All B/R update speculation.

[Barook]

So what are they going to do next? Ban Mana Leak in Modern?

[Dice_Box]

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...g/daily/ld/191

"One of the problems is that Mana Leak is simply a much more powerful card than we would be comfortable printing under modern development rules. Similar to why the Swords are so powerful—their costs were locked in before people really understood how to price Equipment—Mana Leak is a relic of a bygone era."

"We realized, though, that to solve our Mana Leak problem we really wanted to print something like Boseiju, Who Shelters All—some kind of land that everyone could play that would incidentally blow some hate in Mana Leak's direction. So we decided to add "Boseiju" text to the card that became Cavern of Souls."

[Fatal]

As much as I love SotF will never goes back to legal card pool - its still very powerful - imagine Elves with it ;], on the other side SotF looks too slow to current format compared to S&T variation - it really changes since VV/Ooze domination, probably some playtests are needed to answer this question.

[Darkenslight]

As much as I love SotF will never goes back to legal card pool - its still very powerful - imagine Elves with it ;], on the other side SotF looks too slow to current format compared to S&T variation - it really changes since VV/Ooze domination, probably some playtests are needed to answer this question.

I suspect that Survival's main issue is that it's both an engine and a finisher all on its own.

[Star|Scream]

I just read an article that said Mana Leak is too powerful a card in Modern.

Huh? That article is over a year old, and it's about standard.

[Dice_Box]

Oh shit, I mistook it for Modern.

My opinion remains unchanged, control of this game is in the hands of people who do not actually play it, only those whom read data and make choices purely on personal opinion. I would like to see some change at the top.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

The Mana Leak bunkum is a fine example of how they treat this game. While "15/15 omnomnom6" - ppl, I love this quote! - is fine, something as shitty as conditional counterspell ain't. Oh, what a game.
Really the mere fact that there's no real Tempo in Modern (not to mention in Standard) makes me laugh. Seriously, looking at the old decklist that packed Daze, Foil, Gush, Mis-D and Thwart, or Unmask and Snuff Out. or Land Grant plus Vine Dryad, or you know whatever else, leaves me wondering what's wrong with the whole idea of alternative mana costs and such stuff. Ok, Mental Misstep wasn't the best card ever, otoh, I can't believe that Modern is meant to be a cmc4.format.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

The Mana Leak bunkum is a fine example of how they treat this game. While "15/15 omnomnom6" - ppl, I love this quote! - is fine, something as shitty as conditional counterspell ain't. Oh, what a game.
Really the mere fact that there's no real Tempo in Modern (not to mention in Standard) makes me laugh. Seriously, looking at the old decklist that packed Daze, Foil, Gush, Mis-D and Thwart, or Unmask and Snuff Out. or Land Grant plus Vine Dryad, or you know whatever else, leaves me wondering what's wrong with the whole idea of alternative mana costs and such stuff. Ok, Mental Misstep wasn't the best card ever, otoh, I can't believe that Modern is meant to be a cmc4.format.

Glad ya like it ^_^

The biggest problem that comes with alternative costs is the lack of color identity for a lot of them. Phyrexian mana was a big, BIG problem in this regard, as pretty much everything with it can be splashed into any deck that would use it (in MM's case, that was everything).

Other than that, I dunno: I have no problem with them myself, but Wizard's contemporary R&D policy makes me scratch my head.

[Lord Seth]

The Mana Leak bunkum is a fine example of how they treat this game. While "15/15 omnomnom6" - ppl, I love this quote! - is fine, something as shitty as conditional counterspell ain't. Oh, what a game.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure decks with Emrakul were a heck of a lot less dominant in Standard than UW Delver was.

Eldrazi Green was certainly overshadowed in its respective Standard environments by Jund and Caw-Blade.

[Megadeus]

What about hellcarver demon eldrazi strategies? (I tried my hardest to make it work)

[mini1337s]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure decks with Emrakul were a heck of a lot less dominant in Standard than UW Delver was.

Eldrazi Green was certainly overshadowed in its respective Standard environments by Jund and Caw-Blade.

Emrakul was just in the Eldrazi Green/Summoning Trap decks. Valakut was easier and more consistent to play if you wanted a quick finish, and Caw-Blade was just too good at control the board state.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure decks with Emrakul were a heck of a lot less dominant in Standard than UW Delver was.

Eldrazi Green was certainly overshadowed in its respective Standard environments by Jund and Caw-Blade.

Wait, I'm not talking avbout particular metagame/format, I'm more concerned by the fact that while stupid "I win!" cards are fine in the eyes of R&D, the best counterspell is either conditional cmc2 or unconditional cmc3 double U. Lolwut?

[bjholmes3]

Well, in all honesty, it's a good marketing decision. I spend lots of time trying to teach new people Magic, and it's universal: if you Show & Tell into Sneak Attack into Emrakul, they are impressed (now, if it was a longer combo, they might get bored), but if you counter everything they try to do, they're pissed. See, they don't expect to win, but they do expect to play, and when they aren't used to circumventing hate, they feel like they don't get to play at all. So, R&D is simply pandering to the majority party of people that do not play Magic in an attempt to get them to, well, play Magic.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Well, in all honesty, it's a good marketing decision. I spend lots of time trying to teach new people Magic, and it's universal: if you Show & Tell into Sneak Attack into Emrakul, they are impressed, but if you counter everything they try to do, they're pissed. See, they don't expect to win, but they do expect to play, and when they aren't used to circumventing hate, they feel like they don't get to play at all. So, R&D is simply pandering to the majority party of people that do not play Magic in an attempt to get them to, well, play Magic.

Yu-Gi-Oh! the Gathering: where players don't care if a game ends by turn 2 with no interaction, but flip tables when you do interact with them.

EDIT: Let me clarify: I love M:tG. I'm glad I made the conversion from YGO to M:tG. But contemporary R&D policy has me scratching my head so much that, sadly enough, I will only play Legacy or EDH now. Formats where there is indeed degeneracy, but also ways to stop said degeneracy.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

That's it.
I do understand that it's frustrating to never have one spell resolved, but so is the Dark Confidant into Liliana, into Pulse, into Goyfs, Goyfs, Goyfs, into gg. I still don't know what's so broken about Counterspell, while Emrakul and similar Timmy stuff is fine. Really, I'm not interested in Necro Summer 2.0 (or anything similarly broken to happen) in Standard, but I'm just surprised that there's no cheap countermagic in this game anymore, because little boys do cry.

See, they don't expect to win, but they do expect to play...

While I once again get your point, this is the exact reason why I quit the Casual/EDh long long ago. First of all: isn't having my creature countered the same as having it Terrored once it etb? Second: since when it is "not playing" when the opponent coutners something? Third: ok, so if itS' so painful to lose to counterspells, what about strategies that laugh at it, like uncounterability, undercosted dudes, my own CS, lands destruction, Ashen Ghouls, all that stuff. Seriously, this is so Timmy: lay lands until turn seven, then run head first into Counterspell and learn the lesson; but instead of changing your strategy/playstyle, next time just bring Emrakul.
IDK, that's pretty crappy way of MtG.

Also, although this might be good for starters and casual horde, I still don't get it why there are no other tempo tools available in Modern. Lets say we got Snare and Pierce and that's about it. Is Daze so pretty powerful it can't be reprinted anymore? I know that color identity is a thing, but honestly Shoals (and several Traps) were very good at this. Are Contagion-like spells too good for Modern?

[Barook]

It's somewhat hypocritical to hate on counters alone. Every blowout by stupid shit you can't do anything about feels bad.

My personal guess is that you need counters to interact with counterspells. That's why it feels bad for many players. It's another case of blue having everything, including the best answers to itself. That's how inbred the color is.

[Lord Seth]

Wait, I'm not talking avbout particular metagame/format, I'm more concerned by the fact that while stupid "I win!" cards are fine in the eyes of R&D, the best counterspell is either conditional cmc2 or unconditional cmc3 double U. Lolwut?

Except the article was talking about a particular format, namely Standard. I don't see any dissonance between thinking that a card that was a bit player in its respective Standard (Emrakul) is not a problem whereas a card that was a big part of a dominant deck (Mana Leak) was problematic.

I do think there was a fair amount of stupid in that article, but I don't see the relevance of the Emrakul analogy.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It's somewhat hypocritical to hate on counters alone. Every blowout by stupid shit you can't do anything about feels bad.

My personal guess is that you need counters to interact with counterspells. That's why it feels bad for many players. It's another case of blue having everything, including the best answers to itself. That's how inbred the color is.

This is not 100% true:

Discard beats counterspells.
Cheap dudes beat counterspells.
Sideboard stuff like City of Solitude beats counterspells. (Yet casuals don't use sideboard, as sideboard is unjust and cowardly.)
Uncounterable non-Timmy cards beat counterspells, while not necessarily being a "You lose!" stuff.
Recuring threats beat counterspells.
Numeral advantage beats counterspells. (Try counter everything when three players pact against you.)
Etc.

Casuals are imbeciles. They first make a law saying "this and that is unjust, cowardly and against the spirit of competi... sry, communal game MtG is" and then they're surprised that they lose to Dissipate.

No matter what, I still don't see any reason why there can't be tempo tools in Modern, but fortunately I don't see any reason why should I play the format, so it doesn't hurt me so much.


EDIT:

Except the article was talking about a particular format, namely Standard. I don't see any dissonance between thinking that a card that was a bit player in its respective Standard (Emrakul) is not a problem whereas a card that was a big part of a dominant deck (Mana Leak) was problematic.

I do think there was a fair amount of stupid in that article, but I don't see the relevance of the Emrakul analogy.

Ahem... But I didn't write about a particular format! I simply don't care what's happening in some Standard (that won't be Standard anymore in three/six/nine months), I'm writing about the whole game. I dislike the mere idea that Mana Leak is a problematic card, while 15/15 omnomnom6 dude isn't. This makes a pretty fugly view of game's future, you know? More Timmy stuff, less interaction.

[Lord Seth]

Ahem... But I didn't write about a particular format! I simply don'T care what's happening in some Standard (that won't be Standard anymore in three/six/nie months), I'm writing about the whole game. I dislike the mere idea that Mana Leak is problematic card, while 15/15 omnomnom dude isn't. This makes a pretty fugly view of game's future, you know? More Timmy stuff, less interaction.

But the relevant article was about a particular format.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

But the relevant article was about a particular format.

And I tried to move discussion further from one particular format. But...