All B/R update speculation.

[miguelmatix]

Well... That Exalted mystic became even better.
Those guerilla apes are pretty Nice too (zoo and rug).

Right now there's nothing in the cardpool that needs to be banned.
What wee NEED are unbanings. Specialy mind twist and black vise. Maybe survival and seal could also see the sun again. Afterall we have already graveyard hate for survival and the seal is slow.. If seal's price is too high reprint it in commander or something..

Peace. :)

[Dice_Box]

Black Vise is getting a lot of talk on Salvation. It's interesting how polarising it has been. Some swear it would break the format by forcing every deck to either run fast or die. The others think it would be fine, since it could be used to push decks like Stax to the mainstream. I personally do not know how I feel about the card but I have my reservation about its safety.

[(nameless one)]

Black Vise is getting a lot of talk on Salvation. It's interesting how polarising it has been. Some swear it would break the format by forcing every deck to either run fast or die. The others think it would be fine, since it could be used to push decks like Stax to the mainstream. I personally do not know how I feel about the card but I have my reservation about its safety.

I don't know about Stax. You don't want your win condition to be countered by a Chalice at one.

[Dzra]

What wee NEED are unbannings. Especially mind twist and black vise. Maybe survival and seal could also see the sun again. Afterall we have already graveyard hate for survival and the seal is slow.. If seal's price is too high reprint it in commander or something..

Imperial Seal? Yeah, I doubt that'd hurt anything too much. Mind Twist is very safe. I haven't thought too much about Black Vise though. Really, I'd love to see Survival unbanned. While it isn't the safest thing to unban, I think it offers the most opportunities for positive growth in the format.

[Zombie]

Black Vise is getting a lot of talk on Salvation. It's interesting how polarising it has been. Some swear it would break the format by forcing every deck to either run fast or die. The others think it would be fine, since it could be used to push decks like Stax to the mainstream. I personally do not know how I feel about the card but I have my reservation about its safety.

The times I've played Vice it has either been a Lightning Bolt, or turned an awkward draw into a near-certain loss that played out torturously slowly. You either lose to Vise or you lose to making bad plays to evade Vise. The card is a shit.

[apple713]

Imperial Seal? Yeah, I doubt that'd hurt anything too much. Mind Twist is very safe. I haven't thought too much about Black Vise though. Really, I'd love to see Survival unbanned. While it isn't the safest thing to unban, I think it offers the most opportunities for positive growth in the format.

IMO imperial seal under no circumstances should be unbanned. Even as Sorcery its too good. I'd splash black instantly for this in Sneak and show. It increases consistency so much.

survival is along the same lines as hermit druid, a 1 card combo.

The times I've played Vice it has either been a Lightning Bolt, or turned an awkward draw into a near-certain loss that played out torturously slowly. You either lose to Vise or you lose to making bad plays to evade Vise. The card is a shit.

id say the majority of decks run pretty fast in legacy so late game this isn't a great draw unless you are playing prision. Combined with sphere of resistance, thalia, and thorn it could be very very strong.

[Zombie]

The times I've played Vice it has either been a Lightning Bolt, or turned an awkward draw into a near-certain loss that played out torturously slowly. You either lose to Vise or you lose to making bad plays to evade Vise. The card is a shit.

id say the majority of decks run pretty fast in legacy so late game this isn't a great draw unless you are playing prision. Combined with sphere of resistance, thalia, and thorn it could be very very strong.

To clarify what seems like a misunderstanding: I meant Vise in an opener and an awkward opener that they might still be able to work with if they're good from my opponent. Vise robs that possibility from them.

[Lemnear]

Black Vise is getting a lot of talk on Salvation. It's interesting how polarising it has been. Some swear it would break the format by forcing every deck to either run fast or die. The others think it would be fine, since it could be used to push decks like Stax to the mainstream. I personally do not know how I feel about the card but I have my reservation about its safety.

Pair it with Wasteland, Daze and Stifle and you have a colorless Delver of Secrets (3 evasive damage per turn) without the danger of it being Disfigured/Bolted/Sworded.

Totally Fair.


MUD/Staxx is a concept of mana surpremacy as your lands make 2 mana while your opponents only 1. You can pay for spheres, your opponent can't. If you have 6+ mana by turn 3 why would you play Vise over Batterskull/Wurmcoil in such a deck?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Dzra, I like what you've done with my cards, but the Marshland Guerillas are kinda nombo with Sylvan Library, and I'm not sure if Zoo wants them.
Also, I liked the Book-Burning Efreet's pumping ability... you know, he eats some books to burn more!

On the unbannings (so that we move away from "Create a new crappy card" contest):
- I'm not sure if Mind Twist is safe, but I guess that it could be unbanned. After all, they may ban it again, although this will be told about at the campfires for centuries. Otoh, I remeber playing against the card (although it was when Mana Vault was Type II legal) and you know, it's not really funny card...when you're on the receiving end. It's also a quite bomby.
- SotF: I just voted I'd love it unbanned. So yeah, we all know reasons why it was strong, but don't forget that times changed (DRS, PIF, SnT.dec) and also: cards should not be punished fro ppl's laziness to metagame and sb. A small note: SotF would maybe allow Madness decks, and I find this idea really nice.
- Frantic Search is a fine card that could be tried. Its effect is quite powerfl, butthen again it's card DA, it costs fortune, might not be used elsewhere than in Reanimator, Tide or some kind of mono-U combo/control I can't imagine yet.
- Black Vise should stay on the list, this card is a perfect example of stupid tool that has an ability to make the game really frustrating. I can't imagine how this could improve the format in any way.
- Imperial Seal? Rather not.

As a sidenote: I hoard Mind Twist, Frantic Search and Black Vise. I'll purchase a set or two of SotF (in case they'd unban it and I find myself/Slosh in a need to play ATS), other thn that, I'll hoard the remaining three and see what happens.

[Gheizen64]

Vise sucks and would see no play outside of some fringe stasis lists who would draw every match in every tournament and annoy people all around the world. If unbanned, it would have exactly 0 impact, worse than Lava Spike.

[miguelmatix]

Does personal tutor see play in sneak and show? Why is seal tht much better? Costs 2 life and cant be removed for force..
Besides, black mages should always have a black and eficient tutor. :)
This is legacy: we play the best.

The solution for 50% of the problematic Cards should come with the printing of new and playable hate. Not banning the Card.

[Tammit67]

You certainly don't want a good topdeck tutor legal in the format now that gitaxian probe exists. Storm/reanimator would have a field day and would bring back the possibility of tutoring singleton answers to problematic hate cards out of your opponent while providing consistency when that's not the case. The card is stronger than mystical tutor and I dont see that being advocated for.

That and the price of the card would be unreal. English currently go for +$600, imagine if a couple legacy decks required 4?!?

[miguelmatix]

You certainly don't want a good topdeck tutor legal in the format now that gitaxian probe exists. Storm/reanimator would have a field day and would bring back the possibility of tutoring singleton answers to problematic hate cards out of your opponent while providing consistency when that's not the case. The card is stronger than mystical tutor and I dont see that being advocated for.

That and the price of the card would be unreal. English currently go for +$600, imagine if a couple legacy decks required 4?!?

Mystical seems stronger to me. Blue instant without life cost. The seal price? Reprint it along with the R. The dilu horse.
P3k cards are stupid expensive.. :/

[nodahero]

Imperial is WORLDS better then Mystical, particaullry in Sneak and Show. The ability to have access to ANY card, particularly combo piece, is sooo much more powerful then only getting access to Show and Tell, counters or cantrips. I will gladly pay 2 life and use my mainphase for that.

While I would love having Survival back, I don't think it is safe enough to unban. The Hermit Druid analogy is very accruate and I agree fully.

As for Blackvise, Frantic, and especially Mind Twist, have at it. I don't think any of those will be too powerful. Honestly, I think the only card that would get any real long term play is Twist. Frantic would get played alot in the beginning, but as the hype died the card would fade alot also.

[(nameless one)]

Remember when all the rage was about how Land Tax was broken and it gave too much card advantage.

I made it my mission to break the card and the only thing I did with it was that single top8 at a MTG Salvation tournament before I concluded that the card actually is mediocre at best.

I think it's best to test the mentioned banned card on the fire. Lets unban them and see how they actually work with the current card pool.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Remember when all the rage was about how Land Tax was broken and it gave too much card advantage.

I made it my mission to break the card and the only thing I did with it was that single top8 at a MTG Salvation tournament before I concluded that the card actually is mediocre at best.

I think it's best to test the mentioned banned card on the fire. Lets unban them and see how they actually work with the current card pool.

Actually I remember Land Tax being a long running joke and it seemed like 90% of the people on the forum understood it was never close to being OP in Legacy.

Imperial is WORLDS better then Mystical, particaullry in Sneak and Show. The ability to have access to ANY card, particularly combo piece, is sooo much more powerful then only getting access to Show and Tell, counters or cantrips. I will gladly pay 2 life and use my mainphase for that.

While I would love having Survival back, I don't think it is safe enough to unban. The Hermit Druid analogy is very accruate and I agree fully.

As for Blackvise, Frantic, and especially Mind Twist, have at it. I don't think any of those will be too powerful. Honestly, I think the only card that would get any real long term play is Twist. Frantic would get played alot in the beginning, but as the hype died the card would fade alot also.

Frantic Search is pretty damn good in High Tide considering you are sometimes able to chain multiple Frantic Searches together and at the point where you are playing FS you are done playing lands anyways.

[clavio]

Remember when all the rage was about how Land Tax was broken and it gave too much card advantage.

Nope

[apple713]

Vise sucks and would see no play outside of some fringe stasis lists who would draw every match in every tournament and annoy people all around the world. If unbanned, it would have exactly 0 impact, worse than Lava Spike.

if it were played in a deck like stasis the matches would finish faster than miracles and lands.deck .... 3 life a turn is a lot.

Does personal tutor see play in sneak and show? Why is seal tht much better? Costs 2 life and cant be removed for force..
Besides, black mages should always have a black and eficient tutor. :)
This is legacy: we play the best.

The solution for 50% of the problematic Cards should come with the printing of new and playable hate. Not banning the Card.

personal tutor doesn't get either part of the combo. Some cards don't allow hate such as infernal tutor.

example : I'm on the play and cast t1 tutor, there is nothing you can do to prevent me getting that card other than FOW. Mental misstep was printed and banned cause it was the hate that solved most of the issues.

You certainly don't want a good topdeck tutor legal in the format now that gitaxian probe exists. Storm/reanimator would have a field day and would bring back the possibility of tutoring singleton answers to problematic hate cards out of your opponent while providing consistency when that's not the case. The card is stronger than mystical tutor and I dont see that being advocated for.

That and the price of the card would be unreal. English currently go for +$600, imagine if a couple legacy decks required 4?!?

if it was unbanned they'd probably mass print it in something like commander and then a judge promo. They should probably print it as a judge promo and leave it banned tho imo.

Imperial is WORLDS better then Mystical, particaullry in Sneak and Show. The ability to have access to ANY card, particularly combo piece, is sooo much more powerful then only getting access to Show and Tell, counters or cantrips. I will gladly pay 2 life and use my mainphase for that.

While I would love having Survival back, I don't think it is safe enough to unban. The Hermit Druid analogy is very accruate and I agree fully.

As for Blackvise, Frantic, and especially Mind Twist, have at it. I don't think any of those will be too powerful. Honestly, I think the only card that would get any real long term play is Twist. Frantic would get played alot in the beginning, but as the hype died the card would fade alot also.

frantic search would see play in high tide maybe, but i think it'd be nice in reanimator.

[Gheizen64]

if it were played in a deck like stasis the matches would finish faster than miracles and lands.deck .... 3 life a turn is a lot.



personal tutor doesn't get either part of the combo. Some cards don't allow hate such as infernal tutor.

example : I'm on the play and cast t1 tutor, there is nothing you can do to prevent me getting that card other than FOW. Mental misstep was printed and banned cause it was the hate that solved most of the issues.



if it was unbanned they'd probably mass print it in something like commander and then a judge promo. They should probably print it as a judge promo and leave it banned tho imo.



frantic search would see play in high tide maybe, but i think it'd be nice in reanimator.

Ebony Owl was considered better than Vise in stasis when MM was legal since it dodged it, and also because it was a slightly faster clock (4 instead of 3) that you could cast under eventual chalices. It wouldn't be that much better even now that MM is banned. Stasis problem is that the deck just fold to FoW and a lot of decks are just often not as affected (Vial etc...).

[nedleeds]

Vise sucks and would see no play outside of some fringe stasis lists who would draw every match in every tournament and annoy people all around the world. If unbanned, it would have exactly 0 impact, worse than Lava Spike.

All true. Does burn really want to top deck a turn 4 black vise?