All B/R update speculation.

[Zilla]

All true. Does burn really want to top deck a turn 4 black vise?

It does if it's holding a Shrapnel Blast!

format = broken

[Megadeus]

Burn with Shrapnel Blast and 4 Black Vise and 4 Outstanding Furnace. GG bitches.

[Will_L]

Burn with Shrapnel Blast and 4 Black Vise and 4 Outstanding Furnace. GG bitches.

Last time I built burn (for a friend) I tried to make Shrapnel Blast work

4 Great Furnace and 3 Cursed Scroll / Isochron Scepter... It still wasn't that great tbh

[(nameless one)]

Last time I built burn (for a friend) I tried to make Shrapnel Blast work

4 Great Furnace and 3 Cursed Scroll / Isochron Scepter... It still wasn't that great tbh

Are you the guy that runs Thirst for Knowledge/Multiple Jittes/Seat of the Synod in Merfolk at Friendly Troll?

[Megadeus]

Last time I built burn (for a friend) I tried to make Shrapnel Blast work

4 Great Furnace and 3 Cursed Scroll / Isochron Scepter... It still wasn't that great tbh

Nah I broke the format. Black Vise is too good.

[Griselpuff]

I think the most unbannable cards are

1. Mind Twist
2. Black Vise (might be too strong vs. hard control, which already struggles)
3. Earthcraft (not sure it'll add any interactivity to the format)
4. Windfall (helps storm, which isn't an interactive deck)

These are more iffy and shouldn't be touched until those cards above are all unbanned. I guess I'm just arguing that these cards wouldn't demolish the format, not that they should be unbanned.

5. Imperial Seal (needs to be reprinted)
6. Memory Jar (Expensive but combo's with Welder)
7. Yawgmoth's Bargain (Expensive, might be too good with Show and Tell as drawing in chunks of 1 is better than chunks of 7)
8. Goblin Recruiter (Takes too long)
9. Worldgorger Dragon (Makes it too easy to draw if you can't interact with Entomb Animate Dead. Power level wise easily unbannable)

So basically I'd just start with Mind Twist.

[Feaor]

Is Mind Twist even playable? 3 mana for Hymn seems pretty bad, it only gets better with a lot of fast mana but at that point aren't there more degenerate things you could be doing with that mana? The only possible place where it might be good is in the control mirror so I guess its at best a sideboard card?

[Will_L]

Are you the guy that runs Thirst for Knowledge/Multiple Jittes/Seat of the Synod in Merfolk at Friendly Troll?

Heh... Nope. I am unfortunately almost 2 hours away from TO... I hear the Friendly Troll is a great shop.

Thirst in Merfolk though... Well, whatever I guess. People play whatever they want to play

[Megadeus]

Is Mind Twist even playable? 3 mana for Hymn seems pretty bad, it only gets better with a lot of fast mana but at that point aren't there more degenerate things you could be doing with that mana? The only possible place where it might be good is in the control mirror so I guess its at best a sideboard card?

Yeah control mirror, and I was thinking in Nic Fit or 4 Color Loam as a Burning Wish target maybe. Other than that? Seems poor. Mind twisting yourself to mind twist your opponent seems... Meh

[FTW]

Is Mind Twist even playable? 3 mana for Hymn seems pretty bad, it only gets better with a lot of fast mana but at that point aren't there more degenerate things you could be doing with that mana? The only possible place where it might be good is in the control mirror so I guess its at best a sideboard card?

I'm pretty sure that card has just stayed perma-banned since 1994 when opponents would rig their 40-card decks to go turn 1 double dark ritual -> Mind Twist for 4 and players would just ragequit. Anyone have any other reason why that card is banned?

[Dice_Box]

No, that sounds about right.

Edit, would be a fun side card in Elves. You could empty the other guys hand turn 2.

[Lemnear]

I'm pretty sure that card has just stayed perma-banned since 1994 when opponents would rig their 40-card decks to go turn 1 double dark ritual -> Mind Twist for 4 and players would just ragequit. Anyone have any other reason why that card is banned?

It was banned during a time where peeps dropped their Artifact mana in form of Beta Moxen, Sol Rings, Mana Vaults and Co. to mindtwist opponents for 4-5 in their turn 1 or after casting mana drain against a 4cc+ Spell in form of an anti-braingeyser in the early turns, making the game a joke afterwards.

Someone should tell WotC that this was before Legacy and Vintage were created and Legacy does not have such permanent fastmana. The best decks abusing Mindtwist today would be NicFit, being able to create up to 5 mana turn 2 or Elves blowing you out turn 2/3.

[Fatal]

T1 Sol land -> Grim Monolith
T2 tap all, swamp -> Mind Twist for 5..

Yes legacy doesn't have fast mana XD.

Anyway I'm not sure about Mind Twist which can broke ecosystem in control mirrors.

[frenchy-man]

I think I'd rather have my jace or elspeth comes successfully on the board than a big hymn...

[Lemnear]

T1 Sol land -> Grim Monolith
T2 tap all, swamp -> Mind Twist for 5..

Yes legacy doesn't have fast mana XD.

Anyway I'm not sure about Mind Twist which can broke ecosystem in control mirrors.

You know that you invested a card (Monolith) and 4 life to do so turn 2 which simply get Dazed or Pierced? It's the same weak move like double Dark Ritual on turn 2. Moxen and Sol Ring aren't card disadvantage and back when there were no alternate cost Counters or 1cc ones. I hope I don't have to explain the difference between playable turn 1 and playable turn 2 and it's impact to the game.

Mindtwist is unplayable in Legacy control without mana Drain and even if both were legal, dropping Jaces and batterskulls is much more powerful than Twist.


You all should know that cards like Mindtwist and Earthcraft only remain banned for PR reasons. WotC promotes to shrink the B&R lists in Legacy and Vintage over time, so every time they need to ban a card in Legacy/Vintage they unban another one to not grow the B&R list, but at least, keep the number of banned cards identical. You can see that behavior during the last 12 years

[FTW]

You know that you invested a card (Monolith) and 4 life to do so turn 2 which simply get Dazed or Pierced? It's the same weak move like double Dark Ritual on turn 2. Moxen and Sol Ring aren't card disadvantage and back when there were no alternate cost Counters or 1cc ones. I hope I don't have to explain the difference between playable turn 1 and playable turn 2 and it's impact to the game.

As a main strategy, yes. However, every mana-happy combo or prison deck that wants to side into Thoughtseize and friends for protection against hate can now just side into Mind Twist, generate a small amount of mana, and empty opponent's hand on turn 2 to cast fun things on turn 3+. Storm still probably just wants to SB into Duress... mini-storming to try to bait counters and then trolling with a Mind Twist is funny but probably win-more (lose-more).

MUD (T2 Mind Twist for 8 with 2 mana open, c/o Metalworker) or Glimpse Elves might like to SB into Mind Twist very much.

Also
Sol Land + Mox -> Mind Twist @ 2 on turn 1
Sol Land + Grim Monolith + Mox -> Mind Twist @ 3 on turn 1.

Sol Land (+ maybe Mox) -> Chalice @ 1 / 3sphere on turn 1
Swamp/Sol Land/Grim Monolith/Mox -> Mega Mind Twist on turn 2
That's a pretty narrow application and I'm not sure it's any better than just playing Lodestone Golem or another resistor in those situations but might make Demon Stompy playable.

While none of those is a degenerate unbeatable strategy, even an unprotected T2 Mind Twist pretty much pwns any deck that doesn't play blue and didn't Thoughtseize you on turn 1, invalidating most aggro strategies and embarassing combo decks... I mean, Goblins, Elves, Death & Taxes, Maverick, Enchantress, Nic Fit, Team Italia, Zombardment, Burn, 8Tezz, Merfolk (w/o the counter in hand), and any non-blue combo deck that didn't go off yet scoops to T2 Mega MindTwist with any half-assed clock to follow up on turn 3. May not have a positive effect on the metagame, driving up the price of Island. I could see a reasonable argument for caution there. We don't need more blue-based aggro control. Although I doubt enough people would actually sleeve up Mind Twist for that to happen... it'd probably just be like the T1 Blood Moon, which theoretically pwns the format but is way too inconsistent for a critical mass of people to want to actually play.

[Lemnear]

All that brings us to the question: How does unbanning Mindtwist benefit the Format?

[Gheizen64]

All that brings us to the question: How does unbanning Mindtwist benefit the Format?

By making a black card more playable? By making midrange slightly better? What deck which generate lots of mana early is currently viable in this format? Elves? I wouldn't run Twist in elves. Maybe sideboard but still. Nic Fit is a T2 deck. BUG cascade wouldn't play it. Dark ritual is a bad card outside of storm, and you wouldn't want to waste mana on twist in storm, just play a duress/thoughtseize and it's better for what u need.

[FTW]

All that brings us to the question: How does unbanning Mindtwist benefit the Format?

Yeah, exactly. While it may not prove to be that broken or consistent against tier 1 decks, I don't see unbanning it doing anything positive. It wouldn't open up any creative fair strategies and would only get played by people trying to troll the format, inconsistently at that. Probably why no one has bothered to unban it, similar to Worldgorger Dragon.

[Lemnear]

Yeah, exactly. While it may not prove to be that broken or consistent against tier 1 decks, I don't see unbanning it doing anything positive. It wouldn't open up any creative fair strategies and would only get played by people trying to troll the format, inconsistently at that. Probably why no one has bothered to unban it, similar to Worldgorger Dragon.

Precisely

By making a black card more playable? By making midrange slightly better? What deck which generate lots of mana early is currently viable in this format? Elves? I wouldn't run Twist in elves. Maybe sideboard but still. Nic Fit is a T2 deck. BUG cascade wouldn't play it. Dark ritual is a bad card outside of storm, and you wouldn't want to waste mana on twist in storm, just play a duress/thoughtseize and it's better for what u need.

I don't see that making mindtwist "playable" via unbanning (what a basic logic) does anything new, fancy, spectacular, desired to the format other than creating some "unfair" blowouts in cornercases. I bet, the non-blue crowd of Legacy would be on the fences soon, waving torches. Turn Legacy into Troll-Country? Please....

All the Big-Mana decks of Legacy (12-post, NicFit, Elves, Storm, MUD, etc.) rather cast game winning bombs than Mindtwist. Even midrange would rather play a Thragtusk than a Twist against your opponents last 2 cards in turn 6 or 7. Mindtwist has no purpose to fullfill in Legacy other than trolling People, therefore no one cares for the card comingoff the list