why you're not running SFM? I don't really get that, to be honest. Does that even work? Also, no Serra Avenger? No equipment at all?

Regarding Tidehollow Sculler; I get that 'discard is not what we want to do' - but it's really more than that. It works well vs. combo; somebody drops a LED, you in response Vial in Sculler to take their Tutor, Empty the Warrens, Belcher, you name it. Also, vs. blade-decks you can, in response to their SFM activation, just snag their Batterskull / Jitte / etc. Which are all really good plays and can impact the game a lot.

I'm aware that Arbiter seems like a nonbo with stoneforge half the time, but it honestly isn't. He's quite qood with vial and even without. The theory I had when i decided to add him to the deck was that he shores up one of our bad matches in elves and tnn decks while we also hardly hurting us at all with his ability. With vial you will often have two mana open to pay for mystic, the fact that he costs 2 instead of three also makes him easier to flash in over mindcensor. He is a great tool against elves, as he slows them down long enough for a jitte to get equiped to one of your creatures.

Since i last posted i have actually cut the verdant catacombs in favor of a third karakas, so i will agree with you on that note :)

I mistyped my list by not including the stoneforge mystic so i have since edited it i apologize for the confusion, and i do run the standard equipment package of batterskull jitte/fire and ice.

And in response to sculler, the deck already has a good combo match up anyway, thalia does most of the work against most combo decks outside of elves ? If you lived long enough to flash in a sculler against belcher you've prolly already won that game or are flashing him in as a body to block goblins. Against sfm decks your are correct, i can snag their equipment in response to sfm (assuming they were able to search for 0.o lol), I'm not argueing the power of that play. I'm just saying lock pieces like thalia, arbiter, mindcensor, and land disruption are better for the deck. which is why i have sculler as a two of.

the final list i've settled on for now is below

creatures

4 Mom
4 thalia
4 stoneforge
3 bob
3 revoker
3 flickerwisp
2 mirran crusader
2 sculler
2 arbiter
1 mindcensor

Lands

4 marsh flats
4 ports
4 wasteland
4 scrubland
3 plains
3 karakas

artifacts

4 aether vial
1 batterskull
1 jitte

removal

4 swords to plowshares

[Jitse]

lol, how is arbiter insane against elves. They honestly don't care to pay 6 for there natural order, ok they have GSZ but even for them they can most of the time pay 2 more.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

I'm aware that Arbiter seems like a nonbo with stoneforge half the time, but it honestly isn't. He's quite qood with vial and even without. The theory I had when i decided to add him to the deck was that he shores up one of our bad matches in elves and tnn decks while we also hardly hurting us at all with his ability. With vial you will often have two mana open to pay for mystic, the fact that he costs 2 instead of three also makes him easier to flash in over mindcensor. He is a great tool against elves, as he slows them down long enough for a jitte to get equiped to one of your creatures.

Since i last posted i have actually cut the verdant catacombs in favor of a third karakas, so i will agree with you on that note :)

I mistyped my list by not including the stoneforge mystic so i have since edited it i apologize for the confusion, and i do run the standard equipment package of batterskull jitte/fire and ice.

And in response to sculler, the deck already has a good combo match up anyway, thalia does most of the work against most combo decks outside of elves ? If you lived long enough to flash in a sculler against belcher you've prolly already won that game or are flashing him in as a body to block goblins. Against sfm decks your are correct, i can snag their equipment in response to sfm (assuming they were able to search for 0.o lol), I'm not argueing the power of that play. I'm just saying lock pieces like thalia, arbiter, mindcensor, and land disruption are better for the deck. which is why i have sculler as a two of.

the final list i've settled on for now is below

creatures

4 Mom
4 thalia
4 stoneforge
3 bob
3 revoker
3 flickerwisp
2 mirran crusader
2 sculler
2 arbiter
1 mindcensor

Lands

4 marsh flats
4 ports
4 wasteland
4 scrubland
3 plains
3 karakas

artifacts

4 aether vial
1 batterskull
1 jitte

removal

4 swords to plowshares

I see! That clears up a lot. I get your point regarding Arbiter. I think the main argument would be that he'd be flashable with 2 Vial counters, which is interesting. I do think he's still a non-bo with our SFM package and the fact this version does run fetchlands. I just don't think we can really afford it. I can foresee some clunkiness for ourselves. Your list runs Flickerwisp and Mindcensor and Mirran Crusader, so you'd probably up your Vial to 3 at some point anyways.

lol, how is arbiter insane against elves. They honestly don't care to pay 6 for there natural order, ok they have GSZ but even for them they can most of the time pay 2 more.

I do have to agree with Jitse. I don't think Arbiter will be enough to really stop Elves. Elves is just a horrible match up vs. D&T. We might be able to have a better match-up when we bring in the discard package. I think Sculler might even be better here. He'd enable us to take key pieces, like Natural Order or even Glimpse of if we're really lucky, their singleton Craterhoof Behemoth (chances are small, though).

Regarding the match-up vs. combo; of course Thalia is amazing and awesome, but some decks can play around her, like Sneak and Show. I don't know ... I feel Sculler can be worth it for various reasons. Grabbing a crucial StPS, Bolt, Abrupt Decay or some other form of removal can be really awesome. Taking a Brainstorm can be devastating as well at certain points in the game. Taking combo pieces can buy us even more time. D&T and this deck won't be fast decks and I think Sculler can be a good way to buy time. Get a body into play and getting them off of keypieces.

I'd have to thoroughly playtest this version to see if I can maybe drop a few to open slots for other creatures.

[ragamuffinvb]

lol, how is arbiter insane against elves. They honestly don't care to pay 6 for there natural order, ok they have GSZ but even for them they can most of the time pay 2 more.

i never said he was insane, i said he slows them down long enough for you to get a jitte online. with him the elves match up is 50/50 which is about as good as you could ask for. I've tested this matchup extensively, and if you don't think there is a diferrence between four for a natural order and paying six then you are mistaken. You could test him yourself if you don't believe me.

[Tokugawa]

i never said he was insane, i said he slows them down long enough for you to get a jitte online. with him the elves match up is 50/50 which is about as good as you could ask for. I've tested this matchup extensively, and if you don't think there is a diferrence between four for a natural order and paying six then you are mistaken. You could test him yourself if you don't believe me.

Does he slows you down long enough for you to get a jitte online? Is there a diferrence between two for a mystic and paying four?

[Richard Cheese]

Went 4-0 with this at the local today, 8-0 in games:


2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas

2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares

SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 4 Duress


Quick report from memory:

Round 1 vs. AnT - Game 1 I Inquisition away a Burning Wish, then take another with Sculler, then drop a Thalia and Mom. Game 2 I Duress an LED, top deck a Thalia, keep porting his land, then Mirran Crusader runs away with it.

Round 2 vs. RUG - Game 1 he mulls to 5 but I have Inquisition/Sculler for his only action. I think he manages to flip a Delver but I get SoFI on Thalia and blow up everything. Game 2 he actually has a hand, but I get an early Thalia, which unbeknownst to me kept him off Fire the whole game while he struggled to find a third land. He manages to land a Goyf and Forces RiP, but I have Crusader to vial in and break the stalemate.

Round 3 vs. Elves - This guy is way better at Magic than me, but after I take his Glimpse with T1 Inquisition, he puts me on something grave-based (probably TinFins), and Green Suns for Ooze T2. I manage to drop two moms and a Jitte, and push through a couple attacks to kill some Elves. I'm getting eaten by two Deathrites though, until I manage to land Crusader and get Jitte on him. Apparently I could have won a couple turns earlier than I did, because I'm dumb at maths. Game 2 I play Mom turn 1, Canonist T2, and Revoker T3 to turn off his Heritage Druid. From there Crusader with a Batterskull on it gets nuts.

Round 4 vs. Shardless BUG - Game 1 I think I just ran away with a SoFI-equipped Thalia, he apparently drew into all his Abrupt Decays and no business, but I had Mom online so they weren't doing him much good. Game 2 he gets DRS online, and an early Shardless into Visions, and I eventually drop to 1. Even though I've got the board clogged up with Mom/blockers, I've got a Bob in play and rip...land, then draw StP for the turn. I send my own Bob plowing and keep having to tap Mom to push Thalia + SoFI through his massive Goyf so I can keep killing his Deathrites. I keep expecting an Abrupt decay but he just draws discard and another Goyf so I manage enough blockers to get lethal through.

Split top 4 because I had some things to get done before meeting friends for dinner. Deck felt good all day though. I've never played D&T, but from watching it I feel like the two biggest weaknesses are lack of turn 1 disruption, and lack of draw, and this build addresses both of those, without having a ton of dead draws late in the game like more discard-heavy builds. It does have a weakness to resolved artifacts/enchantments, and is also somewhat weak to opposing -x/-x effects. Those are both fairly easy problems to solve with the right board if the meta demands it though. Overall I think a D&T hybrid is really the direction Deadguy wants to be going right now. The format is full of greedy manabases and having targeted discard on top of resource denial feels very powerful against most of the current DTB.

[ragamuffinvb]

Went 4-0 with this at the local today, 8-0 in games:


2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas

2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares

SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 4 Duress


Quick report from memory:

Round 1 vs. AnT - Game 1 I Inquisition away a Burning Wish, then take another with Sculler, then drop a Thalia and Mom. Game 2 I Duress an LED, top deck a Thalia, keep porting his land, then Mirran Crusader runs away with it.

Round 2 vs. RUG - Game 1 he mulls to 5 but I have Inquisition/Sculler for his only action. I think he manages to flip a Delver but I get SoFI on Thalia and blow up everything. Game 2 he actually has a hand, but I get an early Thalia, which unbeknownst to me kept him off Fire the whole game while he struggled to find a third land. He manages to land a Goyf and Forces RiP, but I have Crusader to vial in and break the stalemate.

Round 3 vs. Elves - This guy is way better at Magic than me, but after I take his Glimpse with T1 Inquisition, he puts me on something grave-based (probably TinFins), and Green Suns for Ooze T2. I manage to drop two moms and a Jitte, and push through a couple attacks to kill some Elves. I'm getting eaten by two Deathrites though, until I manage to land Crusader and get Jitte on him. Apparently I could have won a couple turns earlier than I did, because I'm dumb at maths. Game 2 I play Mom turn 1, Canonist T2, and Revoker T3 to turn off his Heritage Druid. From there Crusader with a Batterskull on it gets nuts.

Round 4 vs. Shardless BUG - Game 1 I think I just ran away with a SoFI-equipped Thalia, he apparently drew into all his Abrupt Decays and no business, but I had Mom online so they weren't doing him much good. Game 2 he gets DRS online, and an early Shardless into Visions, and I eventually drop to 1. Even though I've got the board clogged up with Mom/blockers, I've got a Bob in play and rip...land, then draw StP for the turn. I send my own Bob plowing and keep having to tap Mom to push Thalia + SoFI through his massive Goyf so I can keep killing his Deathrites. I keep expecting an Abrupt decay but he just draws discard and another Goyf so I manage enough blockers to get lethal through.

Split top 4 because I had some things to get done before meeting friends for dinner. Deck felt good all day though. I've never played D&T, but from watching it I feel like the two biggest weaknesses are lack of turn 1 disruption, and lack of draw, and this build addresses both of those, without having a ton of dead draws late in the game like more discard-heavy builds. It does have a weakness to resolved artifacts/enchantments, and is also somewhat weak to opposing -x/-x effects. Those are both fairly easy problems to solve with the right board if the meta demands it though. Overall I think a D&T hybrid is really the direction Deadguy wants to be going right now. The format is full of greedy manabases and having targeted discard on top of resource denial feels very powerful against most of the current DTB.

congrats on the finish, I'm glad the deck felt great for you the entire day. I will agree that a death and taxes shell is probably the best course going forward with the deck... the amount of disruption that thalia, wasteland, and port can provide is a huge tool paired with a powerful turn one vial. The only thing I would disagree with is the inclusion of main deck discard spells outside of sculler. I don't think turn one thoughtseize is better than turn one vial. The amount of disruption our land base and creatures can produce creates a virtual card advantage that favors us. Tun one vial is the most powerful play the deck can make, as our lands become free to disrupt our opponent and we play our creatures for free. When i first started brewing my list i started out with four main deck discard spells in thoughtseize and inquisition... as i started playing the list I would notice that more and more I would just end not playing the discard spell as there were more relevant things to do, like playing aether vial turn, or porting their land on turn two/ hard casting a thalia which doesn't jive as well with discard spells. I think sculler provides more then enough discard as he flows with the overall game plan better, and not running discard allows u to run more physical disruptive bodies like revoker, thalia, or stoneforge. That's just my two cents tho.

I do have a question though, how did you feel about maindeck swamps in your list?

[DemolitionColorScheme]

It does have a weakness to resolved artifacts/enchantments, and is also somewhat weak to opposing -x/-x effects. Those are both fairly easy problems to solve with the right board if the meta demands it though. Overall I think a D&T hybrid is really the direction Deadguy wants to be going right now. The format is full of greedy manabases and having targeted discard on top of resource denial feels very powerful against most of the current DTB.

Congrats on the win! Excellent! Regarding the resolved artifacts / enchantments; the regular D&T list has the same issue pre-boarding, so it's no surprise that this list runs into the same issues.

The amount of disruption that thalia, wasteland, and port can provide is a huge tool paired with a powerful turn one vial. The only thing I would disagree with is the inclusion of main deck discard spells outside of sculler. I don't think turn one thoughtseize is better than turn one vial. The amount of disruption our land base and creatures can produce creates a virtual card advantage that favors us. Tun one vial is the most powerful play the deck can make, as our lands become free to disrupt our opponent and we play our creatures for free. When i first started brewing my list i started out with four main deck discard spells in thoughtseize and inquisition... as i started playing the list I would notice that more and more I would just end not playing the discard spell as there were more relevant things to do, like playing aether vial turn, or porting their land on turn two/ hard casting a thalia which doesn't jive as well with discard spells. I think sculler provides more then enough discard as he flows with the overall game plan better, and not running discard allows u to run more physical disruptive bodies like revoker, thalia, or stoneforge. That's just my two cents tho.

I do have a question though, how did you feel about maindeck swamps in your list?

I agree with ragamuffinvb; I didn't feel the pre-board discard was really needed with Sculler here and I feel that it should be SB material, hence my list.
I also feel that basic Swamps aren't needed at all, especially in the version with Bob and Sculler main and discard in the SB. Besides, like I've said before; 3 Karakas really need to be in there.

I did some playtesting yesterday; transformed my D&T list to the Deadguy Ale & Taxes list I posted yesterday. I have to say I really like it a lot. Having Vial always on 2 enables our draws to be much more streamlined. I did miss the Flickerwisps, but it's just because this version has less evasion with the absensce of Flickerwisp and Aven Mindcensor. I therefore do feel we really need those Serra Avengers in there. I do feel we run less removal without Flickerwisp. Flickerwisp has a lot of utility going on and it sets a good clock, but I really don't know what to drop for it, since it isn't really a tax-like-effect anyways. I also feel I should at least run 1 to 2 Mirran Crusader, but will have to see what I would have to drop for it.

The thing I did notice and think is a shame is that we're much more sensitive to Stifle and Wasteland again. Basically every land in our deck has Wasteland or Stifle-target printed on them, haha. It's part of just not running the mono white list, but it doesn't mean it isn't frustrating.

[ragamuffinvb]

Congrats on the win! Excellent! Regarding the resolved artifacts / enchantments; the regular D&T list has the same issue pre-boarding, so it's no surprise that this list runs into the same issues.


I agree with ragamuffinvb; I didn't feel the pre-board discard was really needed with Sculler here and I feel that it should be SB material, hence my list.
I also feel that basic Swamps aren't needed at all, especially in the version with Bob and Sculler main and discard in the SB. Besides, like I've said before; 3 Karakas really need to be in there.

I did some playtesting yesterday; transformed my D&T list to the Deadguy Ale & Taxes list I posted yesterday. I have to say I really like it a lot. Having Vial always on 2 enables our draws to be much more streamlined. I did miss the Flickerwisps, but it's just because this version has less evasion with the absensce of Flickerwisp and Aven Mindcensor. I therefore do feel we really need those Serra Avengers in there. I do feel we run less removal without Flickerwisp. Flickerwisp has a lot of utility going on and it sets a good clock, but I really don't know what to drop for it, since it isn't really a tax-like-effect anyways. I also feel I should at least run 1 to 2 Mirran Crusader, but will have to see what I would have to drop for it.

The thing I did notice and think is a shame is that we're much more sensitive to Stifle and Wasteland again. Basically every land in our deck has Wasteland or Stifle-target printed on them, haha. It's part of just not running the mono white list, but it doesn't mean it isn't frustrating.

I'm not gonna lie, i feel like you could honestly just run three bobs and three sculler instead of the playset of four if your looking for room for flickerwisps. Bob as a three of has been the perfect number for me, as many of the other creatures are just much more important to get online and going like thalia, revoker, and stoneforge. Usually I've resolved the lock on my opponent is when i vial in the Bob, in testing this has always been the final nail in the coffin. I'm running flickerwisp as a three of now as I've cut the singleton mangara entirely from the list. Flickerwisp is just an underwhelmin in terms of the power and options he provides.

[Richard Cheese]

Congrats on the win! Excellent! Regarding the resolved artifacts / enchantments; the regular D&T list has the same issue pre-boarding, so it's no surprise that this list runs into the same issues.


I agree with ragamuffinvb; I didn't feel the pre-board discard was really needed with Sculler here and I feel that it should be SB material, hence my list.
I also feel that basic Swamps aren't needed at all, especially in the version with Bob and Sculler main and discard in the SB. Besides, like I've said before; 3 Karakas really need to be in there.

I did some playtesting yesterday; transformed my D&T list to the Deadguy Ale & Taxes list I posted yesterday. I have to say I really like it a lot. Having Vial always on 2 enables our draws to be much more streamlined. I did miss the Flickerwisps, but it's just because this version has less evasion with the absensce of Flickerwisp and Aven Mindcensor. I therefore do feel we really need those Serra Avengers in there. I do feel we run less removal without Flickerwisp. Flickerwisp has a lot of utility going on and it sets a good clock, but I really don't know what to drop for it, since it isn't really a tax-like-effect anyways. I also feel I should at least run 1 to 2 Mirran Crusader, but will have to see what I would have to drop for it.

The thing I did notice and think is a shame is that we're much more sensitive to Stifle and Wasteland again. Basically every land in our deck has Wasteland or Stifle-target printed on them, haha. It's part of just not running the mono white list, but it doesn't mean it isn't frustrating.

I disagree on the discard issue. I think if you want to have a chance against fast combo like TES/Belcher/TinFins, you need to be doing something productive on turn 1. With Wastes and Ports, Sculler is also not necessarily a guaranteed turn 2 play. I don't think we want to be running so much discard that we have a bunch of dead draws late in the game, but enough that we can reasonably expect to mulligan into it if necessary.

[raikenxy]

[QUOTE=Richard Cheese;776393]I disagree on the discard issue. I think if you want to have a chance against fast combo like TES/Belcher/TinFins, you need to be doing something productive on turn 1. With Wastes and Ports, Sculler is also not necessarily a guaranteed turn 2 play. I don't think we want to be running so much discard that we have a bunch of dead draws late in the game, but enough that we can reasonably expect to mulligan into it if neccesary

I would politely disagree on that point. I think running out aether vial is the most productive thing this deck can do against any deck, even against combo having the ability to play thalia for free, bounce her with karakas then vial her back in upon resolution of the spell their using to kill her is so backbreaking for any combo deck... running four discard gives you eight dead draws mid-game when you combine them with aether vial. You do have a chance against fast combo since we run thalia. Tinfins is like what.... .001 of the current meta ? Belcher dies to every other deck playing force of will, also dies to a turn two thalia, as does tes. If you get killed turn one by any of these decks they had a god draw on you, nothing i'd be too concerned about. Land disruption followed by thalia and revoker is the perfect way to combat tes and tinfins, it plays better to the overall strategy to the deck and allows you to get your vial active immediately... since belcher doesnt play land u should just be focused on getting thalia plus revoker down as their rituals provide exact mana half the time. If they kill you turn one it happens, but it won't happen often. Hedging against it is i think is just unnecessary

[DemolitionColorScheme]

I disagree on the discard issue. I think if you want to have a chance against fast combo like TES/Belcher/TinFins, you need to be doing something productive on turn 1. With Wastes and Ports, Sculler is also not necessarily a guaranteed turn 2 play. I don't think we want to be running so much discard that we have a bunch of dead draws late in the game, but enough that we can reasonably expect to mulligan into it if necessary.

I get your point. I think this does go for TinFins and Belcher a bit, I guess (in case of bad luck, really, I wouldn't worry too much about those decks), TES/ANT not so much per sé, since it's slower anyways. I get your reasoning, but this is exactly why I've opted for discard in the SB. I mean, D&T prays most upon the fair decks in the meta and has a decent chance vs. 'regular' combo. However, insanely fast combo is gonna be a coin flip, most of the time. For those match-ups, you bring in the discard and other options. I guess it's preference, seeing as I don't want to pick up too much discard vs. fair decks, because I don't want to pay 1 black + colorless to fire off a Thoughtseize while I'd rather be Port-locking and having Thalia out, which in 80% of our match-ups is the most important thing we should do.

With combo, you board out Mom and your StPS, most of the time. So, having lost those 4 StPS opens up 4 other slots for instants/sorceries that you have to pay extra for with Thalia. Running 4 discard and 4 StPS main kinda messes with our Port-lock-plan.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

I'm not gonna lie, i feel like you could honestly just run three bobs and three sculler instead of the playset of four if your looking for room for flickerwisps. Bob as a three of has been the perfect number for me, as many of the other creatures are just much more important to get online and going like thalia, revoker, and stoneforge. Usually I've resolved the lock on my opponent is when i vial in the Bob, in testing this has always been the final nail in the coffin. I'm running flickerwisp as a three of now as I've cut the singleton mangara entirely from the list. Flickerwisp is just an underwhelmin in terms of the power and options he provides.

Yeah, maybe, cutting Bob to 3 is a possibility, but then I've got a spot for 1 Flickerwisp. Which means I would need to cut down other creatures as well if I wanted to get at least 3 Flickerwisp.
By the way, I really don't mind having 2 Bobs out. Of course, it's a risk, but the fuel we get is insane, haha.

[JanoschEausH]

I have abandoned this deck because of the bad matchup against anything running Punishing Fire. Now with TNN everywhere this deck gets alot of collateral damage from any -X/-X spells. How do you see your Matchups against such decks (TNN-Blade and Jund especially)?

[DDS5]

I have abandoned this deck because of the bad matchup against anything running Punishing Fire. Now with TNN everywhere this deck gets alot of collateral damage from any -X/-X spells. How do you see your Matchups against such decks (TNN-Blade and Jund especially)?

I went 6-3 with it at SCG Vegas Open


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