All B/R update speculation.

[(nameless one)]

I currently don't mind Modern. I play the format (I play mono blue Tezzerator) but I don't own half of my cards. I just borrow them from my friends.

I think Modern would be better if it had more disruption (like Mental Misstep). Maybe other cards can be unbanned.

I think it's okay that the format doesnt have Brainstorm because it's what makes true aggro actually viable.

In Legacy, true aggro isn't viable anymore because the control player can already control the game by turn 2-3 in which the Aggro player can't really do much anymore.

Its funny because the fear of Legacy isn't about losing to a turn one combo anymore but rather having your hand/board/the stack controlled by your opponent by turn 2 all thanks to the most efficient disruption/board control cards held together by real efficient cantrips and card draws. Personally I don't mind this as it makes for an intelligent game but you can't argue that to the players who cry about how Mana Leak is too powerful.

I think the current state of Modern is as is because of my point above.

[Megadeus]

There's a "true aggro" deck in the format?

[nedleeds]

I think the Affinity Galvanic Blast deck probably qualifies, as well as the mono red goblin shared animosity decks qualify. The fucking Knight deck I lost to was pretty god damn aggro when I had a hand full of bolts and he had every pro red man ever printed.

[Megadeus]

Forgot affinity was a thing. That is true. That Knights deck was... weird. White Weenie knights featuring Mainboard Wrath of god. Sure thing.

I kind of forgot. Why are we discussing modern on this post again?

[Lord Seth]

There's a "true aggro" deck in the format?

If we look at the TC Decks link that was made earlier, for December the #2 deck in Modern was Affinity, the #3 was Merfolk, and #6 was Zoo. Now to be fair, Merfolk and Zoo being so high up is a very recent development (compare their placings in November), so perhaps that's just a temporary shift in meta. Though Merfolk has long been an "okay" deck. Still, Affinity has been one of the best decks in the format for a long time.

That said, much depends on what you mean by "true aggro," because Affinity functions quite differently than your regular ol' aggro deck.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I currently don't mind Modern. I play the format (I play mono blue Tezzerator) but I don't own half of my cards. I just borrow them from my friends.

I think Modern would be better if it had more disruption (like Mental Misstep). Maybe other cards can be unbanned.

I think it's okay that the format doesnt have Brainstorm because it's what makes true aggro actually viable.

In Legacy, true aggro isn't viable anymore because the control player can already control the game by turn 2-3 in which the Aggro player can't really do much anymore.

Its funny because the fear of Legacy isn't about losing to a turn one combo anymore but rather having your hand/board/the stack controlled by your opponent by turn 2 all thanks to the most efficient disruption/board control cards held together by real efficient cantrips and card draws. Personally I don't mind this as it makes for an intelligent game but you can't argue that to the players who cry about how Mana Leak is too powerful.

I think the current state of Modern is as is because of my point above.

Anyone who complains Mana Leak is too powerful is an idiot. This includes Wizards. Oh a Standard deck has Hexproof creatures and we didn't realize Hexproof is about 10x better than Shroud so it's all undercosted. Standard has Git Probe, Thought Scour, and Ponder. Standard has equipment for the hexproof creatures to carry. Standard has a free burn spell and a black spell that can be played by any color. Oh standard also has a free counterspell and Delver. Standard also has a flash creature that allows all these spells to be replayed. Standard also has a 3/4 flyer with flash that negates removal blinks a creature (including Snapcaster) and allows for the most annoying combat tricks in recent memory. Did I mention all these cards are in the same deck, oh and it runs Delver, of course. Oh by the way the problem with Standard right now is Mana Leak. Seriously about the least aware thing Wizards has ever said IMO.

[Dice_Box]

Someone put that in the Quotes thread, I have the last two posts so it's out of place for me to do it.

[Dzra]

Since the TNN thread was closed as I was typing this long ass post, I'll go ahead and post it here. lol

Stuff like Thalia doesn't get the job done.

Actually, cards like Thalia and Deathrite Shaman are exactly the kind of cards that we need to see. They are both powerful creatures outside of Blue that punish the opponent's use of cheap instants and sorceries. The problem isn't that Thalia is bad; it's that there aren't enough good creatures like her. We don't need some sort of shitty Notion Thief anti-Brainstorm hate. Give Red things like a Pyrostatic Pillar with legs and it'll see play.

Saying "I don't want Brainstorm banned because I like the card" is fine, it's your opinion and you are entitled to it. Just like I can say, "I want Necropotence unbanned because I like the card" and despite the incredulity of my opinion it's still my opinion.

Except resolving Necropotence wins you the game almost on the spot. Resolving Brainstorm makes your hand a little better.

The skill intensive line is a favorite one of mine because it implies that one of the ban criteria is that a card that's hard to use should be allowed to exist because of it's depth.

No one says that there aren't other skill intensive cards in the format.

Brainstorm makes targeted discard (an as skillful magic task as resolving a Brainstorm) a miserable effort in the middleing turns (2-4).

... and this is problem because Black should have unhindered access to the most powerful/flexible removal in the game?

Brainstorm supercharges other powerful cards like Stoneforge Mystic, Lion's Eye Diamond, <all fetches>.

This is an eternal format, I don't see a problem with good cards making other good cards better. LED makes Infernal Tutor better. Griselbrand makes SNT better. Compared to that, shipping two extra land out of my hand and then fetching seems fine.

By fact Brainstorm removes much of the skill in deck building (which basically nobody does anyway, so maybe it's moot), since if you have Island and fetchlands and no (Chalice on 1 or Chains) there are no common reasons not to run it. Only the most threat dense no fetch blue decks that tap out during their turn would eschew it (see: Merfolk).

As you point out, there are decks that simply don't want Brainstorm. Those tend to be the linear aggro or combo decks that don't really care about what their opponent is doing because they perform the same tasks in every game and thus have no need to filter selective answers out of their hand. These decks, decks like Fish and Oops All Spells are what would benefit most from a Brainstorm banning. Sounds good right?

By fact Brainstorm removes much of the risk or decision making during mulliganing as it and a fetchland can effectively unmulligan your hand. This alone would merit ban consideration compared to some of the refuse that sits on the banned list currently.

This sounds like a great argument to unban more cards. I don't see what it has to do with banning Brainstorm. Again, all we are saying is that Brainstorm + fetchland is a two-card combo that has the potential to make your hand at most 50% better, depending on what you draw.

It's ubiquity and efficiency aren't debatable. It's power level isn't much more debatable. So to sit here and actually debate a 1UU 3/1 that doesn't win the game upon entering the battlefield being ban worthy while Brainstorm runs rampant is laughable.

Is your problem that a lot of people like playing Brainstorm or that other colors are less powerful than Blue? A lot of people will always like playing Brainstorm, so yes, if your goal for some reason is to see a significantly smaller number of Brainstorm decks then the most efficient way to do that is to just ban Brainstorm. If your goal is to make non-Blue decks more viable then your strategy should be getting more powerful non-Blue cards, especially creatures, printed. Thalia was a good start for White; Ari Lax won eternal weekend with Death and Taxes in the current TNN-meta after all. A Pyrostatic Pillar.creature would be a good start for Red.

[Dice_Box]

On Brainstorm, I feel the issues with it are twofold and fixable.

First issue, that it does push blue. Brainstorm is the most powerful card in the format, no if's or buts. It has favourably found itself compared to Recall, it's able to just do things other card can not and there is nothing like it in any other colour. This I think brings it the hate it gets, fully deserved and not without merit

The second issue is that it's a card without equal that is also without good hate. Yes Chalice can stop it, but you have to build your deck around Chalice to use it. Chains is not really a maindeck card and only people like myself whom have come to admit we are addicted to the game but don't care would buy one.

So the answer is easy, print hate. Make the card even more skill extensive as now you have to play it around hate cards. Black can have Chains on legs, Red can have Burn, White increased tax effects and Green could have creatures that grow in size for each card drawn. They may not be perfect answers, but they are a start.

Brainstorm does not need a ban, it needs an equaliser. I personally hope that we see one printed some day.

[apple713]

Brainstorm does not need a ban, it needs an equaliser. I personally hope that we see one printed some day.

agreed. The equalizer needs to be better cards in other colors though, not something that interacts with brainstorm. The other colors need something to search and dig with.

[Dice_Box]

But they already have that with Top and the small amount of Scry cards that exist. My Painter deck runs Magma Jet not for the burn ability of the card.

[apple713]

But they already have that with Top and the small amount of Scry cards that exist. My Painter deck runs Magma Jet not for the burn ability of the card.

yeah but there needs to be more cards like sensei's top for the other colors. Not saying it should be colorless. It should be unique to the color but every color should have something solid that fills the role of brainstorm in increasing consistency for those colors.

Scry is a very weak ability as it exists right now. Its very very limited. Theros brought some decent cards to the mix, but nothing for legacy.

[Barook]

Actually, cards like Thalia and Deathrite Shaman are exactly the kind of cards that we need to see. They are both powerful creatures outside of Blue that punish the opponent's use of cheap instants and sorceries. The problem isn't that Thalia is bad; it's that there aren't enough good creatures like her. We don't need some sort of shitty Notion Thief anti-Brainstorm hate. Give Red things like a Pyrostatic Pillar with legs and it'll see play.

Thalia, ok, but DRS seems like a stretch since it can utilize your own spells as well.

I'm all for printing more powerful hatebears on Thalia level. Despite the depth of the format, there are some blind spots that are poorly addressed, e.g. Brainstorm or cheating stuff into play from non-graveyard zones. Chains with legs (and a combat-relevant ability) and Pyrostatic Pillar dude sound like a good start - actually, they're pretty overdue. Chains wordy, but its essence could be easily dumbed down to something like this:

Faust
Creature - Human Wizard
Deathtouch
Spells and abilities can't cause players to draw cards.
2/1

I'm also waiting for the red hatebear that nukes players for stuff cheated into play or played for free. Nice FoW - take another 5. Emrakul? Take 15.

yeah but there needs to be more cards like sensei's top for the other colors. Not saying it should be colorless. It should be unique to the color but every color should have something solid that fills the role of brainstorm in increasing consistency for those colors.

Scry is a very weak ability as it exists right now. Its very very limited. Theros brought some decent cards to the mix, but nothing for legacy.

Top doesn't fit every strategy anyway. Scry has the problem that it causes extra costs that make most spells unattractive for Legacy.

Red could easily have a card-neutral loot spell for card filtering that doesn't involve fucking random discard for once.
Black has good card draw, not just cheap one.
White - no idea.
Green draw is mainly associated with creatures. Why not some cheap creatures that manipulates the library? Like a Mirri's Guile with legs which you can also GSZ for?

[davelin]

I love some of these creature ideas. Since green is supposed to be the enemy of blue, how about something like -

Greater River Boa (1G)
Protection from Blue
1/1
When an opponent draws a card outside their draw step, put a +1/+1 counter on ~

[Bed Decks Palyer]

agreed. The equalizer needs to be better cards in other colors though, not something that interacts with brainstorm. The other colors need something to search and dig with.

That's what I wrote not a week ago. Imao it's either time to throw away the whole idea of color pie, now when blue is all over it. Or, they should make some blue hosers. Or thrid: lets design viable antiblue deck... Maverick 2.0

I love some of these creature ideas. Since green is supposed to be the enemy of blue, how about something like -

Greater River Boa (1G)
Protection from Blue
1/1
When an opponent draws a card outside their draw step, put a +1/+1 counter on ~

This is not symmetrical enough. You may still play your own BS. (And the opponent may BS in draw.)

Swift Rattlesnake (1G)
Flash
When an opponent draws a card outside their draw step, put a +1/+1 counter on ~.
When you draw a card outside of your draw step, remove a +1/+1 counter from ~.
1/1

Otoh, see how many Lorescale Coatls are played, even though you may feed them with your own BS. Be dependant on a BS that opponent might play... meh. Dude needs flash at the very least.

[Erdvermampfa]

Size is something that matters the least in magic, we don't need something that outgrows them but that punishes them so much for doing the usual overpowered shit that people actually start to reconsider if it's worth to run Brainstorm/Force/Show and Tell etc.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Size is something that matters the least in magic, we don't need something that outgrows them but that punishes them so much for doing the usual overpowered shit that people actually start to reconsider if it's worth to run Brainstorm/Force/Show and Tell etc.

True. So one dmg per card?

[Barook]

True. So one dmg per card?

Are your from Wizards' R&D? "Opponent does something broken. Better ping him for 1 damage, that sure will show him!"

History shows that pinging won't do jackshit. Depending on what the opponent does, shocking or bolting are the absolute minimum to punish your opponent. When a player gets 2 damage per drawn card from Brainstorm, they would quickly start to reconsider their position, especially in multiples. And when an opponent cheats an Emrakul into play, he deserves a 15 damage nuke to the face, not some lousy one damage itty-bitty pingy-stingy.

Size is something that matters the least in magic, we don't need something that outgrows them but that punishes them so much for doing the usual overpowered shit that people actually start to reconsider if it's worth to run Brainstorm/Force/Show and Tell etc.

Absolute symmetry is key here. Otherwise, said cards just end up in blue decks.

[davelin]

That's what I wrote not a week ago. Imao it's either time to throw away the whole idea of color pie, now when blue is all over it. Or, they should make some blue hosers. Or thrid: lets design viable antiblue deck... Maverick 2.0


This is not symmetrical enough. You may still play your own BS. (And the opponent may BS in draw.)

Swift Rattlesnake (1G)
Flash
When an opponent draws a card outside their draw step, put a +1/+1 counter on ~.
When you draw a card outside of your draw step, remove a +1/+1 counter from ~.
1/1

Otoh, see how many Lorescale Coatls are played, even though you may feed them with your own BS. Be dependant on a BS that opponent might play... meh. Dude needs flash at the very least.

I think lack of flash is fine, I was thinking ProBlue so that TNN wouldn't be able to block it forever.

[davelin]

Are your from Wizards' R&D? "Opponent does something broken. Better ping him for 1 damage, that sure will show him!"

History shows that pinging won't do jackshit. Depending on what the opponent does, shocking or bolting are the absolute minimum to punish your opponent. When a player gets 2 damage per drawn card from Brainstorm, they would quickly start to reconsider their position, especially in multiples. And when an opponent cheats an Emrakul into play, he deserves a 15 damage nuke to the face, not some lousy one damage itty-bitty pingy-stingy.


Absolute symmetry is key here. Otherwise, said cards just end up in blue decks.

Or just make it cost GG