[Deck] 12 Post

[Rock Lee]

If you're ever worried enough about Death and Taxes to go back to the RUG version you might consider running Fire // Ice instead of Bonfire, as it still keeps your blue count up for FoW.

Fire is definitely beast against both elves and DnT, while still having game vs SFM. If I do go red I will likely substitute Fire/Ice over Bolt.

Hopefully won't come to that though. The U/G version is serving me magnificently.

I will wait to see if DnT drops Mirran Crusader, which would make Fire//Ice an incredible 2-for-1 always.

[TimHarding]

Would be great to hear some ideas from Rock Lee or TimHarding on how they side against Esper?

I sided in Chasmn and Totems...

I rarely have issues with esper. It is worth mentioning that gsz and oracle are very dead vs them, so a more streamlined list helps against them. You race to Show-> Titan vs them, since they should be vindicating and wasting your hand away, but with heavy-enough cantrip/fixing, they can't discard you enough.

I also wouldn't bring in cursed totem vs them. It only hits stoneforge, which batterskull-withstanding, only cuts them off from 1-2 mana. And you WANT them to be abusing batterskull, since repeal undoes 4 mana and 2 turns for them.

Sounds more like you lost to mulligans and them having optimal hands than anything in particular. Although vs a good pilot of any archetype, you do need to play optimally with this deck.

First congrats to both on the great showings! Nice work. We seem to have some level of agreement on how to attack the format right now, and I'm sure you're enjoying it! I like both your lists a lot.

Regarding Esperblade: I agree with Rock Lee's comments. To me it also sounds like some bad beats, with the draws and pressure. If they go aggro (which is probably their best bet) tripping up can easily become a game loss. The snapcaster is definitely something to be weary of, I randomly lost to an EOT Notion Theif once, because I didn't know it was a 3/1 haha such JANK. You want to punish them for not respecting SnT when they do this. This matchup doesn't require any significant boarding. However, if I notice that their list is bent far in one direction, I might adjust to play style. For example, if I sense/see spell pierce in multiples, or lack of wasteland. I will often side out some or all crop rotations (not extreme because I play maps) for some counters of my own - Force or Fluster.

Patriot: I'll probably take out bog, Oracle, some Crop for some Counters. Often I'm on the island plan for this one.
StoneBlade: I'll keep the Oracle and explain in a minute. But if they are counter heavy I'll consider crop out for counters.
Deathblade: On the play I'll actually put in the totems. Probably shaving an eldrazi and candle. It's pretty great, though not entirely necessary.

These are among our best matchups, so these are all micro adjustments, if I sense a card not carrying its weight.
I want EVERY game to see at least 1 repeal, it is almost always the difference maker.


Now for Oracle. Ive had one in my 75 for months straight, and I love it. I want a 5th "titan effect", but I don't feel like playing more Vesuva and Candelabra to support GSZ (as my testing suggests), so there is oracle. Mainly there to be king against abrupt decay/hymn decks. It is an intermediate ramp spell, that actually adds another rogue win to the deck - the other being the mono colorless land>map>land>candle>land>eldrazi threat. If you untap with Oracle and a manipulation against a non-combo deck, you have basically won the game. Doubly if you have a shuffle effect. Of course if you are facing lightning bolt you should have pondered or topped before casting to get the two lands with priority held. I have even had positive testing with it against combo decks, abusing supreme library filtering to keep the counterspell lock going against Omni and other decks that take a long time to win over.

Now for sideboarding against blade variants. I actually leave it in, and my reason is sort of shotty, but seems to work. If they saw it game 1, they might now hesitate to side out as much creature removal as before. I'm into the idea of swords to plowshares games 2 and 3 lol. If they didn't see it, they probably sided out more removal, and are likely to get blown out by it. I've surveyed people after games who noted the tension it created. I only really side it out against elves and patriot delver/blade which has 8 1 mana removal, daze and pressure.

So if you get your reps in with it, early library stacking and correct timing really adds another dimension to the deck.

Repeal takes care of everything. If you are in an Aggro-Infested meta then you shouldn't be playing sweepers since they are too fast, but rather cards like Elephant Grass or use the red splash.

The only time I would include sweepers back into the list would be if one was printed that hit combo in some form.

I played O Stone when omni was the only pony in town. Tabernacle when only Storm. And bonfire when I mostly feared Elves.

Since the combo meta is too varied at the moment, a sweeper does not help.

If Merfolk becomes dominant then I will add sweepers again, as they were the only permanent based deck that required them.

Together I think these make the perfect assessment of sweeper's position for us right now. I think focusing on repeal, needle and winning are the right things to be spending mana on right now.

If you're ever worried enough about Death and Taxes to go back to the RUG version you might consider running Fire // Ice instead of Bonfire, as it still keeps your blue count up for FoW.

AMEN. This card had me closer to splashing red than any other. This card is my pick for most underplayed in legacy.

The DnT addition is obnoxious, and I agree it will further propel their deck into tier 1. I do feel the island build can absorb this, with the aid of Gut Shot, if it comes to it.


Anyone going to be at Baltimore SCG? My list will be close to what I posted before, postman's and rock lee's.

[Davek]

Still having troubles against one the dumbest deck ever made, jund. Yesterday i tested a bit on cockatrice and it was atrocious. T1 thoughtseize, T2 Hymn, T3 bob + wasteland, T4 goyf + wasteland, T5 goyf + Thoughtseize... Ok, this may have been a nutty hand, but it's not so impossible for jund to do things like this quite often. Ponder can help a bit but it won't save you from early pressure (expecially if they keep wasting away your colored lands). Any suggestion?

[Ralf]

Still having troubles against one the dumbest deck ever made, jund. Yesterday i tested a bit on cockatrice and it was atrocious. T1 thoughtseize, T2 Hymn, T3 bob + wasteland, T4 goyf + wasteland, T5 goyf + Thoughtseize... Ok, this may have been a nutty hand, but it's not so impossible for jund to do things like this quite often. Ponder can help a bit but it won't save you from early pressure (expecially if they keep wasting away your colored lands). Any suggestion?

If Jund/discard is heavy in your meta, I could suggest you to try "divert"x4 instead of Fluster/Swan (1/2 split).
Basically, against Jund you ABSOLUTELY need a top (at least some library manipulation) within the few first turns and hope to jamm'in a huge threat by turn 3 with SnT and pray hard that he does not have Lili in hands...

[Rock Lee]

Still having troubles against one the dumbest deck ever made, jund. Yesterday i tested a bit on cockatrice and it was atrocious. T1 thoughtseize, T2 Hymn, T3 bob + wasteland, T4 goyf + wasteland, T5 goyf + Thoughtseize... Ok, this may have been a nutty hand, but it's not so impossible for jund to do things like this quite often. Ponder can help a bit but it won't save you from early pressure (expecially if they keep wasting away your colored lands). Any suggestion?

If Jund/discard is heavy in your meta, I could suggest you to try "divert"x4 instead of Fluster/Swan (1/2 split).
Basically, against Jund you ABSOLUTELY need a top (at least some library manipulation) within the few first turns and hope to jamm'in a huge threat by turn 3 with SnT and pray hard that he does not have Lili in hands...

If you truly fear Jund, then SB x3 Submerge. However I have found that adding consistency and keeping hands that have multiple avenues of of victory or no paths is a better plan.

I have been tinkering with Dismember over the Gut Shot slot, which would allow flex'ing into other matchups like Jund.

[203995014]

How would a RUG list look if you were to use one now?

Also how has Dismember been? Is the -5/-5 killing a creature worth losing 4 life in a deck that falls dead to aggro?

I also really like the idea of replacing Bonfire of the Damned with Fire // Ice! Much less mana intensive, it is blue, and has much more utility!

[Rock Lee]

This is the version I would play RUG with. I have tinkered with it myself, and found it not lacking at all. Very strong, just not as resilient against Loam lock or Knight.

// Lands
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [LRW] Island (1)
3 [R] Tropical Island
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [R] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [US] Show and Tell
4 [M12] Ponder
3 [AVR] Bonfire of the Damned
2 [ZEN] Expedition Map
2 [AP] Fire/Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

[kingtk3]

Generic question: is vesuva required for this deck?

I notice that most lists run 2, 3 at best: do you think it can be dropped for the sake of playing three colors and having a more stable mana base?

I'm on my cell now, I'll post my RUG list later.

Sent from my mobile, forgive me for grammar errors.

[Mockingbird]

Generic question: is vesuva required for this deck?

I notice that most lists run 2, 3 at best: do you think it can be dropped for the sake of playing three colors and having a more stable mana base?

Kind of. We're only allowed 4 Cloudposts per deck, and Vesuva lets us get around that rule as well as getting around the idea that our opponents only have up to 4 Wastelands to kill our four Cloudposts (sans the exceptions that I am aware of). Vesuva has tipped out of favor though for the reason you mention: we need colors and more stable mana to rather than more than lands that just explode with colorless mana. However, this tipping point has thus far only meant fewer Vesuvas, not no Vesuvas. Vesuva can copy and has copied more than Cloudpost. The deck is flexible enough that it can copy colored sources as well as Utility lands (namely Bojuka Bog and to effective reset Glacial Chasm), so I don't think that cutting it altogether is justified... yet.

Feel free to test just 8 Post and let us know whether or not you like not just the results but also how it plays.

[Darkenslight]

An interesting card from the Release Notes:

Courser of Kruphix
Enchantment Creature - Centaur (R)
Play with the top card of your library revealed.
You may play the top card of your library if it's a land card.
Whenever a land ETB under your control, gain 1 life.
2/4

This is the most likely deck, aside from Lands, to play this card in Legacy. What do you guys think?

[Davek]

I'm debated. At first sight it looks great compared to oracle, a better body, better ability and a lesser cc. A more specific one, though, thet could make it quite hard to cast, expecially on turn 3 if not supported by a candelabra. Plus, usually oracle is employed in facing abrupt_decay.decks because it can't be targeted to their catch-all removal, while this thing falls dead. I think it will deserve some test though.

[Monkey_Island]

Unlike Oracle of Mul Daya, it doesn't allow you to play an additional land... That + the double G + Abrupt Decay makes it worthless in my opinion.

[kingtk3]

The only Pro I see is that it doesn't die to lightning bolt, but the downsides are more relevant I think

Sent from my mobile, forgive me for grammar errors.

[That nice guy]

Generic question: is vesuva required for this deck?

I notice that most lists run 2, 3 at best: do you think it can be dropped for the sake of playing three colors and having a more stable mana base?

I'm on my cell now, I'll post my RUG list later.

Sent from my mobile, forgive me for grammar errors.

2 Vesuva is Key. It also let you do play like Croprotate in response to stuff like waste to copy a key land like glacial / Bog. Also, Under bloodmoon you can copy a basic!

An interesting card from the Release Notes:

Courser of Kruphix
Enchantment Creature - Centaur (R)
Play with the top card of your library revealed.
You may play the top card of your library if it's a land card.
Whenever a land ETB under your control, gain 1 life.
2/4

This is the most likely deck, aside from Lands, to play this card in Legacy. What do you guys think?

One of the benifits of the deck is artificial card advantage since you don't care about swords, which this guy will eat. It's in decay range, and it DOESN'T say "extra land per turn", and it dies to enchantment removal. This guy sucks.

[Davek]

You're right guys, i misread it. So no, oracle is superior.

[kingtk3]

This is the RUG version I'm testing right now:

MAIN
Search and Manipulation 14
3 sensei's divining top
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
1 expedition map
3 crop rotation

Removals 10
4 repeal
3 fire // ice
3 bonfire of the damned

Ramp 8
1 candelabra of tawnos
3 show and tell
4 primeval titan

Monsters 3
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
1 ulamog, the infinite gyre
1 kozilek, butcher of truth

Lands 25
4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
1 vesuva
3 tropical island
3 volcanic island
2 island
1 forest
1 karakas
1 eye of ugin
4 misty rainforest
1 scalding tarn

SIDE
4 force of will
3 swan song
2 flusterstorm
2 venser, shaper savant
1 glacial chasm
2 pithing needle
1 bojuka bog


The list is very similar to the one posted above by Rock Lee, and the spells are basically the same I played in my last tournament with the following changes:

• -1 sensei's divining top, +1 expedition map because tops in multiple aren't good, especially if you don't have a shuffle effect, and sometimes you need a specific land
• -1 show and tell, +1 candelabra: they are both ramp spells in this deck each with its merits and downsides (I won't dissert over them, I'm sure you all know, but I can explain further if needed), but I found S&T to sit in my hand without a creature to cheat a little bit too much. Moreover it must be taken in account that it benefits the opponent too and that is unplayable against some decks (Reanimator, Sneak&Show). Candelabra, while not being so powerful, couples better with eldrazis, enables some nice tricks with cib tapped lands, provides you with double G even with a single forest in play (very relevant in a 3 color build) and lets you cast bonfire for crazy damage. And, most importantly, I've just acquired my first candelabra for a set of wasteland (I had one spare) and some cash, so I HAVE to try it ^_^
• -3 lightning bolt, +3 fire/ice: I want to try those for the points raised in the posts above; I'm doubtful of its utility on the draw though. Being a blue card certanly holds its merits, but I think ot would be sided out in the match when you bring in force of will.

I worked a bit on the mana base for making it more resilient: -1 tropical island (I played 4 initially), +1 forest and -1 vesuva, +1 island.

What I like: having access to 3 basic lands helps against loam decks (I'm contemplating to switch an island for a mountain, but I don't want to have too few blue sources).
What I don't like: loosing the second vesuva and bojuka bog main deck :(

Some words on the red splash: I have sleeved up the UG version and played a few games, surely too few to gain a deep knowledge of that version, but I always felt in danger with only 4 repeals as "removals". Red gives me the removals I need to slow the game enough to reach inevitability, in addition to bonfire that becomes itself a win condition in late game. Maybe this version fits more my stile, but I feel more like trying to improve the manabase (which is its greatest flaw) than switching to the UG version.

I'll try this at a tournament asap, which will not occur too early due to work.

Any criticism is welcomed, especially on the side: I would like to have more grave hate, for example.

[That nice guy]

Just won the Newington, CT SCG Super IQ 1k with this list:

// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [US] Show and Tell
3 [M12] Ponder
2 [10E] Pithing Needle
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 4 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [RLM] Glacial Chasm
SB: 1 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 1 [8E] Ensnaring Bridge

I will supply a brief report soon, but figured I would throw out a list for chewing sake.
Matchups were BUG delver, UWR delver, Bant, ID, ID, Top 8 Storm, Top 4 Elves, Finals URW delver (same player from swiss)

@ Rock Lee or whoever is actually good at this.
1. How necessary are the maps? I run this list minus 2 Map, + 1 Ponder +1Glasial Chasm. What do you think? I find that ponder will find what you need.
2. Also, what would you think about going from 1 to dropping 2 top for two Force of Will?
2.5 And if I do #2 adding a drop of 2 Honey to the side?

[Rock Lee]

@ Rock Lee or whoever is actually good at this.
1. How necessary are the maps? I run this list minus 2 Map, + 1 Ponder +1Glasial Chasm. What do you think? I find that ponder will find what you need.
2. Also, what would you think about going from 1 to dropping 2 top for two Force of Will?
2.5 And if I do #2 adding a drop of 2 Honey to the side?

I ran three events sans-maps, and greatly regretted it. At the largest of the events, my two losses in the swiss were related to poor land availability. One to Affinity where I was digging for chasm and had to crop for it, when map-playing it and then crop'ing it away eot could have won me the game. The other game was a complete lack of colored mana against Enchantress, where map would have won me the game multiple ways, either via producing colored mana or by getting me Ugin. I then put map back in the main and won the two next events.

I tried several builds with fow main, and ultimately needle main solved the same purpose and more. The deck deals with permanents already when streamlined with maps/x12 cantrip/filter, Thus you only need help against combo or lock (waste/chalice). Pithing Needle hits the best combo decks and waste lock, with the only difficulty being chalice + waste (Aggro Loam/MUD) or chalice + combo (virtually nonexistant).

Drop of Honey is becoming more and more interesting to me again. Especially if DnT goes bonkers with Brimaz and Spirit printing, with merfolk always needing to be considered, and Drop of Honey killing True-Name, all of these are viable pluses for the card yet again.

[Postman]

I ran three events sans-maps, and greatly regretted it. At the largest of the events, my two losses in the swiss were related to poor land availability. One to Affinity where I was digging for chasm and had to crop for it, when map-playing it and then crop'ing it away eot could have won me the game. The other game was a complete lack of colored mana against Enchantress, where map would have won me the game multiple ways, either via producing colored mana or by getting me Ugin. I then put map back in the main and won the two next events.

I tried several builds with fow main, and ultimately needle main solved the same purpose and more. The deck deals with permanents already when streamlined with maps/x12 cantrip/filter, Thus you only need help against combo or lock (waste/chalice). Pithing Needle hits the best combo decks and waste lock, with the only difficulty being chalice + waste (Aggro Loam/MUD) or chalice + combo (virtually nonexistant).

Drop of Honey is becoming more and more interesting to me again. Especially if DnT goes bonkers with Brimaz and Spirit printing, with merfolk always needing to be considered, and Drop of Honey killing True-Name, all of these are viable pluses for the card yet again.

Wantend to ask a question anyway: Atm I'm brainstorming about my "oracle-slot", having a few ideas:

1: wurmcoil engine
2: thragtusk
3: karn
4: drop of honey (ok, this isn't my idea, but i like it:-) )

Would be great to hear some ideas or even results from testing?

[Rock Lee]

Wantend to ask a question anyway: Atm I'm brainstorming about my "oracle-slot", having a few ideas:

1: wurmcoil engine
2: thragtusk
3: karn
4: drop of honey (ok, this isn't my idea, but i like it:-) )

Would be great to hear some ideas or even results from testing?

All those have been discussed in the past in this thread, but wurmcoil is too expensive, thragtusk was ok, and in a theory-of-fire oriented meta it is good, Karn again is too expensive, although offers far more utility than wurmcoil, but dies to truename 100%, and drop was just discussed.

Keep in mind, I think gut shot is better than all those.