I would personally keep in decay for sulfuric vertex. I'm sure they bring it in. Especially if they see a finks tusk or huntmaster
Also thought seize is much better. Not vs burn, but elves like you said, and against SnT as well.
The burn i played with didn't even sided on our match. But I would say that, from the version of main deck he played, he probably didn't run vortex. Maybe some skullcracks.
Enviado de meu Nexus 4 usando Tapatalk
Ok Ralf, hat's off to you for a sweet design. I got to play a bunch today, both goldfishing and testing with a friend. We played a few pre-board matchups with both BUG Pod (the Gleicher list more or less) and your BUG PW Fit, and played it against Goblins, DnT and MUD. My general observations were:
1) This deck feels like it topdecks worse than Pod versions - too many bad topdecks when hellbent (deed, decay, negate all felt bad + the usual VE and CT). Pod lists have the nod here since they run more creatures, so more threats in a hellbent vs. hellbent situation.
2) The PW heavy deck means sometimes my early hands get clogged, and I need to Brainstorm away a PW just to get some early gas (VE+CT, Decay, Deed, etc). But then shuffling them away often led to durdling and topdeck wars, and the PW-heavy deck means that you can often get in bad situations (Jund topdecks a BBE and all of a sudden your Jace is dead and you're way behind). Jace takes a while to actually kill. I also found myself wanting more Ashioks, because sometimes his ability is just stupidly good --> it just gives the middle finger to Brainstorm, Ponder and SDT.
3) When the deck is clicking, it was blast to play. Like you said, the 'walkers protect each other well. I think BUG Pod has a better combo matchup in its current form (Riptide Pilferer is great, and maybe this deck needs it too).
4) I want to play around with the 'walker count and configuration. When you're trying to put the game away, you really want that Vraska, or even Ashiok, because Jace is too slow and Liliana doesn't reliably kill. There's little more satisfying than Ashiok'ing someones TNN, and using that abomination to beat them up. Just in general, most decks are running value creatures that are the most efficient, so you don't even have to suicide Ashiok most of the time to get good impact. Also I get to make custom Assassin's Creed tokens for Vraska.
I'll post back my results after I mess around with the configurations. Changes I'm testing initially:
-1 VE
-1 Negate
-2 Strix
+2 DRS
+1 Ashiok
+1 GSZ
I also want to fit in an Engineered Explosives - might just run it as the 61st card right now. Its a turn faster than Deed but can't kill Jace. So a 3/1 split of Deed and EE seems like a good test.
Thanks for your feedbacks.
Actually it is hard to design a deck and the more we test it the better the list will evolve.
I went a different road than you after all, but not by much.
I took out the 4*brainstorm as I often felt what I needed most was to have the right card a the right time.
-4 brainstorm
-2 Baleful strix (I guess we had the same feeling, here I might test coiling oracle one day)
-1 Cabal Therapy (I hate missing on a CT and it happens so many times, it feels like a mulligan...)
+2 DRS (mana fixing, life/death and could be an acceleration for a PW turn 2)
+2 Thoughtseize (I feel like it improves the cabal therapy value so much), 5 discards MD is >50% to have one in your starting hand
+2 Diabolic intent (the true brainstorm replacement)
+1 GSZ (this was in/out, playing with 60 or 61 now it is in with more green target)
I also thought about EE and you might be right as I used to pack 1 maelstrom pulse MD but felt clunky. Another mass sweeper is certainly right.
I'm glad you have a good feeling with ashiok !
I'll keep you posted as I will have in the very near future a lot of training sessions with some friends against the whole DTB/most common established decks.
What do you think guys about this new planeswalker? As all planeswalkers she can be good in Nic fit.
http://imageshack.us/a/img138/9093/ly04.jpg
I mean in BUG walker fit you are less worried about that since you are running a 5 mana card in vraska, but I just don't think the abilities are amazing. I mean I do like the fact that you can essentially lock a creature down every turn, or ramp up and draw, but it is really bad against TNN and red decks. It will probably be decent in standard, but I don't see it being good in this deck.
Greetings folks,
I hate to move the conversation away from talk over the new planeswalker, but, I was wondering if you folks could answer a couple questions about the deck or at least point me in the right direction.
Recently, I've been re-examining the gifts package in a Nic Fit deck. I'm a big fan of having a proactive strategy that includes piles of silver bullets and a reliance on inevitability.
I've noticed some people say, recently, that the gifts shell isn't a practical plan and doesn't measure up. I'd love it if you could explain that to me.
Also, I'd really like some assistance in addressing the show and tell matchup. Most times I play it, I seem to get obliterated. I've been playing force of wills in an effort to not get killed on t1, but, it doesn't seem to be winnable until I get to the sideboard and I don't want to overboard for the matchups just because my approach is lacking. Any tips?
Legacy: UWr Miracles and Nic Fit
Modern: RG Tron and Nauseam Combo
Established Scrub.
1. Welcome to the Nic Fit thread ^_^
2. Two things come to mind with the Gifts Ungiven and Intuition piles. First, Green Sun's Zenith is ultimately a better for getting silver bullets, not because the ammo it gets is so good, but because it doesn't dick around and puts that silver bullet right into effect. Second, you have to build around the Gifts Ungiven and Intuition, which, when we're already running Veteran Explorer and Green Sun's Zenith in BUG, can limit deck building strategies. Not to mention some of the best uses for Intuition (not so much experience with Gifts) require some very situational cards.
3. What's your blue count like? If you're not sitting at 15-18 with Forces, don't even bother running Forces. Run Thoughtseize instead and throw in a Melira, Sylvok Outcast and Glen Elendra Archmage package in the side instead.
4. Addenum to 3: For your main, focus only on fair decks, and then dedicate 10-12 slots in the sideboard to combo hate (3 slots reserved for Carpet of Flowers, which practically turns certain matchups into byes).
Thanks for the welcome!
After Forces and singleton Notion Thief, I'm up to 16 Blue sources.
The list I'm running looks like this:
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Coiling Oracle
1x Snapcaster Mage
2x Eternal Witness
1x Fierce Empath
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Mystic Snake
1x Acidic Slime
1x Thragtusk
1x Deadeye Navigator
1x Rune-Scarred Demon
1x Grave Titan
4x Brainstorm
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Gifts Ungiven
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Regrowth
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Jace, the Mindsculptor
1x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Phyrexian Tower
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Misty Rainforest
4x Forest
3x Swamp
3x Island
I'd be interested in improving the list. I like that the gifts packages gives me a proactive plan and a means of quickly establishing Thragtusk/Nightmare
However, if the veterans here see any issues, I'd love to hear what they have to say.
Legacy: UWr Miracles and Nic Fit
Modern: RG Tron and Nauseam Combo
Established Scrub.
Hmm ... your creature base is begging to be used with Birthing Pod, but the other spells say straight BUG Fit.
Let me mull it over a bit.
I love intuition and gifts, but I just think there are better shells for it. Though you could do some sweet piles. Maybe you could run like a volraths stronghold, loam and single wasteland? I have had some trouble with random utility lands.
Overall, your list looks like its trying to do too much at once without an actual focus. Even the Gifts plan is tricky since you only run 2 Gifts Ungiven and an already pretty robust suite of recursion. I suggest focusing on getting Stronghold+Tower online or Deadeye with Swagtusk to really overpower the competition.
Snap serves as Gifts 2.5 and sometimes the extra in making sure I get exactly what I want out the pile.
Slime is just a do good, take care of cards (like tarpit) card.
Rune Scarred serves as a threat that can also get unique parts of the combo (often mystic snake)
The deck is operating off of a couple of points:
#1 Thragtusk + Nightmare is insane. Setting that up usually wins you the game
#2 Deed takes care of 90% of the deck's problems, as long as you can search for it and recur it, you don't need much removal
#3 If anyone ever messes with your graveyard, you need a backup plan to still do insane things: Deadeye
I think the list looks a lot like a pile, but, one problem I've always been frustrated with, regarding Nic Fit, is that it can often have a lot of dead draws. I've found that the list doesn't have that problem as often as other lists I've played.
EpicLevelCommander,
In terms of your changes, I like the direction you're going with it and the criticism you're providing makes a lot of sense. However, I think dropping recurring nightmare is a mistake. I think the card is insane, especially with the lack of graveyard hate.
I think just because gifts isn't completely optimized in the nic fit shell, doesn't mean that it can't be incredibly successful.
That said, if I ever go in a straight BUG shell without the gifts package, you're list makes a lot of sense. I love playing top and I've been trying to find room for a 2nd Jace, even though he's at an all-time level of uselessness more often than I'd like.
Legacy: UWr Miracles and Nic Fit
Modern: RG Tron and Nauseam Combo
Established Scrub.
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