I've played several different iterations of Miracles over the last year, starting with a 3x Clique, 1x Blood Moon version. I certainly can recognize the power of Clique, but my personal preference has been to move them entirely to the side. I like having the option of playing a completely creatureless game (outside of Entreat) and it allows me to play a very anti-creature gameplan.Originally Posted by Adryan
I wouldn't agree with RIP versions being inferior to non-RIP versions. While it is partially a local meta choice, Rest in Peace has done a ton of work against a large amount of popular decks (hosing any graveyard value creature and many combo lines). In addition, as YamiJoey said, having access to free wins and an additional pseudo-Moat is huge. I find 2 RIP in the main with 1 Tutor to be a solid amount and it keeps me from flooding with them in the matchups where they are only relevant with Energy Field or Helm.
Moat does a ton of work and the stability of a U/W manabase is awesome. No creatures in the main (aside from Entreat) allows me to use Humility against creature strategies which generally can't deal with it (normally only Abrupt Decay or creature-based removal for enchantments) and just blow them out.
I don't think I'm playing a completely optimal version, but I've been very happy with my results.
I definitely respect your opinion on the matter. The problem with RiP is that it's a dead card in some Match-ups, i.e. Sneak and Show, Death and Taxes...etc., having Drawing a 2nd RiP is Not desirable. The other problem with RiP Helm is that Helm alone is a almost dead card. If you're facing creatures beat down, that helm you drew could be an Entreat to save yourself, given the other combo piece is not in play. Also, I find EF to be rarely useful. If I draw a Tutor with RiP in play, I almost always tutor for Helm, not EF, why wait when I can tutor for the win now?
There was one game in which I have RiP in play and Tutor in hand. I tried to EoT Clique opponent and he FoW. That's when I know I've won the game, I then Tutor, as suspected, he ran out of counter and I found my Helm. Another reason Clique is good, even in Rip-Helm build.
The usage of Moat or Humility is a separate topic, though most people would prefer Moat if they run Angel build, for the obvious synergy reason.
Valid points. I'm certainly inclined to agree with Energy Field being... meh. While it has it's uses, I could see it being cut altogether.
Rest in Peace is something I can't see myself cutting locally; it hedges very well against my local meta. I can't see myself running less than 2 either simply in cases where they deal with one or may have the ability to interrupt my Helm combo.
Currently, Entreat has been the most cuttable card in my version, as it generally doesn't do much work. I could see myself cutting 2 Entreats and a Energy Field to run 3 maindeck Cliques instead, which would work well with my 2 maindeck Karakas. I think I am going to test that and see how it goes. I've played a Clique version for several months, so I feel confident with my ability to play the card and effectively evaluate it in my build.
If it is a local meta choice then that's fine, but just be aware that if you take it to SCG or something bigger then you'll start noticing it to be much more dead weight. There's nothing wrong with running the 2 RIP and the Enlightened Tutor in the SB (or even leaving just the Tutor MD).
RiP is a valid metagame choice, but I think for the expected SCG meta its time has passed - and I say this as one of the huge RiP list supporters. With UWR Delver overtaking Canadian Thresh as the tempo deck of choice, the general value of maindeck graveyard hate is going down and I find myself looking for more general cards in most matchups. I'm even finally back on Snapcaster Mage for the first time in over a year. To make up for the missing ability to win quickly, I've moved my 3rd Entreat main before GP DC and have not looked back. I find most games much easier to close out now, and have not had issues with it clogging my hand if I mulligan reasonably (not I did change the 4th Terminus to a verdict to stay at 6 miracles in the deck).
This is where I'm at now:
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brianstorm
1 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
1 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Force of Will
3 Terminus
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Mystic Gate
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
Sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Wear // Tear
2 Rest in Peace
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Meddling Mage
1 Flusterstorm
1 Porphyry Nodes
I had Moat in the nodes slot for a while but it was not getting the job done and I wanted another cheap answer to tempo and TNN. Nodes has been great there.
I'm debating going back to Disenchant over Wear // Tear because I hate fetching out Volcanic Island vs UWR Delver to kill an equipment and opening myself up to Wasteland, and I've noticed a few others of us are seeing the same thing.
I run a similar list as alphastryk, but -1 Ponder + 1 Plains, -1 Entreat +1 Snapcaster. Echo the same sentiment he has.
The Disenchant vs Wear//Tear is an interesting one, I just wish there were more data for people here to examine. Currently there're no evidence to suggest one way or another.
That makes a lot of sense and I'd likely be doing that or adding the Mountain to my maindeck again if I had that many red cards in the board, but I have never felt the need for that many blasts.
I keep wanting to try the basic mountain, but cracking a fetch against Delver with only 1 other land in play, to grab basic mountain just seems terrible.
It really just depends on the situation you are in. Yeah, doing this doesn't feel good but having only 2 lands is never good, just never. And if you have Island Mountain instead of Island Plains it is fine as long as your removalspells you are going to cast cost R.
Greetings
I feel like I'm very rarely casting REB against tempo before I have a fairly stable mana base already. Even holding an REB, I feel pretty comfortable fetching two Islands and a Plains and then just waiting until I find another fetchland later in the game to use for my Red source. I don't think that having access to a basic Mountain really changes that. Most likely the first three lands that I'd ideally want to have against any Wasteland deck would still be two Islands and a Plains. This lets me cast every important colored spell for the early game against a tempo deck: Brainstorm, Pierce, Counterbalance, Swords, and Terminus (and RIP for RUG).
Past my third or fourth land drop, it doesn't really matter whether I get a Volcanic Island or a Mountain because 1) I am safely out of range of being Wastelanded out of the game, and 2) I am probably casting an REB in order to resolve a game-breaking spell anyways, so go ahead and Wasteland me, let's see you play from under a Counterbalance. If they can't Wasteland my 4th or 5th land because it is a Mountain instead of a Volcanic Island then that doesn't stop them from Wasting the next Tundra, Volcanic, Karakas, or Mystic Gate that I happen to draw. Either way, I can likely expect to be Wastelanded at least once or twice on my way to the ideal ~6 lands that I'd like in play by the end of a tempo game.
The point is that the color composition of my lands matters a whole lot more for the first three drops than the last three. Operating under ideal circumstances (access to a lot of basics), I do not want Mountain early because it doesn't cast Counterbalance (or Clique). Under less than ideal circumstances (very few basics), a Volcanic Island that I draw can at least cast Counterbalance. At worst, if I'm sitting on Island, Volcanic, Tundra and they draw Wasteland then 1) They cannot cut me offand 2) perhaps they will mistakenly overvalue the Red source. Having Island, Mountain, Tundra not only makes their choice easy, but also guarantees we are cut off from both
and
Why I feel like the Disenchant verses Wear//Tear argument is slightly different than REB is because sometimes we do not have the luxury of sitting on our artifact removal until turn X like we can with REB. A SoFI or SoFF demands an answer as soon as we can produce one, and if that answer is required on turn 3 then I'm finding that I'd rather be fetching a Plains than a Volcanic (or a Mountain for that matter). If Enchantments (especially Choke) were more prevalent then we could talk, but if Wear//Tear is going to be a Shatter 90% of the time then I'd rather it be a Shatter that costs
I agree on the Disenchant over Wear/Tear. I suppose now that the prominent Delver deck has no Stifle the mana base wars aren't so prominent. I personally don't even board Blasts in against RUG, since I consider the real fight to be over your land drops, and Volcanic is just a liability. Of course, I have two Flusterstorms that I bring in.I feel like I'm very rarely casting REB against tempo before I have a fairly stable mana base already. Even holding an REB, I feel pretty comfortable fetching two Islands and a Plains and then just waiting until I find another fetchland later in the game to use for my Red source. I don't think that having access to a basic Mountain really changes that. Most likely the first three lands that I'd ideally want to have against any Wasteland deck would still be two Islands and a Plains. This lets me cast every important colored spell for the early game against a tempo deck: Brainstorm, Pierce, Counterbalance, Swords, and Terminus (and RIP for RUG).
Past my third or fourth land drop, it doesn't really matter whether I get a Volcanic Island or a Mountain because 1) I am safely out of range of being Wastelanded out of the game, and 2) I am probably casting an REB in order to resolve a game-breaking spell anyways, so go ahead and Wasteland me, let's see you play from under a Counterbalance. If they can't Wasteland my 4th or 5th land because it is a Mountain instead of a Volcanic Island then that doesn't stop them from Wasting the next Tundra, Volcanic, Karakas, or Mystic Gate that I happen to draw. Either way, I can likely expect to be Wastelanded at least once or twice on my way to the ideal ~6 lands that I'd like in play by the end of a tempo game.
The point is that the color composition of my lands matters a whole lot more for the first three drops than the last three. Operating under ideal circumstances (access to a lot of basics), I do not want Mountain early because it doesn't cast Counterbalance (or Clique). Under less than ideal circumstances (very few basics), a Volcanic Island that I draw can at least cast Counterbalance. At worst, if I'm sitting on Island, Volcanic, Tundra and they draw Wasteland then 1) They cannot cut me off
Why I feel like the Disenchant verses Wear//Tear argument is slightly different than REB is because sometimes we do not have the luxury of sitting on our artifact removal until turn X like we can with REB. A SoFI or SoFF demands an answer as soon as we can produce one, and if that answer is required on turn 3 then I'm finding that I'd rather be fetching a Plains than a Volcanic (or a Mountain for that matter). If Enchantments (especially Choke) were more prevalent then we could talk, but if Wear//Tear is going to be a Shatter 90% of the time then I'd rather it be a Shatter that costs
I've had more than one instance of needing to fetch a Volcanic Island using my last available land drop in order to Wear an incoming SoFI even though they already had Wasteland on board (against both UWR Delver as well as Bant). The Volcanic itself is not the liability, the problem is having to fetch it early and when you would really rather not.
Yep - that's exactly what's come up for me. I have fused Wear and Tear exactly twice in the entire time I've played it, and I've been out a land for no reason twice in the last ~8 matches I've played. I'll be going back to Disenchant this week and I'll see how it goes.
About the basic mountain and the rebs;I feel like I'm very rarely casting REB against tempo before I have a fairly stable mana base already. Even holding an REB, I feel pretty comfortable fetching two Islands and a Plains and then just waiting until I find another fetchland later in the game to use for my Red source. I don't think that having access to a basic Mountain really changes that. Most likely the first three lands that I'd ideally want to have against any Wasteland deck would still be two Islands and a Plains. This lets me cast every important colored spell for the early game against a tempo deck: Brainstorm, Pierce, Counterbalance, Swords, and Terminus (and RIP for RUG).
Past my third or fourth land drop, it doesn't really matter whether I get a Volcanic Island or a Mountain because 1) I am safely out of range of being Wastelanded out of the game, and 2) I am probably casting an REB in order to resolve a game-breaking spell anyways, so go ahead and Wasteland me, let's see you play from under a Counterbalance. If they can't Wasteland my 4th or 5th land because it is a Mountain instead of a Volcanic Island then that doesn't stop them from Wasting the next Tundra, Volcanic, Karakas, or Mystic Gate that I happen to draw. Either way, I can likely expect to be Wastelanded at least once or twice on my way to the ideal ~6 lands that I'd like in play by the end of a tempo game.
The point is that the color composition of my lands matters a whole lot more for the first three drops than the last three. Operating under ideal circumstances (access to a lot of basics), I do not want Mountain early because it doesn't cast Counterbalance (or Clique). Under less than ideal circumstances (very few basics), a Volcanic Island that I draw can at least cast Counterbalance. At worst, if I'm sitting on Island, Volcanic, Tundra and they draw Wasteland then 1) They cannot cut me off
Why I feel like the Disenchant verses Wear//Tear argument is slightly different than REB is because sometimes we do not have the luxury of sitting on our artifact removal until turn X like we can with REB. A SoFI or SoFF demands an answer as soon as we can produce one, and if that answer is required on turn 3 then I'm finding that I'd rather be fetching a Plains than a Volcanic (or a Mountain for that matter). If Enchantments (especially Choke) were more prevalent then we could talk, but if Wear//Tear is going to be a Shatter 90% of the time then I'd rather it be a Shatter that costs
Against RUG-delver I will no longer side in my ReB's because I will rarely fetch a mountain or a volcanic island anyway. Instead I opt to go Island, plains, Island to be able to go stoneforge/cb during the first turns.
However. Against URW-delver it's TOTALLY different. That deck is slower and doesn't pack stifle which is an enormous difference from RUG. Because the curve is rather flat I firmly belive that removing ALL counterbalances (together with i.e counterspell and force of will, which is pretty common) is the correct approach for miracles. Their decks is FAR less stacked with playables than for example RUG and as long as you can sweep every now and then you will end up in a spot where you have REB for their follow up TNN and/or to protect your jace. In this matchup a mountain is a must and without CB you don't have to go UU until very late.
makes no sense in removing cb. Spend a mass removal because one TNN is still a bad trade. I don't see why you would diminish the possibility of CB flipping a Clique to stop TNN from resolving.
Yeah, I agree. REB is obviously great against UWR, but I would never take out Counterbalance. Having CBTop online makes the matchup infinitely easier. I usually take out FoWs and Jaces against them.
evidently, Joe's most recent Miracle list has moved RiP to the SB, no surprise there, replacing them with 1 Snapcaster. He now has 2 blasts MD, more blasts in the SB, moves some StP to SB as well.
If he's on the forum, would be great if he could reiterate, though he most likely mentioned it in the streaming video.
I gave it some thoughts, and believe that's the trend right now. I am aware that BUG Delver won SCG Orlando, but the overall number of RUG and BUG are on the decline, the WUR Stoneblades and Esper Stoneblades are what's trendy right now. Like what he said in the video, as long as no early Dark Confidant, we should be fine. Interestingly enough, with the current meta, Flashback Blast using Snapcaster is such a key play, especially against TNN or Jace.
Have you guys test this?
Seemed pretty silly, running maindeck red blasts. It's not as if the payoff is some insane blowout victory; it's just an extra counterspell. And it's a stone cold blank against 6 of the top 16 decks from the last open:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12653
I never liked Snapcaster in actual control decks. Joe only has 10 cards that can be flashed back, compared to the 13 or 14 that most of the Snapcaster builds have. It feels like a very late game card, especially when Brainstorm isn't a card you fire off turn 1. He replaced a Sword to Plowshares with it, but I think it's closer to a 4th Jace, really.
The only thing I can think of is that he's doing some intense meta-gaming. I wouldn't MD REBs at a big tournament, but I've definitely thought about it locally. Maybe it's a solid call for MTGO at the moment?
I'd also be interested to hear what people board out for the UWR Delver MU. I've been siding out FoWs and Jaces, but I really hate siding Jace out. Having all the removal seems good. Entreat seems good. Cliques seem good. Is Jace really the right call?
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