[Primer] Elves!

[LeoCop 90]

Steel sabotage is pretty cool if we're going to run blue for swan song lol

How often do you guys gsz for dryad arbor on turn 1? I pretty much always do that if I don't have any mana producing elves turn 1. I feel that first turn acceleration is always our best opening game 1, so I don't mind "wasting" a gsz to accomplish that. Is that the consensus around here or am I incorrect at doing this?

I always gsz for arbor turn 1 unless :

- i have a llanowar in hand

- i have symbiote or visionary and i think it woud be good to tutor for the other combo piece

- i have an hand capable of producing tons of mana but without natural order/behemoth. In this case i usually hold the zenith to tutor for behemoth if needed.

- i have a one-of in my deck wich is devastating for the deck i'm playing against ( viridian shaman vs affinity, teeg vs combo... )

Well, i realize this are a lot of cases, so i just think zenith must be used cautiously.

[Kayradis]

Zenith is not always mandatory.
Yes, its a recyclabe tutor, but I believe DRS T1 can give you WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more value in any scenario.

[matty]

Zenith is not always mandatory.
Yes, its a recyclabe tutor, but I believe DRS T1 can give you WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more value in any scenario.

I agree, and if I had a Deathrite Shaman in my opening hand I would never Zenith for Arbor turn 1. What I don't like doing is leading with a Quirion Ranger or Symbiote. I think Quirion Ranger is a much stronger turn 2 play if you Zenith for Arbor on turn 1 and have some other elves to deploy.

[Kayradis]

+1
That's a statement I can get behind.
GSZ for Arbor on T1 followed by Quirion T2 is something I cant get enough.

[nudon]

I always gsz for arbor turn 1 unless :

- i have a llanowar in hand

- i have symbiote or visionary and i think it woud be good to tutor for the other combo piece

- i have an hand capable of producing tons of mana but without natural order/behemoth. In this case i usually hold the zenith to tutor for behemoth if needed.

- i have a one-of in my deck wich is devastating for the deck i'm playing against ( viridian shaman vs affinity, teeg vs combo... )

Well, i realize this are a lot of cases, so i just think zenith must be used cautiously.

Keeping in mind the OP was posed for game 1s:
1. I believe the assumption was that neither llanowar nor DRS are in your opening hand.
2. Usually a great idea but without heritage druid + cradle, this can only be assembled as early as turn 3. This gives your opponent time to find disruption.
4. Good idea like #2 but requires 3 turns without heritage druid/birchlore + cradle. At that point, it's probably too late.

[matty]

^Yes, I was referring to pre sideboard games. I'm probably only going to hold a Zenith for a silver bullet post board when I have the right ones loaded in there.

Turn 1 thoughtseize post board, though, is not something I'm against. Especially against storm:
T1 thoughtseize
T2 mana dude with swan song mana up
T3 NO for ruric
In an ideal world of course.


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[LeoCop 90]

Keeping in mind the OP was posed for game 1s:
1. I believe the assumption was that neither llanowar nor DRS are in your opening hand.
2. Usually a great idea but without heritage druid + cradle, this can only be assembled as early as turn 3. This gives your opponent time to find disruption.
4. Good idea like #2 but requires 3 turns without heritage druid/birchlore + cradle. At that point, it's probably too late.

1- yes, i meant llanowar or deathrite

2 and 4 : well , sometimes i think we are just forced to play a slower game. When we have those hands full of heritages, symbiotes, nettle sentinels, quirion rangers and elvish visionaries, if we hold a zenith i think it is wrong to go for turn 1 arbor because after all we are accelerating into nothing, just hoping to topdeck something good. I believe it is just better to hold that zenith to find what we need even if we might be too slow, rather than dropping our entire hand as soon as possible and then pray to topdeck.

[matty]

But if you zenith for arbor in that case on turn 1 you can go quirion ranger tap arbor return a forest, untap the arbor and then play symbiote and visionary and start drawing an extra card every turn.

EDIT: and then also have enough mana and creatures the next turn to Natural order for hoof and win if you happen to draw it.

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[nudon]

1- yes, i meant llanowar or deathrite

2 and 4 : well , sometimes i think we are just forced to play a slower game. When we have those hands full of heritages, symbiotes, nettle sentinels, quirion rangers and elvish visionaries, if we hold a zenith i think it is wrong to go for turn 1 arbor because after all we are accelerating into nothing, just hoping to topdeck something good. I believe it is just better to hold that zenith to find what we need even if we might be too slow, rather than dropping our entire hand as soon as possible and then pray to topdeck.

Hands without glimpse/NO/visionary+symbiote/multiple gsz's/hoof fall under your 3rd point, which I didn't disagree with. However, my personal opinion is that if you have business in your opener, the turn 1 acceleration is critical. It allows for some gross turn 2s if your opponent can't disrupt you. I even like accelerating with visionary hands since you will have seen 2-3 (play/draw) cards following a visionary on your turn 2. This gives several chances to draw into gsz/wirewood symbiote/cradle/etc. Though secondary, accelerating t1 also doesn't give your opponent information about your relatively weak hand.

[matty]

Has anyone tested leyline of sanctity in the sideboard? Wouldn't that shut storm down pretty hard? Wouldn't it even be good against true name nemesis or doesn't it work like that?

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[Lemnear]

Has anyone tested leyline of sanctity in the sideboard? Wouldn't that shut storm down pretty hard? Wouldn't it even be good against true name nemesis or doesn't it work like that?

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It does not shut down storm. You can hope that they don't expect it game 2 and don't overrun you with turn 1 goblins, but for game 3 the is Chain of Vapor

[matty]

It does not shut down storm. You can hope that they don't expect it game 2 and don't overrun you with turn 1 goblins, but for game 3 the is Chain of Vapor

Ah OK. You make good points.

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[Julian23]

Don't call me an arrogant elitist please, but this is not Salvation. We expect people to know basic rules and over the last time, we've had a lot of people come in to this thread, which is a very good thing. But as Lemnear has said before, we can't go over very basic aspects of the game, which includes rules. LoS does not work against TNN. On top of that, TNN isn't even one of our major concerns and even if it DID, you would be ill-advised to bring it in against any deck running TNN.

LoS is interesting on a tactical level as it stalls out quite a bit IF you get it. In a deck that definitely has sometimes issues with mulligans because of initial mana sources, I would definitely not want to play it as it leads to very awkward hands. On a strategical level, it's rather bad though. Both ANT and TES already bring in Bouncespells to at least have a shot at handling Ruric Thar (and Thorns, if you have them) so it doesn't really add a new layer to the deck. It can be ok in combination with reactive cards like Mindbreak Trap and Swan Song but here's the dealbraker: opportunity costs dictates that you very likely won't have both Discard, Reactive Cards AND LoS in your sideboard.

Thanks for contributing though, just make sure to always try to go deep with suggestions etc. LoS is for sure not the absolute worst, but without trying to see the whole picture, which includes strategical analysis and accounting for opportunity costs, suggesting cards is kinda pointless as most cards are "good" in a certain way. But I really love your avatar, man!

[matty]

A

Don't call me an arrogant elitist please, but this is not Salvation. We expect people to know basic rules and over the last time, we've had a lot of people come in to this thread, which is a very good thing. But as Lemnear has said before, we can't go over very basic aspects of the game, which includes rules. LoS does not work against TNN.

LoS is interesting on a tactical level as it stalls out quite a bit IF you get it. In a deck that definitely has sometimes issues with mulligans because of initial mana sources, I would definitely not want to play it as it leads to very awkward hands. On a strategical level, it's rather bad though. Both ANT and TES already bring in Bouncespells to at least have a shot at handling Ruric Thar (and Thorns, if you have them) so it doesn't really add a new layer to the deck. It can be ok in combination with reactive cards like Mindbreak Trap and Swan Song but here's the dealbraker: opportunity costs dictates that you very likely won't have both Discard, Reactive Cards AND LoS in your sideboard.

I apologize. I am still rather new to the game and not to be a kiss ass but your performance in the bazaar of moxen is what led me to choose playing this archetype over any other. I will refrain from posting rules related questions here and just continue to read and learn from you guys. I appreciate that you have put as much information on this thread as you have and that goes for all of the contributors not just Julian.

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[fluuu]

julien which is ur actually deck list? Thank you man and continue doing great things!

[Zombie]

I just remembered that this card exists. Now I want to use it as a troll slot in the board someday. Or maybe main, so I can side it out. They'll never see it coming XD

[Goosen]

Zenith is not always mandatory.
Yes, its a recyclabe tutor, but I believe DRS T1 can give you WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more value in any scenario.

Agree that DRS is in most cases the right play over GSZ for 0. But there are some scenario when GSZ is better.

Here are three scenario that come in mind.

1. You are holding a Glimpse and need the creature spell.
2. Wanna bait a removal so your DRS have a better chance to survivel. This is in match up where it is very important.
3. Your starting hand dont have any fetch or there will not be enough lands in graveyard when you wanna untap it and get more mana.

[Dice_Box]

Other is if your facing blade and you have Quirion Ranger in your hand. You get the mana base down, and you get a defence for Jitte online as fast as you can. But this is a very defence play, while Ranger and Dryad can push out mana fast, playing not to lose is not the same as playing to win. Sometimes that is the most important thought when keeping your opening hand.

[venice]

Hey guys! I won a GPT yesterday, earning myself 2 sweet Byes for Paris!

Match Ups were:

R1: UWR Delver 1-2 Loss
R2: Esperblade 2-1 Win
R3: Death & Taxes 2-0 Win
R4: Sneak Show 2-0 Win
R5: Punishing Fit 1-1-1 Draw
R6: Death & Taxes 2-1 Win

Top 8: Only me and one other guy want to play for the Byes so we proceed directly to the finals.

Finals: UWr Miracles 2-1 Win

My Decklist this time was:

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Heritage Druid
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Nettle Sentinel
2 Birchlore Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
2 Crop Rotation
3 Gaea's Cradle
3 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Forest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Dryad Arbor

SB:
3 Thoughtseize
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Progenitus
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pithing Needle
3 Swan Song
1 Karakas

See you in Paris!

[yaWgnorW]

Hey guys! I won a GPT yesterday, earning myself 2 sweet Byes for Paris!

Match Ups were:

R1: UWR Delver 1-2 Loss
R2: Esperblade 2-1 Win
R3: Death & Taxes 2-0 Win
R4: Sneak Show 2-0 Win
R5: Punishing Fit 1-1-1 Draw
R6: Death & Taxes 2-1 Win

Top 8: Only me and one other guy want to play for the Byes so we proceed directly to the finals.

Finals: UWr Miracles 2-1 Win

My Decklist this time was:

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Heritage Druid
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Nettle Sentinel
2 Birchlore Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
2 Crop Rotation
3 Gaea's Cradle
3 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Forest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Dryad Arbor

SB:
3 Thoughtseize
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Progenitus
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pithing Needle
3 Swan Song
1 Karakas

See you in Paris!

Congrats. Couple difficult MU's for sure. I'd like to ask you about some of the choices, how do you feel 3 Needle worked for you? I've tried it and it felt a little bit to much, so I dropped it to do 2. Also, how are the old Crop Rotations working? It was my favorite interaction in the deck before moving to 4 Cradle.