Originally Posted by hugh4893
I'm not the sort to tell people where they should post, but at the same time I feel compelled to point out that this isn't really a Pox deck as it doesn't contain the cards that define the Pox archetype. What you have created is a straightforward discard deck. I think it is okay, but I think there is definitely room for improvement, for instance:
- Cabal Therapy is a great card, however your deck doesn't make the most of it because you lack sac outlets to flash it back. Maybe you could replace it with Inquisition of Kozilek (or possibly add a playset of Gitaxian Probe to improve it).
- I'm not keen on Unmask as you're 'two-for-one-ing' yourself, even though it's free. Personally, I'd rather add a playset of Dark Ritual as it opens up the possibility of some degenerate turn 1 plays (e.g. Swamp, Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize/Inquisition, Hymn) that don't result in card disadvantage for you.
- Note that you may no longer need the Night's Whispers to refuel your hand if you lose the Unmasks!
- I'm also not particularly keen on Wrench Mind as you're giving your opponent the choice what to discard, so you may get an artifact you don't care about (e.g. a Sensei's Diving Top when there's already one in play), two dead cards (e.g. Stifle, which is dead against your current list) or if you were playing against me, I may happily discard my Nether Spirit!
- You could probably run Mind Twist as a one or two of (essentially as Hymns 5 and 6), which can make use of spare Dark Rituals. I'd suggest using it to empty an opponents hand after playing your other discard, as what you don't want to do is load it up with two Dark Rits on turn 1 only to get it Forced.
- 8 Rack effects is probably a bit many, so I think you can probably shave a Shrieking Affliction or two (The Rack is the better card as the damage can be redirected to Planeswalkers). My best friend plays five in his discard Pox deck and that is usually more than enough.
- I think you're a little light on board control, so maybe a couple (2-3) Toxic Deluge can be added to support the bridges. This would mean less work for Lili and also less danger for her if someone is rude enough to Ancient Grudge your Bridge!
- I'm not sure the two Smallpox add much to your current list.
- I wouldn't bother with fetches in this list, unless you're running Tops and need the shuffles. If you do decide to run Tops, then I'd suggest two Tops and six fetches. However, you may find that they slow your deck down because you're using your mana to top instead of doing something more proactive! They are good, but tend to work best in control decks for this reason.
- 19 lands looks correct to me.
- Given that you're not using your graveyard, Planar Void is better for you than Leyline. Most of your board choices look reasonable, though I think you should fit another E Plague in there (possibly two) and I'd dump the Perishes: Toxic Deluge is far more versatile.
I hope you find my feedback constructive and good luck at the tournament! :)
Last edited by S_Jake; 01-02-2014 at 02:16 PM. Reason: Forgot to add something
Thank you for the updated primer, it's really informative. :) Incidentally, I came across your feature match when you placed with High Tide at the SCG event last year and I wanted to congratulate you on your result and for playing so well. :)
I also have a general question for people playing Loam Pox: I'm in the process of creating my own list (based on the standard Mono B shell, but replacing 4 x Dark Rit with 4 x Mox Diamond and Innocent Blood with 3 x Abrupt Decay and 2 x Maelstrom Pulse). I see lists here using Entomb to find targets, but what about Crop Rotation? I appreciate that Entomb has the advantage of finding any card, but I'm wary of unnecessarily opening the deck up to graveyard hate. Crop Rotation is also potentially an instant response to Wasteland or way to instantly find that Bojuka Bog when Reanimator wants to Exhume a fatty (or a Tabernacle in response to a threat vialed in during your end step, etc). What do you think? Does it potentially warrant consideration/inclusion (yeah, long question, I know)?
The only other card that does something on draw is Uba Mask. It won't stop a combo deck since they'll just cast everything, but if you're a discard oriented Pox, they'll never have a hand on your turn, EVER...
The surest way to stop counterspell decks, and Uba can't Abruptly Decay.
You make a good argument for its inclusion. I like Entomb because I sometimes need to Entomb my Nether Spirit in an emergency or if I have everything else online with Loam (Wasteland, Cabal Pit) . The question, as always, is just to find the single slot for it and see how it goes.
Yes, that is always the problem! I also agree with you about the extra utility of Entomb and I'm also considering running one of those to help find Spirit or Loam.
I noticed your Chalice list on the other page (it looks really sweet :) ) and I wondered about Sylvan Library: Do you often draw the extra cards off it? If so, is this purely supported by Syphon Life? I'm considering some form of card selection/draw as a two-of: Either Library, Mirri's Guile and SDT, each of which have their merits.
They all do have their merits. SDT is good in mono-black, though Pox players are pretty divided on if card filtering is useful for a precious slot or two. Top is also better with Pernicious Deed, since you can top deck it though I find not being able to use Mox Diamonds with it fairly prohibitive. Guile is easier to cast than Library, but Library is more powerful. I do often take the 8 damage to draw two more cards, especially if it allows you to make a backbreaking play or multiple spells in a turn that your opponent cannot recover from. With Loam and/or fetchlands the card selection permanents can act like Brainstorm does for blue, softening the blow if you dont have Chains yourself. To me, seeing 4-6 cards over the course of a couple of turns allows me to find an answer to a problem rather than taking those two slots and guessing which extra type of disruption to put in the deck. Maybe run two maindeck Pulse if you dont run Library.
Ntropy has taken the Chalice idea and ran with it to some success. And it has its pluses and minuses when I have used it. The minor point with Chalice is that it affects furure play not what is in play at the moment, and Pox needs to be disruptive on the current board and hand to be effective, and too many spots to lock down future play (Loam, Chalice, Void, Library) can make it to where you never disrupt enough at first to get in that position, or you remain a turn slow. If I dont play a Chalice or a Library right off the bat on the play with Mox acceleration if the opponent doesnt have a land or creature out yet and I dont have a Hymn in opening draw, the Chalice or Library get played after I have disrupted all I can, then play it like a lock afterward. So when not using Chalice, targeted discard helps here. How you feel about speed and targeted discard vs the kind of lock on fast decks Chalice can provide will help you decide which style to play.
I did experiment in testing last night replacing a Cursed Scroll with a Crop Rotation and the results were not bad. Cursed Scroll can be a headache with Loam because you have to keep an eye on how many cards you Loam back in order to keep Scroll active. On the other hand Scroll is great in providing a needed alternative when Loam is hated out or not active, or you are not able to keep a green out, and it is still good to have ability to grind it out the old fashioned mono black way when necessary. In the long term will I keep a Crop Rotation in over it? I dont know. We'll see. I did like being able to reduce to one Cabal Pit and add a Maze of Ith. About 75 percent of time Crop Rotation seemed useful. Other times it was underwhelming. But thats not so different than Entomb. Sometimes it was the 5th Wasteland. Othertimes it was a Maze tutor (and tutoring ability is very very powerful in Legacy) or a Cabal Pit tutor for Loam Cabal pit weenie lock. It is true that Crop Roation is somewhat less grave oriented, which is a real concern, but not by all that much and it is still much better with Loam anyway. But like Syphon Life, Worm Harvest, Ravens Crime, they are not as impressive and are mediocre for Legacy without it, which is why being able to punish people for not being able to deal with Loam, while still being able to win without it is key. I was able to Crop Rotate a land into a Mishras Factory for a wincon with Lilly holding the board. Scroll may have been better there, but it certainly had some utility. When Crop Rotation wasnt good was the few times that I had a Mox and two lands I needed out and no Loam active and couldnt spare the colored mana to get a Factory, Maze, Pit or Wasteland. That seemed to be a minority of the time.
First off, thanks for the reply, I like giving and reciving feedback as it opens my eyes to how things might not work or will work.
Cabal/Unmask
Cabal is really a turn 1/2 play more than anything, (turn 1 alongside Unmask) and its main use is to hit multiples of the same card. Unmask, and thoughtseize are used to view their hand ahead of time, and seeing how it's a 2-of, and unmask and thoughtseize are 6, i see their hand way more often than I would have the cabal for it to be innefficient. I understand there are no sac effects, but it's in mainly to hit things I know will hurt me once i get a feel for what deck i am playing against. I used to run IoK instead of cabal, but I find Cabal is more useful, IoK's mana limit is very very hurtful when playing against a lot of decks. The 2 unmasks and 2 Cabals were a recent addition to the deck to make my turn 1 plays more efficient. Unmask doesn't hurt me too much considering I have 22 cards that discard in the deck, so losing one to take their next play isn't too bad of a trade.
Night's whisper/ Unmask:
Night's whisper isn't really effected by unmask, as unmask is only a 2 of and primarily kept as an early turn play where my hand is more full.
Night's whisper is used for a variety of reasons.
1. Being a pure discard deck, you have to fight the opponent being able to draw every turn, so almost always you want more discard available in your hand.
2. The other side of this deck is Liliana of the veil and Ensnaring bridge. It allows me to get to them and anything else I might need, like an innocent blood.
Wrench Mind:
There are some benefits to non-targetted discard, as I have done extensive testing. The benefits of which are that NO targetted discard can hit lands from a persons hand. So what are people more often than not going to choose to keep in their hand? More often than not they choose to keep the card they wish to play their next turn, and then ditch their land, most of the time, mana locks them for me. I don't know if you've ever played brainstorm in a deck, but choosing which cards to get rid of is an extremely hard decision. Wrench mind makes them make mistakes for me.
Dark Rituals:
I've tried many a list that run dark rits, and they are great early game, but serve no purpose top deck when I need anything but mana production. There is not one card in this deck that isn't useful top deck, I like the consistency its at. Also, as a control deck, this deck makes the game go on longer, as such I am more likely to go into top deck mode and hit a dark rit. It has lost me games. That's why I took it out.
Mind Twist:
Mind twist is bad. you have to spend twice as much mana as a hymn or wrench mind to take one more of card from them than either of them take, and you could just cast 2 wrench minds, 2 hymns or 1 wrench mind and 1 hymn for that same mana cost, and it would take 1 more cards than Mind Twist would take with the same amount of mana. It's not good. Wrench mind is better.
8 Racks:
As I am running a creatureless list and these are my only win conditions, and you gave me no suggestion as to what else I should add in their place, I think it's obsurd to drop below 8 win conditions.
Toxic Deluge:
I like this suggestion, but it needs testing, I am already inflicting quite a bit of pain on myself and I think smallpox fills this roll as the amount of discard I have kinda stops them from playing many creatures to begin with. I think if anything Deluge might replace Perish in the sideboard.
I actually plan on putting up the fetches to around 8, dropping the night's whispers, and adding 3 tops and maybe an ensnaring bridge, but that's just a future plan that is dependant on money i do not have.
I suggest you playtest a few hands of this deck, It seems like you attemped some off-hand suggestions, which I appreciate nontheless, but I think you would see its consistency more in the list I produced than the changes that you made.
Thanks for the good luck!
Oddly enough, I wouldn't bother with SDT in mono B, but it seems quite nice in B/G (if a little durdly, but then this is always the case with Top). It has a really nice synergy with Loam where I can look before my draw step and choose whether to draw one of the top three cards or dredge lands/useless cards. I can also tap Top to draw a card, dredge 3 instead, and put Top back on the library (which can help Loam evade extractions, etc). I was always happy to see it, though it should be noted that I was playing against a similarly grindy deck (my friend's mono-B discard Pox). That said, it isn't a play I would look to make turn 1 (Land, IoK or Land, Mox, Hymn/Smallpox/Sinkhole is definitely where I'm looking to be).
I'll definitely try out the Library after playing a little more with my current list (ideally against something that provides more early pressure), but I think I'll need to reconfigure it in order to support Library (I'll probably try making room Syphon Life or possibly splash W for Nomad Stadium).
I actually didn't bother with Scroll as I was concerned about the conflict it would have with Loam (note that I'd also had the benefit of seeing one of Ali Aintrazi's matches when he placed with his Loam Pox list and it was clearly a problem for him). I figured Cabal Pit could do a similar job, except it obviously can't win the game (which is obviously an important consideration in itself).
The trouble I'm having is that that I can't think of many viable win conditions: The Rack can be played around (though it can be powerful with an active Lili to lock it in) and Tombstalker/Phyrexian Obliterator need a Volrath's Stronghold and either Bitterblossom, Bloodghast or Lingering Souls to support it (and I'm concerned that this may be too clunky and too susceptible to a top-decked StP, plus the x/1 creatures can be subjected to any anti-TNN hate). The cmc for Worm Harvest seems awkward to me (and again produces x/1s), the Dark Depths combo seems to be too random and clumsy here and Haunted Plate Mail seems worse than Nantuko Monastery. Any suggestions on this front would be greatly appreciated!
I'd like to make room for 1-2 Crop Rotation, as the one-of Tabernacle and Cabal Pit were too random and couldn't be supported by my single Entomb (given that it's primary purpose was to get Loam/Nether Spirit online). Of course, the question is what to cut.
By the way, I came across a card called Nostalgic Dreams the other day. Do you think this has potential with Loam, or is it a bit too slow/cute (or possibly doesn't do enough without Loam)?
For reference, this is what I currently have sleeved up:
LANDS (26):
2 Swamp,
1 Forest,
3 Bayou,
4 Verdant Catacombs,
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth,
4 Wasteland,
4 Mishra's Factory,
2 Barren Moor,
1 Cabal Pit,
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale,
1 Bojuka Bog.
ARTIFACTS (6):
4 Mox Diamond,
2 Sensei's Divining Top.
CREATURES (1):
1 Nether Spirit.
INSTANTS & SORCERIES (23):
3 Inquisition of Kozilek,
1 Raven's Crime,
3 Abrupt Decay,
4 Hymn to Tourach,
4 Sinkhole,
4 Smallpox,
1 Maelstrom Pulse,
1 Entomb,
2 Life from the Loam.
PLANESWALKERS (4):
4 Liliana of the Veil.
SIDEBOARD:
To be developed, though it seems likely I'll be trying something along the lines of 2 Needles, 2 Toxic Deluge (one of these might replace the main deck Pulse), a second Pulse, 2 Chains of Mephistopheles, ~3 E Plague, 1 Karakas, 2 Nihil Spellbomb (with two slots TDB), though I need to give this a lot more thought (I wanted to get my 60 somewhere near first).
Last edited by S_Jake; 01-05-2014 at 11:57 AM. Reason: I can't spell.
If this is what you prefer then that's fine, but where Unmask is concerned, I think you may be forgetting that you're actually losing two cards (the pitched card and Unmask itself) to take one. One the draw, this seems especially bad as you open yourself up to both Daze and Spell Pierce, plus the opponent can Brainstorm in response and hide their best two cards.
I figured Night's Whisper was there to remedy the inherent card disadvantage caused by Unmask. If that's not the case, then fine. Have you considered Phyrexian Arena? BBB is admittedly clunky, but at least the effect is permanent instead of 'pay 2 life, +1 card advantage'.Night's whisper/ Unmask:
Night's whisper isn't really effected by unmask, as unmask is only a 2 of and primarily kept as an early turn play where my hand is more full.
Night's whisper is used for a variety of reasons.
1. Being a pure discard deck, you have to fight the opponent being able to draw every turn, so almost always you want more discard available in your hand.
2. The other side of this deck is Liliana of the veil and Ensnaring bridge. It allows me to get to them and anything else I might need, like an innocent blood.
Are you really asking me this question? Is it supposed to be rhetorical or a veiled insult? Brainstorm is the most commonly cast spell in Legacy for a reason. As far as Wrench Mind is concerned, it's only good when an opponent is down to their last two cards, otherwise they simply pitch their weakest two (or one redundant artifact). Random discard is much more powerful as it takes the simple selection of redundant cards out of the equation.Wrench Mind:
There are some benefits to non-targetted discard, as I have done extensive testing. The benefits of which are that NO targetted discard can hit lands from a persons hand. So what are people more often than not going to choose to keep in their hand? More often than not they choose to keep the card they wish to play their next turn, and then ditch their land, most of the time, mana locks them for me. I don't know if you've ever played brainstorm in a deck, but choosing which cards to get rid of is an extremely hard decision. Wrench mind makes them make mistakes for me.
Whenever I've played Pox, Discard or Gate lists, some form of acceleration has always been necessary as the decks are otherwise not fast enough in the early turns against tempo. I accept that Dark Rit is a bad top-deck, but it does open up some really degenerate turn one plays. I also don't see how this is a worse top-deck than Unmask (unless you're planning on casting the latter for 4).Dark Rituals:
I've tried many a list that run dark rits, and they are great early game, but serve no purpose top deck when I need anything but mana production. There is not one card in this deck that isn't useful top deck, I like the consistency its at. Also, as a control deck, this deck makes the game go on longer, as such I am more likely to go into top deck mode and hit a dark rit. It has lost me games. That's why I took it out.
Hymn is one of the best discard spells ever printed and I never suggested that Mind Twist should take it's place (or any of it's slots), so let's be clear on that first. However, I do not agree that it's a worse card than Wrench Mind: The discard is random and Mind Twist has a lot more flexibility. At the end of the day, what you run is up to you: I'd probably run neither, but I would run a copy (or two) of Mind Twist if I felt 4 Hymns wasn't enough.Mind Twist:
Mind twist is bad. you have to spend twice as much mana as a hymn or wrench mind to take one more of card from them than either of them take, and you could just cast 2 wrench minds, 2 hymns or 1 wrench mind and 1 hymn for that same mana cost, and it would take 1 more cards than Mind Twist would take with the same amount of mana. It's not good. Wrench mind is better.
Personally, I'd drop three Shrieking Affliction and include two Cursed Scroll. Damage from The Rack and Cursed Scroll can be redirected to Planeswalkers while the loss of life from Shrieking Affliction cannot, which is very relevant as your deck doesn't include a way to deal with them. Cursed Scroll also gives you more board control if necessary. Also consider that a resolved Jace tends to quickly make Rack effects redundant (a resolved Ancestral Visions is even worse) and Rack effects can be played around. You might also consider adding a Nether Spirit if you need another win con (it's a great wall if nothing else and it can attack if necessary).8 Racks:
As I am running a creatureless list and these are my only win conditions, and you gave me no suggestion as to what else I should add in their place, I think it's obsurd to drop below 8 win conditions.
I honestly love this card and I would include it in just about any sideboard that can support it. If you don't mind paying the two life for Thoughtseize or Night's Whisper, then I don't see any reason why you shouldn't consider paying two life to kill any number of the most relevant creatures in Legacy (DRS, TNN, Snapcaster, SFM, Confidant, Delver to name but a few). It's also possibly the best source of card advantage available to your deck. Granted, it's rubbish against combo, but then again, it's no more redundant there than Ensnaring Bridge would be against Storm. Just don't blindly run it into a counterspell.Toxic Deluge:
I like this suggestion, but it needs testing, I am already inflicting quite a bit of pain on myself and I think smallpox fills this roll as the amount of discard I have kinda stops them from playing many creatures to begin with. I think if anything Deluge might replace Perish in the sideboard.
Also don't forget that Abrupt Decay is rife in the format (Team America, Shardless and Jund run 3-4 copies maindeck) and it kills your bridges. Maelstrom Pulse can even kill multiples. If lifeloss becomes a problem, then I'd suggest replacing Thoughtseize with Inquisition, as the latter hits ~80% of non-land cards in Legacy (which is exactly the reason why Pox lists usually run IoK instead of Thoughtseize).
Fair enough, but don't forget that multiple Tops are dead draws (which is why I'd suggest trying two first) and that fetches are another source of lifeloss. I personally think the fourth Bridge would be overkill.I actually plan on putting up the fetches to around 8, dropping the night's whispers, and adding 3 tops and maybe an ensnaring bridge, but that's just a future plan that is dependant on money i do not have.
Yes they were off-hand, but I've played a lot of mono-B decks in the past (Pox, Gate and Discard) and I'm familiar with how a lot of the cards play (as I've played most of them at one time or another). Mono-B is fun, but artifacts, enchantments (and JtMS) give it fits. This is actually why I've been looking at B/W and B/G Pox: They at least have outs to a resolved Jace and various other things mono-B can't really handle!I suggest you playtest a few hands of this deck, It seems like you attemped some off-hand suggestions, which I appreciate nontheless, but I think you would see its consistency more in the list I produced than the changes that you made.
Thanks for the good luck!
I found that pure discard is difficult to build, but I have had lots of success playing the rack in a deck with diverse threat types.
Is everyone playing Bg version now over monoblack? You guys having more success with or without the Chalice builds? I'm turning back to this deck as it seems to have the most ways to completely shrug off TNN.
Here's what I'm sleeving up this week. Suggestions/comments?
//Spells: 25
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
//Other Permanents: 7
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Cursed Scroll
//Mana/Lands: 29
4 Mox Diamond
4 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
3 Swamp
1 Cabal Pit
1 Forest
1 The Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale
//Sideboard: 15
2 Extirpate
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Abyssal Persecutor
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Thoughtseize
3 Pithing Needle
Is Ensnaring Bridge worth putting in the board? I think I already have a strong plan against creatures and TNN... is more needed?
I wanted to avoid the GY route with Reanimates/Entomb/1-ofs since they are probably already going to board in GY hate against a Pox deck, esp when they see green mana and assume (or see) Loam shenanigans.
Hence "the man plan" in the SB, counting on decks to board out removal for grave hate after game 1. I figure we have enough ways to kill Persecutor that it's not a liability. Meanwhile, it tramples over Spirit tokens and other dorks (unlike Tombstalker or Desecration Demon), isn't slowed down by grave hate, and dodges a lot of removal that wouldn't get boarded out like Abrupt Decay, Punishing Fire and Lightning Bolt.
^ That looks like a pretty solid list to me. :)
One issue I'm currently having (that you may also apply to your list) is that the single Entomb tends to be used to find either the Nether Spirit or a Loam I need, so I subsequently can't find my Tabernacle/Pit/Bog when I need them (though this may be less of an issue for you given that you're running more removal than I am). I'd test out the Cursed Scrolls and see how you find them in a Loam list, as casting Loam tends to fill up your hand, though I think that in my case it may just be that I'm being too greedy and I need to adjust my style of play (as I have little experience with Loam). One question I would ask is do you think the Pit is necessary given that the Scrolls can do a similar job (assuming that you remain happy with them)? Would it be worth considering replacing it with a Bojuka Bog?
I think Percy (I can't believe I forgot about him!) is great for the reasons you mention and I think Pox lists in general could really use a clock, though this could obviously cause issues with Nether Spirit/Innocent Blood/Smallpox (and being unfortunate enough to Loam them into your 'yard). There are random instances where you may not be able to sac him out for the win (I used to play The Gate and it occasionally came up there, though admittedly not that often). Flying and trample seems really nice for assassinating Planeswalkers, though. :) Tombstalker might also be worth considering: He lacks trample and is only 5/5, but will often only be BB to cast. Outside of Dismember (which seems to be seeing limited play right now), he dodges pretty much all the removal that Percy does. I used to use Bloodghast to support Tombstalker in a more aggro-ish build I was playing around with, but relying on x/1 creatures that don't really achieve much on their own seems really weak to me right now (as any TNN hate can also be used on them). I also concede that a RiP or Leyline of the Void would screw up any realistic chance of casting Tombstalker.
Regarding Bridges, I think the only situations they handle that your list doesn't seem to have an answer to (unless I'm missing something) is a resolved Griselbrand or a Sneak Attack activation bring Emrakul into play. A Karakas might help, though this wouldn't answer a 'Draw 7' activation on Grisly.
@S_Jake:
1. we both have overlooked the fact that mind twist is banned in legacy, for that I applaud our ignorant replies to it.
2. There are a few points i agree with you since testing against affinity, elves and merfolk.
a. Cabal/unmask -
Cabal is too unpredictable, and unmask could easily be dropped without the combo that's needed with it.
i am thinking of running 2-3 IoK and 1-2 Duress overtop as is solves the same turn 1 play without having the bad problems
b. Wrench Mind
Aside from our apparent blunder on mind twist, wrench mind is a very good card, I just don't agree with your argument points.
- you say they will pitch a redundant artifact, what artifacts are redundant in legacy? also in a mono black list artifacts are hard to deal with, so i'd welcome something that i wouldn't be able to remove in the first place to be discarded.
- I just don't see how the opponent HAVING to discard 2 cards from one spell is bad? that's hymn without randomness. granted hymn is way better. but, it's the closest thing to hymn
c. Shrieking affliction vs. cursed scroll
- the problem i have with cursed scroll is that i am not stopping the opponent from drawing, or taking what they did draw from their hand, which is the control of the deck. The reason cursed scroll doesn't work well in a discard deck is that is takes 3 mana to activate its ability, which stifles your mana to cast discard spells to control their hand for at least a turn or two, making it not good with rack in play. it's not synergistic. With Shrieking affliction, I can play it one turn and know i can leave it out and stick to the strategy of fighting the mechanism of the game knowing it will do damage.
d. I understand you are speaking from experience, and I also understand the mishaps of mono black, but I think any color played to its strengths can match a deck trying to splash for a wider range of tactics with different mana bases. i am not too worried about abrupt decay, as my win conditions and lock pieces are late game plays that just reassure the game when most of the time I am already winning. IE: Burn. This deck plays a lot like burn, it sticks to one strategy and holds to the strengths of one color and finds a way around the problems other colors have by having one strong strategy that performs.
I am playing a tournament this saturday and we shall see how it performs and i'll do a report.
Thanks for the comments.
Ah, Griselbees. I knew I forgot about something. I figured I had "combo" covered with Pithing Needle and discard and Extirpate, but SneakShow could still pummel me. Might have to make room for Bridges.
Yeah, I used to play monoblack Pox with both Tombstalkers and Bloodghasts too. Made for a nice aggro build. I liked it! I'm more familiar with the monoblack builds and haven't tested as much with Bg, so definitely open to suggestions. I tend to design control decks to function when behind, so I didn't even consider that if both Loam and Scroll were online and undisrupted that they'd conflict. Oops! Will have to think about that...
I found in the past when I did play Bg Loam Pox with a stronger Loam engine and multiple Entombs, the toolbox was nice but Loam was getting hated out a lot. Then I'd find a lot of my deck would function suboptimally without the GY engine. That was in an older format. With maindeck DRS, Scooze and RiP everywhere, I just assumed Loam engines would get hated out even more, especially post-board, so I'm wary to rely on them. My main reason for playing Bg is actually Abrupt Decay (and Pulse/Deed/Grip), less so Loam. My list doesn't really abuse Loam like yours with all the cycling and utility lands and such. Loam's purpose here is much like its role in some recent tempo decks, just recurring some fetchlands and Wastelands and other lost lands here and there. I won't be dredging it every turn like in a true Loam deck, just using it at key times to offset all the lands this deck already chucks in the GY. There's the possibility of Wastelock or Cabal Pit looping, but it's not necessary. So then maybe it won't interfere with scroll. I'll have to test more.
For those that are running BG with the land toolbox and Loams, has anyone tried running a 1-of Grim Backwoods? Mana-intensive, but late-game it could be a great way to dump Nether Spirits and Bloodghasts for more gas or more dredges. Pox inevitably ends up in topdeck mode; anything to get gas from there seems good.
I opted out of Nether Spirit (the singleton without Entomb seemed too inconsistent, esp. for a slow clock) so Percy doesn't have any conflict there. I won't be Loaming often so unlikely dredge him. Slight difference in playstyle and deck build might actually make him work better in my list than in many others. Tombstalker certainly is an amazing creature. What I'm worried is that opponent will RiP or DRS or Relic away my GY and I'll end up having to pay 4-6 mana for Tombstalker. I've had that happen before, particularly post-board, so I was trying to make my "man plan" not GY dependent. Also, Tombstalker dies to Dismember as you said and gets chumped by Esperblade all day. Do you guys ever find that an issue or does Tombstalker get the job done for you? Percy always connects (who plays flyers with 6+ toughness in this format??). I find it can also trick bad players into not removing him right away, thinking they can just kill me first before I can remove him, which may give me a window to discard their kill spell or deal with the board position and have it bite them in the arse. A good player would probably StP it right away, but you never know. Maybe I just need more ways to dispose of him as you pointed out.
Do you guys find Engineered Plague helps a lot with the Tribal matches, or does Merfolk just have too many lords? Is Toxic Deluge usually better?
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@hugh: looking forward to hearing your report about the monoblack build. Have you thought about running Big Pox? It really helps keep their hand empty. Just knowing you run it makes them reluctant to keep more than 3 cards in hand. I've always run Big Pox in Rack builds. Running Big Pox means you don't have to devote so many individual spells to slowly keeping their hand count low. It just happens, and it also seriously cuts down the clock of Rack and Affliction. Dropping 2 Rack effects and then casting Big Pox puts them on a serious clock (down to 1-2 cards and at 13 life, starting to take rack damage every turn) .
I'm surprised you're running Cabal and Unmask before IoK and Duress... Wrench Mind is OK, but I feel like you would want tools that do things other than discard, for card quality and all. Funeral Charm is another discard spell that can also do things like kill unflipped Delvers and Bobs. The "instant" part is also not negligible. Smallpox only takes 1 card out of hand, but takes out more things overall. That effectively shrinks their hand size (since they need to then play more lands and more creatures to not fall behind), so +2 Smallpox will probably help you more than 4 Wrench Mind.
I would never play Shrieking Affliction, but if I did, here's how I would play it in monoblack:
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Innocent Blood
2 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
2 Wrench Mind
4 Pox
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 The Rack
2 Shrieking Affliction
2 Nether Spirit
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
13 Swamp
(Basically, my usual monoblack list but +6 "rack effect" +2 Nether Spirit -4 Bloodghast - 2 Tombstalker +4 discard spells - 4 Sinkhole - 2 SDT)
Sorry for the double post, but Jesus Christ, has anyone seen the spoiler for "Waste Not" in M15???
Auto+4 in Pox. Immediately.
Just, wow. Every successful Duress now cantrips. It rewards Pox for doing what it wants to do by both digging you into gas and doubling as a win condition. Just, wow. It also makes all other double-discards (Wrench Mind, Gerrard's Verdict) so much better. It actually really favors the monoblack Pox discard build with racks.
For reference, here is the card:
http://media.wizards.com/images/magi...d_wastenot.jpg
This card seems to work really well with a full discard package, especially with Liliana and Hymn. Card draw is something that Pox has always been lacking when in topdeck mode and the creature ability just provides more threats for us, which is definitely helpful in closing out games. The ability is the least spectacular, but is still useful in quite a number of situations, especially if you are not running crucible or loam.{1}{B}
Enchantment
Whenever an opponent discards a creature card, put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield.
Whenever an opponent discards a land card, add {B}{B} to your mana pool.
Whenever an opponent discards a noncreature, nonland card, draw a card.
Really like it! Maybe this summer i can put my discard pox deck back into the sleeves and bring all the doom against my opponents
TEAM MtG Berlin
First off, I took out the cabals and the unmask, They are being replaced by either 2-3 IoK or 1-2 funeral charm, and I am going to +1 ensnaring bridge.
I've tried running those cards and have play tested with them a lot trying to make my list the way it is. I understand your suggestions are very powerful and useful cards, and I tried making them work, but they all have their problems in a discard pox deck.
Wasteland/Mishra's doesnt work well in a pure discard list and it doesn't work in a rack list for a multitude of reasons:
1. Too many colorless mana is bad:
In pure discard you have to fight the mechanism built into the game, with that you have to be able to discard at least one card a turn to keep the racks doing damage. when you have 8 colorless land you never get to cast the discard you want. (I have tried, with urborg's and dar rituals and every other thing that could be used, trust me, it doesn't work. )
2. Wasteland will eat their mana base, keeping them from being able to cast anything, and when they can't cast anything it stays in their hand, where my win conditions don't do damage. I understand them not being able to cast anything is a positive, but it is not synergistic with the deck at all. Also, there are very few single cards that can't be dealt with in legacy that an ensnaring bridge doesn't answer, and the ones that don't get answered usually are comboing with something else. (Elves and Affinity are had matchups because of that, but 8 of my sideboard cards come in against them.)
I have tied to a great extent to make wasteland win the game, but what it did was lock them out for a few turns and stifle my win conditions. I feel like it could work with waste not, but until then, I don't think so.
3. Mishra's Factory:
The problem I have run into with mishra's is the same problem I have with cursed scroll, the fact you have to use mana for the ability to use damage, when you use mana to do damage, then you are taking your mana from your discard spells to upkeep your control. Also, alongside wasteland, urborg, tomb of yawgmoth is a necessity, and it's not a good necessity. you can hit one, and then top deck another and only be able to cast something for it in one turn, and then be behind in your mana production by a turn, and when that happens just once when you are trying to upkeep a discard strategy you are screwed. Or, you have a mishra's out and the urborg isn't out, dorking you from being able to discard again.
4. Big pox and smallpox.
They are really good, but not with my win conditions. all the problems i have with mana locking myself are exponentiated with pox and smallpox. in fact, the only way i think a traditional pox list can perfom is with nether void, the abyss and chains of mestophicles because of the non-synergistic relationship with the land destruction of yourself and the fact you dont consistently have black mana from the wastelands and mishra's. i think that's why crucible and loam lists have been outperforming it a lot.
I just tried to make the deck consistent with one strategy as possible while having accross the board answers to a lot of problems in my sideboard.
Also, Waste not is a beast, it's definitely going in my deck as soon as it's printed and it will make it perform that much more consistently.
Last edited by hugh4893; 01-06-2014 at 11:52 AM. Reason: forgot big pox
Aah yes! Waste Not, finally :) I was planning on building a MB 8-Pox with Rack-effect deck... This card will be a cornerstone! I agree with hugh4893 concerning Mishra's Factory, but think I would up the creatures. Probably 2-3 Tombstalkers, along with some other goodies (perhaps a good old Spirit). I was experimenting with a Bg-build, but it wasn't what I was looking for (again)... Perhaps this will be what Pox needs :)
Keep it going, fellow Poxbringers!
I hadn't really thought about Top as much for the replacing the draw with dredge to protect Loam. I find the Barren Moor thing to be a little slow and unreliable, but maybe I just need a better example of it. The problem with Top on top, as it were, is if you do need to Loam next turn as well you risk Loaming the Top.
I find a win condition eventually presents itself usually, but if you want it faster, you could risk locking out your own Spirit with a Stalker, or go Depths combo, which you mentioned that like me you find it a bit clunky, but hey a guy just won SCG Indy with it in a Pox-y type deck that also utilized Punishing Fire.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=62390
I have tested most of these. Someone mentioned Roar of the Wurm, which I hadn't heard of, but I might give it a shot in some testing as it seems to have a bit of potential for speeding up a kill and plays well with Loam, but still works without it.
The SCG winning deck did vindicate the use of Crop Rotation to good effect. I watched some of the matches and I would have preferred some Abrupt Decay and discard over Punishing Fire, but hey, I didn't win the SCG either.
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