[Deck] Merfolk

[Windmill]

Not sure, that I think is a personal thing. What I was testing was my current build with -2 Ree, +2 PI. I do not think that, even with 23 fish, a build with 4 image and 4 Silvergill is smart. I get that I can copy the other players stuff, but that's not always useful to my own game plan. Maybe side in two PI?

You've had way more experience than me, you probably know better. How often were you happy to draw your Reejerys? Did you cast them much?

[Dice_Box]

That's the thing about Ree. It's a great card as a lord, but it tends to be the last card to go down due to cost and the use of Vial. So his secondary ability, when useful is a godsend, is often unused. He is in all effects just a 3 drop Lord that is not vitally important. But when you need that secondary ability, sometimes you just pull a game from no where.

I think Ree has great lines of play with Standstill. But when you cut Standstill, he loses some of his drive. Because one extra card a turn is normally a simple thing to use, 3 in a turn and you need the speed he grants. I am wondering if he is not better replaced with PI as I test, but then I hit the Silvergill Wall. Maybe it's just dud draws, but those two can really hate on one another.

The other option I have been kicking around is Inkfathom Infiltration. A 2 drop that is totally unblockable. The issue here is with lords, most of the time everything is any way. So as much as the idea appeals, I am thinking Spreading Seas is a better choice there.

The last choice is Thassa, sometimes I wonder if we are overlooking the best 3 drop we can get. But then I play with her, watch her be a dead draw and just sigh. Taking Standstill from this deck really does far more to it than first appears.

[Windmill]

I am not sad that standstill is gone. I am sad that the meta no longer makes is viable I think people have seemingly been holding onto the standstill line of play for far too long, as a hold-over from the past. TNN made everyone reassess it. When I first started playing fish a couple of months ago I noticed the card didn't make sense, and didn't know if I was doing something wrong or not. Soon after, it started getting removed. For me, card draw in the biggest weakness in the deck I've found so far.

I also think though that while you might be right in that 4 PI's might not be the answer, we need to have 12 lords, whether they are PI Lords or Reejery. If we go 2x PI + 2x other creature in-place of Reejery, then we are hitting a critically low number of lords (or potential lords). I know my 7 counters MD is not standard, so in most builds, I think we have 4 flexi spots:

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Master of Pearl Trident
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 True-Name Nemesis (debatable but I know to me, 4-of is compulsory now)
4 PI/Reejery, arguably split in any way.

4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Daze (or 3 daze/ 1 spell pierce. 8 counters MD basically)

That leaves 4 flexi spots. I'm right now going -1 daze for +2 Dismember, +3 Sygg. It is always tempting to put in more buffer, aggro creatures, but the consequence is we run out of steam and that card draw is the priority. I think outside of card draw, Kira has a really good shot instead. The reason I've found I need card draw is to regain board position after spot removal has wiped my field. If I can stop the removal, then I won't need so many new cards. In Modern, MoW is virtual card advantage due to the tokens it makes, but in legacy a 4cc is too slow.

[Jankwolf]

Looking at some of the posts on here and I have a few suggestions.

Instead of Thasa or Rejeery why not just split the difference with them and just run Sovereign and get a little of both worlds?
A post I read was commenting on Master of Waves. MoW is good against Jund as a Sideboard card. It's PF proof as well a AD proof all in one.

Now for a proposed list that I haven't tested yet...

3 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergil Adept
4 LoA
4 MoP
3 MS
3 TNN
3 PI

3 Aether Vile

3 Fow
3 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce

12 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard
1 Spell Peirce
3 Divert
2 Master of Waves
3 Relic of P
2 Kira
1 FoW
2 Tidebinder Mage
1 TNN

Thoughts?

[Windmill]

Looking at some of the posts on here and I have a few suggestions.

Instead of Thasa or Rejeery why not just split the difference with them and just run Sovereign and get a little of both worlds?
A post I read was commenting on Master of Waves. MoW is good against Jund as a Sideboard card. It's PF proof as well a AD proof all in one.

Now for a proposed list that I haven't tested yet...

3 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergil Adept
4 LoA
4 MoP
3 MS
3 TNN
3 PI

3 Aether Vile

3 Fow
3 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce

12 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard
1 Spell Peirce
3 Divert
2 Master of Waves
3 Relic of P
2 Kira
1 FoW
2 Tidebinder Mage
1 TNN

Thoughts?

Sovereign is an interesting choice: but I'm more interested in why you've chosen to MD stifle?

[Jankwolf]

Sovereign is an interesting choice: but I'm more interested in why you've chosen to MD stifle?

I like to play the control side of things over going to the overall aggro approach.
Stifleing targets I look for:
Fetchland
Wasteland
DRS
Delver
SFM
Batterskull
Take your pick of Elves! targets.
Anything with Cascade
planeswalkers
Punishing Fire
EE
Snapcaster Mage
Many targets in MUD
Anything with Imprint
Imperial Recruiter...
This list could go on but I'm just listing the highlights of Top 8 deck lists.

[comix84]

Same reason why I want to try Stifle.

I have read your list and I like it just a few questions:

No mutavault at all?
Are not 4 caverns maybe too many?
Are you planning to try anything that could help you to draw? (Stanstill, ponder, Thassa, Sygg etc)
Did the sovereign help you a lot?

Thanks :)


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[BVB09]

I don't know how this deck could play the control role.
I want to be the aggro almost in every MU.
You can't be the control if you don't have the tools for taking control of the board, and this deck definately doesn't have them.
We can't interact with artifacts, enchantments and even with creatures (only a couple dismembers if any).
The only way to beat our dificult MU's (D&T, Goblins, Elves) is having more board presence than then, making them block and lose in the combat thanks to ours lords. Slowing us down with stifle seems terrible.
That's why I'm starting to think the future of the deck should be more aggro oriented than tempo.
At the moment I'm still testing the lord heavier build (to get more value from otherwise weak creatures like cursecatcher and silvergill) with Cavern instead of Wasteland.

[comix84]

I don't know how this deck could play the control role.
I want to be the aggro almost in every MU.
You can't be the control if you don't have the tools for taking control of the board, and this deck definately doesn't have them.
We can't interact with artifacts, enchantments and even with creatures (only a couple dismembers if any).
The only way to beat our dificult MU's (D&T, Goblins, Elves) is having more board presence than then, making them block and lose in the combat thanks to ours lords. Slowing us down with stifle seems terrible.
That's why I'm starting to think the future of the deck should be more aggro oriented than tempo.
At the moment I'm still testing the lord heavier build (to get more value from otherwise weak creatures like cursecatcher and silvergill) with Cavern instead of Wasteland.

The thing is: looking at the result you are totally right. We should start to think more aggro.
My wondering is: will we be that fast to beat decks like Elves ?
Aren't we going to lose a bit too much control against the other Combo / Show and Tell deck?

You said that you are playing "the lord heavier build": how many Merrow and how many PI? And if I have understood well, you are playing the Coreleim right? Any Merfolk / cards that could let you draw (sygg, selkie, ponder, brainstorm, thassa, I imagine that you are not using standstill)?

[Dice_Box]

I will do a full write up in a day or two, but I got hammered hard today. I went in with a game an plan for Elves, Reanimator, Omnishow and Blade. Instead I faced DnT, Blade, Goblins, Gate and Shardless. I beat gate by a country mile and feed the goblins quite a salt water sandwich, but in the end could not get it over the line.

My changes to face elves was to drop Missdirection and add in chalice. I think it's worth another shot. Going to test it with my group some more.

I made a copy of Bob with PI at one point today. That guy is nuts in this deck.

[BVB09]

The thing is: looking at the result you are totally right. We should start to think more aggro.
My wondering is: will we be that fast to beat decks like Elves ?
Aren't we going to lose a bit too much control against the other Combo / Show and Tell deck?

You said that you are playing "the lord heavier build": how many Merrow and how many PI? And if I have understood well, you are playing the Coreleim right? Any Merfolk / cards that could let you draw (sygg, selkie, ponder, brainstorm, thassa, I imagine that you are not using standstill)?

I don't know if it will be fast enough to beat them, but there is no other posible way to deal with those decks. Taking the control role seems like an auto-lose.
Against Show and tell I can say it's a really good MU, even more if you're play mainboard Images as I do, and Needles and Swang Song in the SB.
About other combos like storm i can't tell yet, haven't appeared at my store since I'm playing with cavern :( In any case I would play the aggro role, you can even beat a resolved Emrakul/Griselbrand by attacking with 2-3 creatures and an islandwalk lord.

I'm running 3 Images and 3 Rejeerey maindeck. With 3 Cavern + 4 Mutas + 12 Island.
I'm not running any card draw but I would go for Standstill if i had to chose one. It's more than an aggro card than it may look (by playing aggro I mean overtaking the opponent by being more powerful in the combat phase thanks to lords, and that's something standstill helps for)
I have 3 flex spots on my list, what I most like is +1 Reejerey +1 Cavern +1 Dismember, but i have also tried +2 standstill +1 dismember. Now I'm testing +3 Cosi's trickster.
Saito was more right than I first thought, I have to admit.

However daze's are EXTREMELY weak in the deck without Wasteland. I side them out against some decks even though I'm on the play. The lose most of his value due to the high curve and the caverns instead of wastelands. I don't want to cut them but I'm afraid this build makes such an important part of the deck weak...

[Jankwolf]

Same reason why I want to try Stifle.

I have read your list and I like it just a few questions:

No mutavault at all?
Are not 4 caverns maybe too many?
Are you planning to try anything that could help you to draw? (Stanstill, ponder, Thassa, Sygg etc)
Did the sovereign help you a lot?

Thanks :)

I'm not a huge fan of Mutavault for several reasons. First, I play more counter magic than most. I find that it ties up too much mana for my play style and I would rather leave one mana open for Stifle, Spell Pierce or Divert (Post board). Second, I feel it only shines if you manage to land a standstill without your opponent having creatures on the field. I would much rather run Wasteland which is way more proactive for my Tempo plan.

I can't recall at the moment who posted this one below.

I don't know how this deck could play the control role.
I want to be the aggro almost in every MU.
You can't be the control if you don't have the tools for taking control of the board, and this deck definately doesn't have them.
We can't interact with artifacts, enchantments and even with creatures (only a couple dismembers if any).
The only way to beat our dificult MU's (D&T, Goblins, Elves) is having more board presence than then, making them block and lose in the combat thanks to ours lords. Slowing us down with stifle seems terrible.
That's why I'm starting to think the future of the deck should be more aggro oriented than tempo.
At the moment I'm still testing the lord heavier build (to get more value from otherwise weak creatures like cursecatcher and silvergill) with Cavern instead of Wasteland.

Control was the wrong word. Tempo is the word I should have chosen. And by control I did mean having more counter magic. (Love your spelling by the way)
And How does stifle slow us down? Have you looked at the the decks you listed and seen how stifle is good against them? I'll go over a few scenarios where it will excel.

D&T Stifle targets:
Fiend Hunter
Stone-Forge Mystic
Flickerwhisp
Mangara
Wasteland
Batterskull/Equipment

Goblins Stifle targets:
Wasteland
Matron
Vial
Lackey
Port

Elves has a few targets that I have listed previously.

What's your game plan? Wasting TWO lands on a Mutavault activation? Last time I checked, Stifle only took up one... 1 < 2

[Jankwolf]

Another thing I read earlier about Elves! that someone else mentioned was Cursed Totem. I would like to see some testing results behind that suggestion but It might be enough to slow them down.

[Windmill]

I will do a full write up in a day or two, but I got hammered hard today. I went in with a game an plan for Elves, Reanimator, Omnishow and Blade. Instead I faced DnT, Blade, Goblins, Gate and Shardless. I beat gate by a country mile and feed the goblins quite a salt water sandwich, but in the end could not get it over the line.

My changes to face elves was to drop Missdirection and add in chalice. I think it's worth another shot. Going to test it with my group some more.

I made a copy of Bob with PI at one point today. That guy is nuts in this deck.

DnT is not a favourable match-up at all, neither goblins. The lack of islands is a massive, massiver downer, then you throw piledriver into the mix...

I think that the others (blade, gate and shardless) should be bearable match-ups though for us. I don't think you need any specific hate against Shardless (though misdirection would be pretty sweet against them! Yes, I'll draw the cards thanks) other than tight play, but against blade I think we are at a clear disadvantage game 1. Game 2-3 we need a sideboard plan to deal with the equipment. At minimum, we need Kira to protect our field from recurring removal from equipment. At best, we want to stop the equipment so there is no lifegain/card drawing shenanigans. If we can deal with the equipment, I think we are at an advantage tbh.

I think that even with your SB against elves, it is just all-around terrible. Really, really terrible.

---

Also, I think Merfolk should remain an aggro-tempo deck.. Merfolk becomes the aggressor in Modern because it can afford to play more 3/4cc cards in a format where a T4 combo is a fast clock. Considering most combo decks aim to go off at T2-3, we can't make Merfolk fast enough to compete and it'd just lose. Counter magic helps us keep it going into the T4-5 territory, which is when we can win. Being tempo lets us compete with blade midrange too.

[f7eleven]

I went 0-2 drop in a 50-man tourney today. Played one of the 3 elves players round 1 which stinks. I don't think if I played that matchup 100 games I'd win even 5 games. I'm still fine just dodging that 6% of the meta though. Don't waste your time trying to improve this matchup.

Lost in the second round to TES. Took game one. Kept a hand with Daze, 2 Cursecatchers, Islands, Wasteland, Lord in game two - and lost before taking a turn. Game three I put up a good fight but lost to a Xantid Swarm I couldn't Daze or Pierce.. I even left in a Dismember for the insect.. oh well.

Also - Standstills are bad. Was trying out a couple in the main but that didn't last long. Replaced them with a 3rd Reejerey and 13th Island (23rd land). Ran the same board that I last posted.

I like the D&T matchup and feel favored against them.

[comix84]

First of all, thanks all for replying :)

IMHO, having two different kind of philosophies means having different results against different matchup.

I usually play more tempo and I have never had great problem agains sneak and show, Omnitell, reanimator and pretty much all the delver decks.
D&T is difficult but not impossible. Elves & Goblin are much more complicated.

Tomorrow I will have my local tournament and I have changed my mind, I will go with a more aggro list.
I want to try it before the GP in Paris. I will let you know.

Later I will post my stable list and the different one that I will try tomorrow :)

Someone asked about the Cursed Totem, if you have it in your open hand is very good. :) I tried it and it is a good solution against Elves


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[Dice_Box]

Cursed hoses Elves. It's the last card I want to see when I play. The issue is that it's just not that good against other decks. I would rather run Chalice that Cursed just because Chalice has more match that it holds value.

[comix84]

Cursed hoses Elves. It's the last card I want to see when I play. The issue is that it's just not that good against other decks. I would rather run Chalice that Cursed just because Chalice has more match that it holds value.

I would run one and one.
If you play against elves you put both them in. If you draw the Totem you are very happy, if you draw the Chalice you are still happy. :)
And you can still use the Chalice against other decks.

Ps Can I post a video from youtube? just because there is a nice match Merfolk vs Elves, couple of weeks ago, SCG Invitational. :)

[Windmill]

I would run one and one.
If you play against elves you put both them in. If you draw the Totem you are very happy, if you draw the Chalice you are still happy. :)
And you can still use the Chalice against other decks.

Ps Can I post a video from youtube? just because there is a nice match Merfolk vs Elves, couple of weeks ago, SCG Invitational. :)

Of course you can post a video, it'd be great to see it

I think that if we're just as happy to see chalice vs. elves as we are to see cursed totem, then we should put 2 chalices in our SB, because it will hose elves just as good and will hit other decks too. The only other deck we'd want totem for is D&D. I'd be interested to see a Merfolk vs. D&D if you know of any too.

[comix84]

Of course you can post a video, it'd be great to see it

I think that if we're just as happy to see chalice vs. elves as we are to see cursed totem, then we should put 2 chalices in our SB, because it will hose elves just as good and will hit other decks too. The only other deck we'd want totem for is D&D. I'd be interested to see a Merfolk vs. D&D if you know of any too.

Here we go :) SCG Invitational Las Vegas. Elves vs Merfolk... :) ... Merfolk won 2 - 1 ... ^^