[Primer] Elves!

[Lemnear]

The list is so far out there and is worse than what we have now. It should not be used as a starting point for lists with 4 natural orders.

What should be used as a base discussion for a 4 natural order list is the generally agreed upon list to within a card or two that has been placing competitively for months. The only change that is being discussed is +1 natural order -1 something.

There's no need to make a brand new direct downgrade list for the purpose of discussing a change of ONE card.

Is that a problem? Cut the 4th Hertiage for the 4th natural Order or your third NO target in the Main

@Matty:
If you cut all Hertiages, you can cut the Nettles as well. The whole combo-package of Nettle/Heritage/Glimpse could basically be removed once you chop a complete part of those three

[yaWgnorW]

The list is so far out there and is worse than what we have now. It should not be used as a starting point for lists with 4 natural orders.

What should be used as a base discussion for a 4 natural order list is the generally agreed upon list to within a card or two that has been placing competitively for months. The only change that is being discussed is +1 natural order -1 something.

There's no need to make a brand new direct downgrade list for the purpose of discussing a change of ONE card.

Not sure this is that much of a problem. If I'm correct the forum is also here for those to learn whats optimal / suboptimal. While most of us are experienced and would rather not discuss the obvious suboptimal things, for those less experienced or just new in general we wouldn't want to hinder any development into the game. I think trying new things is one of the best ways not only too learn, but to understand how to tell first hand whats going to good, mediocre, or bad.

Is that a problem? Cut the 4th Hertiage for the 4th natural Order or your third NO target in the Main

@Matty:
If you cut all Hertiages, you can cut the Nettles as well. The whole combo-package of Nettle/Heritage/Glimpse could basically be removed once you chop a complete part of those three

@Matty, I agree, if you do cut Heritage, I'd cut the Nettles as well and then just remove your Glimpses. You'd be on your own however in trying something new. While Birchlore allows for those turn 2s, Heritage druid + nettle are the real glimpse mana engines. You take one of the three out and you greatly hinder the power of the other 2. If you go this route I'd look at ways to make your deck more optimal to use the NO plan.

If you just wanted to add a 4th NO to the main, I see no issue an the 4th Heritage getting dropped. I've been playing on 3 Heritage Druids for a couple weeks now ...in favor or a regular mana dork however.

[Havoc]

1 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
1 Progenitus
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Harmonic Sliver

This is the 4 NO list I'm running right now. I've only lost 2 rounds in the 3 weeks I've been running it and that playing every Saturday with 15-20 players. If there was more ANT or heavy combo were I live if change the graveyard hate out for thorns but right now a lot of people are on a reanimator and dark depths kick so I need the hate. With this list having the 4th NO has never hindered me. Even against control when it shows up they can't keep burning counters on the NO because I can just hard cast the hoof if they can't kill me quick enough.

[B4L4]

If there was more ANT or heavy combo were I live if change the graveyard hate out for thorns but right now a lot of people are on a reanimator and dark depths kick so I need the hate.

Sounds like a good meta to bring back some copies of crop rotation alongside with karakas & bojuka bog.

[Havoc]

Sounds like a good meta to bring back some copies of crop rotation alongside with karakas & bojuka bog.

I'm not a fan of that version unfortunately. I know it's better than all the graveyard I like not having to worry about keeping mana up. I haven't had a problem even running 2 cages. I know that's horrible ad I'm a bad elves player for it but it's true lol.

[Zombie]

More goldfishing fun. Kill, or pump everything for +24/+24, then kill with 150-something left over? No kill like overdosing on overkill:


TIMMYYY!!

[yaWgnorW]

More goldfishing fun. Kill, or pump everything for +24/+24, then kill with 150-something left over? No kill like overdosing on overkill:


TIMMYYY!!

I actually had a game vs a UWR player where I had more sick elves than non-sick, and I needed to NO twice for the win that turn (Double Hoof). I wish I could remember the numbers behind it.

[common]

The list is so far out there and is worse than what we have now. It should not be used as a starting point for lists with 4 natural orders.

What should be used as a base discussion for a 4 natural order list is the generally agreed upon list to within a card or two that has been placing competitively for months. The only change that is being discussed is +1 natural order -1 something.

There's no need to make a brand new direct downgrade list for the purpose of discussing a change of ONE card.

As an elf lover, this thread sees more of my attention than any other on this site. That being said: this attitude is why I do mostly reading on here and little posting.

As a longtime player but more of a spectator nowadays due to little ones, the constant new release of rules, sets and strategies make this a tenuous game to keep up with at best; if you aren't actively playing you're behind the curve. I eagerly await the limited opportunities I have to play, but God forbid I have a question or a far-out idea that is working for me - if it isn't winning tournaments, it must be wrong!

SMH, the Miracle Control deck list Hanni has in DTB was something he and others worked on and tinkered with years ago. I distinctly remember it being scoffed at, and while I couldn't ever do better than .500 in the few times I played with it before I had to quit, I could tell it had potential. Wonderful to come back a few years later and BOOM! it's kicking ass.

This thread is well written and thoughtful, designed to help Elves beat ass. Keep it that way. Ignoring someone's contribution, while not helpful to them, is okay. Slamming them for it isn't.

Sorry for the off-topic post. Carry on.

[Atikin]

As an elf lover, this thread sees more of my attention than any other on this site. That being said: this attitude is why I do mostly reading on here and little posting.

As a longtime player but more of a spectator nowadays due to little ones, the constant new release of rules, sets and strategies make this a tenuous game to keep up with at best; if you aren't actively playing you're behind the curve. I eagerly await the limited opportunities I have to play, but God forbid I have a question or a far-out idea that is working for me - if it isn't winning tournaments, it must be wrong!

SMH, the Miracle Control deck list Hanni has in DTB was something he and others worked on and tinkered with years ago. I distinctly remember it being scoffed at, and while I couldn't ever do better than .500 in the few times I played with it before I had to quit, I could tell it had potential. Wonderful to come back a few years later and BOOM! it's kicking ass.

This thread is well written and thoughtful, designed to help Elves beat ass. Keep it that way. Ignoring someone's contribution, while not helpful to them, is okay. Slamming them for it isn't.

Sorry for the off-topic post. Carry on.

As you can see I also generally dont post either. However, when a thread has several pages in a row of crappy suggestions and useless discussion it starts to get old. Half the discussion in the pages leading up to that post was us trying to convince new comers to read the primer, discussing the miniscule probability where fierce empath actually does anything, and other things. I decided to release the brunt of my frustration in that post, and unfortunately it was targeted at a single user despite being not being entirely his fault. My apologies to matty.

People need to seriously think and analyze their suggestions before posting. Construct an argument for you case of x vs y and think it through first so we can have some productive discussion. Instead people are simply posting random suggestions without explanations to their choices, and minimal productive discussion for this as a competitive deck is occurring.

[Echelon]

On another note...

I think we may want to get ready to deal with Spirit of the Labyrinth pretty soon. Looking at the current meta, it gives D&T a lot of utility against anything running Brainstorm/Ponder and, more importantly, also stops both our BFF-team and Glimpse of Nature dead in their respective tracks so I can certainly see them running a couple of those.

We have a number of Abrupt Decays in our SB to potentially deal with it, but without library manipulation, will it be enough to deal with a Spirit actually hitting the field? Might it be worth it to dip into white a bit so we can also have a couple of Zealous Persecutions in our SB? It would also be great in the mirror and coincidentally can kill TNN, Grim Lavamancer, Mother of Runes, Goblin Welder and any other annoying x/1 I'm forgetting to mention.

Or we might want to start running the GW sliver/cat wizard again, since the Spirit is an enchantment as well.

Thoughts on this, anyone? (And yes, I know this is purely speculation a.t.m. since that card isn't even out yet)

[Kayradis]

Gut Shot.

[Lemnear]

Gut Shot.

Dread of Night

[Yanley]

I don't think we should be THAT afraid of the new white bear since we win the D&T matchup with an NO-Progenitus plan. Correct me if i'm wrong as well but I'd be more worried about Canonist over the new spirit bear any time.

[Kayradis]

canonist is plain better than the new white 3/1
It will be a fringe SB card.

[Lighning Bebbi]

I don't think we should be THAT afraid of the new white bear since we win the D&T matchup with an NO-Progenitus plan. Correct me if i'm wrong as well but I'd be more worried about Canonist over the new spirit bear any time.

If they don't have Aven Mindcensor or Grafdigger's Cage or something like Wing Shards... you're right.

[Echelon]

Yup. Most elf builds run a Viridian Shaman in the main a.t.m, which allows you to deal with Cannonnists most of the time

[Arsenal]

Yup. Most elf builds run a Viridian Shaman in the main a.t.m, which allows you to deal with Cannonnists most of the time

I don't understand, are you implying Viridian Shaman will do something against Spirit of the Labyrinth? Because it won't.

Also, although you still have Natural Order and Green Sun's Zenith to work around Spirit of the Labyrinth, those decks will often times be running Mother of Runes. Turn 1 Mother of Runes, turn 2 Spirit of the Labyrinth is going to be a fairly common opener and that completely shuts off your Glimpse and Symbiote-Visionary draw engines; Abrupt Decay can't even bring you back in that situation due to Mother of Runes.

[TsumiBand]

The issue with easily answering Spirit of the Labyrinth is less a 1-to-1 question as White Weenie strategies come closer to what many players have agreed its most potent incarnation would putatively be - prison aggro.
As with other prison decks it is a race between your Voltron and theirs - but really you do have to take Mother of Runes, Aven Mindcensor and possibly Ethersworn Canonist into consideration. It's probable that Golgari Charm is a stronger answer than Abrupt Decay or Gut Shot. You'll still need to resolve against Canonist, maybe, but it becomes a tad more academic at that point.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Arsenal]

Dark Maverick that often brings in Zealous Persecution seems to be rough for Elves too if Spirit of the Labyrinth is out. They're then just one GSZ -> Gaddock Teeg away from completely locking you out.

[Dice_Box]

For some reason, I am really not that worried. After all the tough games I have pulled though with this deck, I have faith we can make it past this intact. Also it makes Swan Song an auto include.